UQ: The answer is not irrelevant because it added to the body of evidence that we had that said the SH had WMD.
M: Irrelevant because it wasn't about WMD, it was about the immediate threat of WMD. Preemptive war is illegal without that threat.
It was about both. The answer is not to wait to get struck before you act.
UQ: Bush never said that Iraq was going to launch WMD at the US in 45 ins.
M: Make it three days. I always said three days till the British came up with 45 minutes. The point is we should have been hit with WMD as soon as we attacked. All those tons of chemicals they knew were there should have hit us right away. You don't roll over and take defeat when they are coming to kill you.
I have no idea why he didn't use them, if he even had any. He didn't use them in the first Gulf War either which kind of nullifies your theory.
UQ: He said Iraq was a threat to the region and our national security.
M: He lied. His neighbors didn't see a threat. Israel, who would have flattened them if they were a threat, didn't see a threat. The Admin didn't see a threat. They invented it to sell a war. We have their words on that, it was what would sell. We saw oil and a New American Century.
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, UAE would disagree.
UQ: He was. (A threat)
M: Rather than repeat he was not a threat, lets clarify. He wasn't a nice guy. He didn't like us. He probably went to bed at night thinking bad thoughts about us. He was somebody who wished us ill so naturally fearful people could feel threatened. He was a threat on that level. He could make the weak at heart loose some sleep. He was not a threat on the level that would justify an illegal war. He posed no immediate threat other than his hostility and our imagination. We had him thoroughly tied down and defanged. Our fear was played upon by the Admin
We had him tied down? Yes for the time being. Two countries were enforcing the no-fly. Sanctions were killing how many of his people? Many countries were trading around the sanctions. Some were calling for the end of sanctions. It was just a matter of time before he was let out of the doghouse.
UQ: A threat to our national security does not necessarily mean LCAC's are rolling onto Miami Beach.
M: Of course not; that is what, a red herring? A threat sufficient to justify preemptive war has to be real and immediate, nothing else but that will do.
No it's not a red herring. It's an attempt to make you see there are more threats to national security than armed force.
UQ: You continue to reference the PNAC, a document(s) that last I heard you've never read. I'll discuss it with you when you have.
M: Still true. I can't read PDF. I have heard it summarized. You can have this point. My summary is good enough for me.
You're summary isn't based in fact and I'm claiming all the points.
UQ: If Bush is a liar prove it.
M: What do you mean by proof? It took 30 years before McGruder finally admitted Nixon ordered the break in. That recent admission is all there is in real eyewitness proof. Everything else was just the appearance of wrong and the fact that Nixon erased the tape. What does it take for you to see that you've been snookered? Proof is something you may not have for years and years and years. You have to rely on instinct, and when you have a pile of irresistible circumstantial evidence, the smell it leaves in your nose. It's all a duck test, see. Proof will come all in good time. But how it could be more obvious now I'll never know.
The same pile of irrestible circumstantial evidence exists that justifies our action. Plus some.
UQ: It certainly appears that we were wrong about a lot of things in Iraq but so were a lot of other people which doesn't lend itself to the theory that we just made all the intel up.
M: This is also irrelevant. You can't start a preemptive war against an immediate threat and then turn around and say OOPS.
It's not irrelevant. It is directly related to the evidence that we had before we started the war. If other countries had come forward and said "they don't have that anymore." this whole situation would have been completely different.
UQ: If we did, so did a lot of other people, in a lot of other countries.
M: Yes but none of those countries started an illegal war.
Neither did we. The argument was never about whether or not he had WMD, it was what to do about it.
UQ: Saddam had a lot of time and chances to do what he was supposed to do. He did not and the rest is history.
M: Yes and what is also history is that the United states squandered 50 years of emphasis on the international rule of law and played cowboy. Bush is
without question the worst President the US has ever had. He has damaged our country immeasurably. He is a disaster.
We squandered nothing. We, and Great Britain, did what needed to be done. Iraq, the Middle East and the world is better because of it.
I don't know why we keep talking about this. It's not like anyone is going to change their mind.
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