Bush says "do not hesitate"

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Ummm, Hello.

I know you are a new poster in here but Laura recently trashed Science, that she and her husband know best and we shouldn't be messing with little embryos and stem cells in the name of healing and science.

She is "The Last Lady" as far as Science and this Country is concerned.

I have to agree. We don't need Laura Bush lecturing us on the merits of science. What did she get her degree in, anyway, how to best serve the Texas man?

Wait let me put a nice smiley emoticon here:

Edit: Well, she does have a degree in Science after all! LIBRARY SCIENCE. hahahahahahahhaaaaaaaa.
Wait, here it comes!

Library Science? What is that exactly? The study of the Dewey Decimal System?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

What's the relevance of that? A senator doesn't have the authority to do anything in that situation, whereas the President is required to. Being "in a state of shock" doesn't imply he would have just sat there for two hours.

Kerry has stated that he sat like a rock, unable to think for 47 minutes after the WTC was hit, and had to be told by the White House to evacuate the building he was in after the Pentagon was hit.

the "Reporting for Duty" battle hardened highly decorated veteran Kerry, didn't have the sense to figure out the building he was in might be a target, after both WTC's are hit, and the Pentagon blows up.

Nice misrepresentation - you really are a proud member of the Lee Atwater School of Campaign Dirty Tricks, eh?

Here is what Sen Kerry actually said:

KERRY: I was in the Capitol. We'd just had a meeting -- we'd just come into a leadership meeting in Tom Daschle's office, looking out at the Capitol. And as I came in, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon. And then word came from the White House, they were evacuating, and we were to evacuate, and so we immediately began the evacuation.

Nothing there about "sitting like a rock" - he and his fellow Senators were trying to keep working in spite of the disaster, but were understandably too distracted to productively do so. They then evacuated when Capitol staffers told them it was time to do so. I can't believe, but I'm not surprised, that rabid partisans like you would try to turn this behavior into something negative.

But the president, even though he had been briefed and orders given to handle the other wayward planes, he is not allowed to keep working with the days current schedule.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: charrison

But the president, even though he had been briefed and orders given to handle the other wayward planes, he is not allowed to keep working with the days current schedule.

He hadn't been briefed, other than having Andrew Card tell him, "A second plane hit the other tower, and America's under attack," nor had he given any orders to handle the other planes. Again, VP Cheney (exceeding his lawful authority, as it turned out, though I think he meant well) ended up giving the order to intercept other hijacked planes over CONUS.

Are you seriously arguing that a 20-minute photo session was the most productive use of the president's time, during the worst-ever attack on American soil? I think more highly of the presidency than that, but I guess reasonable minds may differ . . .

Listen, again, I'm not picking on the President - I think he was put in an incredibly challenging situation, and as it turned out, his inaction didn't have dire consequences. I was definitely, in Sep 01, a huge fan of President Bush. I just think that if we don't acknowledge the failures of the past, we are doomed to repeat them, and his actions that day were, in my view, sub-optimal. I doubt you seriously disagree, but I'm interested to hear your arguments if you do.

There is a comprehensive, well-sourced timeline of President Bush's actions on 9/11 here. Interestingly, it sounds to me as though al Queda made an assassination attempt that morning (essentially similar to the one conducted against the leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan a couple of days earlier), which for whatever reason has not been widely reported.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: charrison

But the president, even though he had been briefed and orders given to handle the other wayward planes, he is not allowed to keep working with the days current schedule.

He hadn't been briefed, other than having Andrew Card tell him, "A second plane has hit the WTC - America is under attack," nor had he given any orders to handle the other planes. Again, VP Cheney (exceeding his lawful authority, as it turned out, though I think he meant well) ended up giving the order to intercept other hijacked planes over CONUS.


He was briefed after the first plane hit the tower, this was before the book reading event started


It appears bush/cheney discussed engagement rules.
linkage





Are you seriously arguing that a 20-minute photo session was the most productive use of the president's time, during the worst-ever attack on American soil? I think more highly of the presidency than that, but I guess reasonable minds may differ . . .


If they had been briefed and orders in place, i dont see an issue. If they had not been briefed and orders not been given, I would agree with you.





Listen, again, I'm not picking on the President - I think he was put in an incredibly challenging situation, and as it turned out, his inaction didn't have dire consequences. I was definitely, in Sep 01, a huge fan of President Bush. I just think that if we don't acknowledge the failures of the past, we are doomed to repeat them, and his actions that day were, in my view, sub-optimal. I doubt you seriously disagree, but I'm interested to hear your arguments if you do.

I would also call 47 minutes of not being able to think sub-optimal.

 

[conjur]

"Pursuant to the president's instructions, I gave authorization for them to be taken out," Cheney told Rumsfeld, who was at the Pentagon. Informing Rumsfeld that the fighter pilots had received orders to fire, Cheney added, "It's my understanding they've already taken a couple of aircraft out."

Cheney's comments, which were soon proved erroneous, were detailed in a report issued yesterday by the commission investigating the terrorist attacks. The comments are part of the considerable confusion that surrounded top government officials as the tense drama unfolded.

The commission's description of actions taken by Cheney and President Bush, based in part on interviews with both men, provides new details of that morning. The report portrays the vice president taking command from his bunker while Bush, who was in Florida, communicated with the White House in a series of phone calls, and occasionally had trouble getting through.

Cheney, who told the commission he was operating on instructions from Bush given in a phone call, issued authority for aircraft threatening Washington to be shot down. But the commission noted that "among the sources that reflect other important events that morning there is no documentary evidence for this call, although the relevant sources are incomplete." Those sources include people nearby taking notes, such as Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, and Cheney's wife, Lynne.

hmmmmm

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: charrison

charrison:

Did you even read the article you linked? here is the relevant portion:

Bush remained in the classroom for "five to seven minutes" after learning of the second crash as the children around him continued reading. He had his first conversation with Cheney at about 9:15. Those traveling with the president did not know other aircraft were missing, the commission reported.

Communications with Washington were so poor that Bush, who told the commission he was "deeply dissatisfied" with the technical problems, at one point resorted to using a cell phone on the way to Air Force One, according to commission Chairman Thomas H. Kean and Vice Chairman Lee H. Hamilton. Both said Bush's motorcade took a wrong turn on the way to the airport and had to reverse.

Bush and Cheney spoke again at 9:45, while Bush was on the tarmac aboard Air Force One. By that time, both towers of the World Trade Center were aflame and the Pentagon had been hit.

He was told about the second plane at 9:07, several minutes before talking to VP Cheney. The two talked at 9:15, when nobody even knew more planes were missing, so they couldn't have discussed "engagement rules." They didnt talk again until 9:45, after the photo op.

As I observed above, Sen Kerry didn't really say he "couldn't think" for 47 minutes - he just implied he and his fellow senators were too distracted to get work done. It was clearly, in the context in which he said it, an expression. Way to try to derail the conversation, though.

I can see you're not willing to discuss this in a nonpartisan way, but again, I'm not trying to pick on the President - in general I support his actions (at least the ones we knew about) in Sep 01. All you seem to be able to do is try to turn this into an anti-Kerry harangue, but again, that's not really germane to this discussion as far as I can see.

 

[DealMonkey]

Hmmmmm, I wonder what Clinton was doing that morning? Perhaps we should discuss that too?

:roll:

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: charrison


He was told about the second plane at 9:07, several minutes before talking to VP Cheney. The two talked at 9:15, when nobody even knew more planes were missing, so they couldn't have discussed "engagement rules." They didnt talk again until 9:45, after the photo op.


So between 9:07 and 9:45 they spoke at least 3 times. Each time the knowledge of what was happening increased. If does appear the communication could have been better. Had communication been better, I am sure there would have been a second response. His first briefing was that a small plane hit the tower.


As I observed above, Sen Kerry didn't really say he "couldn't think" for 47 minutes - he just implied he and his fellow senators were too distracted to get work done. It was clearly, in the context in which he said it, an expression. Way to try to derail the conversation, though.



Not being able to think while at the office and apparently having more information that the president did at the time is not confidence inspiring, if we are making this the benchmark. And the left seems to want to do this.


I can see you're not willing to discuss this in a nonpartisan way, but again, I'm not trying to pick on the President - in general I support his actions (at least the ones we knew about) in Sep 01. All you seem to be able to do is try to turn this into an anti-Kerry harangue, but again, that's not really germane to this discussion as far as I can see.

I think this entire conversation is stupid. If you want to say the president acted incorrectly during this time, I think Kerry is going to have to be judged by his actions as well.

This is really a non issue for both parties as not much can be done until all the details are known.

 

[myusername]

mental rigidity is such an interesting phenomenon

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Again, you're misrepresenting the facts (probably because you haven't read the article you yourself linked to) by misstating the number of times they spoke, and how the flow of information took place.

You're full of it as far as your commentary on Senator Kerry, and you're taking one comment and overextending it to support a factually incorrent chronology that supports your position.

Again, you don't seem ready to discuss these events in a neutral way, and I tend to agree with you that, as a result, this conversation has taken a turn for the stupid. I just think it's important to learn from history, whereas you only seem to feel that way when the actor involved is a Democrat. By all means cast your vote for the candidate of your choice in November with my blessing.

 

[manly]

Originally posted by: DonVito
Again, you're misrepresenting the facts (probably because you haven't read the article you yourself linked to) by misstating the number of times they spoke, and how the flow of information took place.

You're full of it as far as your commentary on Senator Kerry, and you're taking one comment and overextending it to support a factually incorrent chronology that supports your position.

Again, you don't seem ready to discuss these events in a neutral way, and I tend to agree with you that, as a result, this conversation has taken a turn for the stupid. I just think it's important to learn from history, whereas you only seem to feel that way when the actor involved is a Democrat. By all means cast your vote for the candidate of your choice in November with my blessing.

:beer:

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito
Again, you're misrepresenting the facts (probably because you haven't read the article you yourself linked to) by misstating the number of times they spoke, and how the flow of information took place.


About 9 a.m. that day, at the Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Fla., it was Bush's top political adviser, Karl Rove, who first told him and White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center, though initially it was believed to be a small private plane, the commission reported

Bush remained in the classroom for "five to seven minutes" after learning of the second crash as the children around him continued reading. He had his first conversation with Cheney at about 9:15. Those traveling with the president did not know other aircraft were missing, the commission reported.

Bush and Cheney spoke again at 9:45, while Bush was on the tarmac aboard Air Force One. By that time, both towers of the World Trade Center were aflame and the Pentagon had been hit.

What exactly did I misrepresent?
3 communications in 45 minutes




You're full of it as far as your commentary on Senator Kerry, and you're taking one comment and overextending it to support a factually incorrent chronology that supports your position.


Shame the camera was not on him not being able to think.


Again, you don't seem ready to discuss these events in a neutral way, and I tend to agree with you that, as a result, this conversation has taken a turn for the stupid. I just think it's important to learn from history, whereas you only seem to feel that way when the actor involved is a Democrat. By all means cast your vote for the candidate of your choice in November with my blessing.

Actually I am doing in quite the neutral way. I am holding the argument against both sides.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Where are you getting three from? President Bush and VP Cheney spoke at 9:15 and again at 9:45. I count that as two, and I still have plenty of fingers left, so I don't think I'm miscounting.

I'm thinking you're right this is a silly conversation, in any case - I'm probably just being picayune. I just hope things go differently next time, if there is one. Hopefully that day will never come.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito
Where are you getting three from? President Bush and VP Cheney spoke at 9:15 and again at 9:45. I count that as two, and I still have plenty of fingers left, so I don't think I'm miscounting.


The president had 3 communications while there. 2 were with cheney.



I'm thinking you're right this is a silly conversation, in any case - I'm probably just being picayune. I just hope things go differently next time, if there is one. Hopefully that day will never come.

Yes it does sound like communication was poorly lacking.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Ahh - I see. Above, I had read this remark to mean he spoke to Cheney 3 times (and honestly, it still reads that way to me). Anyway, no big deal.

He was told about the second plane at 9:07, several minutes before talking to VP Cheney. The two talked at 9:15, when nobody even knew more planes were missing, so they couldn't have discussed "engagement rules." They didnt talk again until 9:45, after the photo op.


So between 9:07 and 9:45 they spoke at least 3 times. Each time the knowledge of what was happening increased. If does appear the communication could have been better. Had communication been better, I am sure there would have been a second response. His first briefing was that a small plane hit the tower.

 

[Cobalt]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Now come on... let's not bring Laura into this... she has done nothing to warrant being attacked.

Bush and Kerry are running for the job of President. Their wives should not be attacked.

Thanks...

That's why Teresa Heinz was attacked in the media and on here?

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Now come on... let's not bring Laura into this... she has done nothing to warrant being attacked.

Bush and Kerry are running for the job of President. Their wives should not be attacked.

Thanks...

That's why Teresa Heinz was attacked in the media and on here?

Not by me! And I think it is wrong!
DonVito posted about his mom and asked who would speak against her... the answer should be an resounding NO ONE!

I have seen the First Lady cursed and insulted and spoken of horrifically. To me, a woman should never be spoken to or of in such a manner, unless she acts like a pig. Failing that, it says more about the person doing the cursing, insulting and etc, then it does about the woman. What a poor reflection on a man, to speak of a woman in such harsh, dirty language!


P.S... to anyone that feela the need to make sarcastic comments on the at the end of every post....
I have been doing that for as long as I can remember... sort of like a sig... if a is so offensive....sorry, but I refuse to sink to the level that is accustomed here.

 

[trexpesto]

sovereign? anyone see that? guy has the brains of a fence post. a mean fencepost though.
EDIT: audio link