Bush jr, wow

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Right wing defends war as achieving some vague 'strategic interest', blames failure of war on democrats.

BFT

 

[Summitdrinker]

well I do see bush jr's point on the flaws of a quick complete pullout....but will staying the course really help?

plus this doesn't excuse him and others for taking us there and buring us in such a mess
plus the poor planning and operation once saddam fall
plus the craziest thing of all that we would turn Iraq into a democracy, when he start this BS I knew we were in big trouble

I don't have a answer for Iraq at this point, really nobody does it appears


also I was for the most part against going into Iraq from the beginning, knowing once we took it over it would a nightmare, plus was there valid enough reasons to do it? well we know now, not really

I figured finishing the afghan mess and getting binny should have come first, and been high priority. also even in 2003 I figured Iran would have been the country to take over, not iraq. and now it appears as if I was right on that one
and what about syria? bad apple in the bunch too but didn't make the axis of evil list
and saudi Araba???????? as if there all that great too, well they have oil and pretend to be on our side.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker
also I was for the most part against going into Iraq from the beginning, knowing once we took it over it would a nightmare, plus was there valid enough reasons to do it? well we know now, not really

...also even in 2003 I figured Iran would have been the country to take over, not iraq. and now it appears as if I was right on that one

What are the 'valid reasons' for invading Iran?

After the British were using their power to get cheap oil, our overthrowing their democracy in 1953, putting the Shah in until Carter, then encouraging Saddam to invade them in the 20th century's longest war with a million casualties, wasn't enough - you think there are valid reasons to invade them, too?

Gee, I wonder why we still have war, and why the US has not disproved the maxim that power tends to corrupt.

Sure, it's a bad government, but the US invading them has all kinds of bad things too. Before we go throwing stones, our killing of millions of Vietnamese makes it pretty hypocritical.

 

[Summitdrinker]

reasons to go into Iran...............

WMD or the threat that they will have them soon
causing trouble with/in Iraq and making it more unstable
supporting Al quada
at this point are they anygood to the middle east as a whole?
supporting anti Isreal problem makers


now I know we don't know if all or any of the above is really true but..............

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker
reasons to go into Iran...............

WMD or the threat that they will have them soon

Which can be mitigated or diffused via diplomacy instead of cowboy politics. Not to mention that it's their own national resources and they are a sovereign nation. They have a right to defend themselves and create weapons to do so just like we do.

causing trouble with/in Iraq and making it more unstable

Here's a hint Sunnis and Shiites have never got along since Mohammad died. Crack open a history book.

supporting Al quada

There is no evidence whatsoever of Iran supporting Al Queda. In case you didn't know Al Qaeda is a conservative backwards xenophobic religious group. Iran is a Shiite dominated nation.

at this point are they anygood to the middle east as a whole?

No more no less then Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, etc...

supporting anti Isreal problem makers

LoL - Hello that would include the entire Middle-East and parts of Africa as well.

now I know we don't know if all or any of the above is really true but..............

In other words you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

 

[Summitdrinker]

ok................like Iran isn't a trouble maker

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker
ok................like Iran isn't a trouble maker

No more no less then the our friends the Saudis or the nation of Pakistan.

Remember 9/11 ? What was the nationalities of the majority of terrorits that made up the group who ran planes into the World Trade Center in New York on 9/11?

 

[Summitdrinker]

don't get me wrong I see your points, if you really read my posts you will see that

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker
reasons to go into Iran...............

WMD or the threat that they will have them soon
causing trouble with/in Iraq and making it more unstable
supporting Al quada
at this point are they anygood to the middle east as a whole?
supporting anti Isreal problem makers


now I know we don't know if all or any of the above is really true but..............

You forgot the Nigerian Uranium and the centrifuges that are suitable for uranium enrichment, also the R/C planes made out of balsa and duct tape to deliver these deadly weapons.

Has there ever been ONE successful regime change that did not come from within?

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker
don't get me wrong I see your points, if you really read my posts you will see that

You're points are flawed. Or current problems in Iraq and now the region were caused because we took a working country and broke it beyond repair. This in turned shifted the balance of power in the region while accomplishing nothing of real long lasting worth.

Sure Saddam was a dick but the mess we created is beyond stupid as it had nothing to do with dealing with the causes and issues that brought us 9/11. Starting a war with Iran would be just as stupid as what we have done in Iraq.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Pakistan is going to have to comply but it needs a US government that isn't as chicken shit as this one and one that concentrates on terrorism instead of "THE AXIS OF EVVAAAAAL", fucking please, Pakistan has been playing games and hiding the Taliban since day one and some nutjob thought that "hey, let's not pursue them, let's invade fucking Iraq, that will be great".

I'm telling you this, if the US isn't going to put more boots on the ground in Afghanistan, you can just write it off as a lost cause because every other country will start withdrawing it's troops then, being sitting ducks when the Taliban makes it's return isn't going to happen.

So is this a war against terrorism or a war for the fucked up dreams of GW Bush?

HE FAILED, Iraq won't be the god damned base in the ME that you were hoping for, get the fucking drift and PUT THE BOOTS WHERE THEY ARE GOD DAMNED NEEDED.

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, that is why Iraq was invaded, for the US to have strategic bases in the best strategic area in the region.

 

[Summitdrinker]

yep those bases are big part of it
911 had to happen to get us out of Saudi
911 had to happen so the american people would be foolish enough to fall for invading Iraq

and what about our weak wimpy mindless corrupt congress, most of them went all along with iraq must go down

slickwilly and hillary were part of it

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pakistan is going to have to comply but it needs a US government that isn't as chicken shit as this one and one that concentrates on terrorism instead of "THE AXIS OF EVVAAAAAL", fucking please, Pakistan has been playing games and hiding the Taliban since day one and some nutjob thought that "hey, let's not pursue them, let's invade fucking Iraq, that will be great".

I'm telling you this, if the US isn't going to put more boots on the ground in Afghanistan, you can just write it off as a lost cause because every other country will start withdrawing it's troops then, being sitting ducks when the Taliban makes it's return isn't going to happen.

So is this a war against terrorism or a war for the fucked up dreams of GW Bush?

HE FAILED, Iraq won't be the god damned base in the ME that you were hoping for, get the fucking drift and PUT THE BOOTS WHERE THEY ARE GOD DAMNED NEEDED.

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, that is why Iraq was invaded, for the US to have strategic bases in the best strategic area in the region.

You know, if you would at least try to come across as an intelligent adult instead of a child who just learned how to swear, your points may be taken seriously.

I thought appropriate language was one of the general rules of these forums?

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Summitdrinker


and what about our weak wimpy corrupt congress, most of them went all with iraq must go down

Yeah because then the fat moronic "Freedom Fry" eating crowd who couldn't even find Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Turkey, etc on a map would not vote for them. If they didn't fall in line with the manipulated patriotic fervor that was being built up at the time by those who for this war at the time their political career would be mud. Not to mention that this administration was also manipulating, mis-handling and stifling data based on Iraq to further push their war agenda at the time.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pakistan is going to have to comply but it needs a US government that isn't as chicken shit as this one and one that concentrates on terrorism instead of "THE AXIS OF EVVAAAAAL", fucking please, Pakistan has been playing games and hiding the Taliban since day one and some nutjob thought that "hey, let's not pursue them, let's invade fucking Iraq, that will be great".

I'm telling you this, if the US isn't going to put more boots on the ground in Afghanistan, you can just write it off as a lost cause because every other country will start withdrawing it's troops then, being sitting ducks when the Taliban makes it's return isn't going to happen.

So is this a war against terrorism or a war for the fucked up dreams of GW Bush?

HE FAILED, Iraq won't be the god damned base in the ME that you were hoping for, get the fucking drift and PUT THE BOOTS WHERE THEY ARE GOD DAMNED NEEDED.

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, that is why Iraq was invaded, for the US to have strategic bases in the best strategic area in the region.

You know, if you would at least try to come across as an intelligent adult instead of a child who just learned how to swear, your points may be taken seriously.

I thought appropriate language was one of the general rules of these forums?

I'm sorry, did i offend your delicate senses? If that was the case then dear sir, i do apologize, i must have been out of my mind earlier, but my stay in this dreadful country has been prolonged because the US does not have troops to spare since their excellent work in Iraq is taking up all their time.

So you might see why i may be a tad annoyed, do you not, dear sir?

May i ask your advice on how i shall tell my children that i will not be home for either of their birthdays because of this changes of plans that the very great nation has decided that i must oblige to?

Are you anywhere in the vincinity of where i am, if then you might understand my dilemma but let me guess, you are a big armchair general, filled with big words and surely, you know better than me.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'm sorry, did i offend your delicate senses? If that was the case then dear sir, i do apologize, i must have been out of my mind earlier, but my stay in this dreadful country has been prolonged because the US does not have troops to spare since their excellent work in Iraq is taking up all their time.

So you might see why i may be a tad annoyed, do you not, dear sir?

The rest of us are perfectly capable of expressing our opinions and emotional frustration without sounding like children. It makes for much more effective conversation.

May i ask your advice on how i shall tell my children that i will not be home for either of their birthdays because of this changes of plans that the very great nation has decided that i must oblige to?

Based on your sig and name, I assume you are British... and I take from your comments that you are serving somewhere overseas. I don't see why you blame America for your problems, when your government has full control over you. Blame them for listening to America, sure. Or blame the countries that aren't helping. Whatever makes you happy.

As far as what to tell your kids, I'm sure they're proud enough that their father is helping secure the world to forgive you for not being present for their birthdays. It's a sacrifice we all make.

Are you anywhere in the vincinity of where i am, if then you might understand my dilemma but let me guess, you are a big armchair general, filled with big words and surely, you know better than me.

Guess again.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'm sorry, did i offend your delicate senses? If that was the case then dear sir, i do apologize, i must have been out of my mind earlier, but my stay in this dreadful country has been prolonged because the US does not have troops to spare since their excellent work in Iraq is taking up all their time.

So you might see why i may be a tad annoyed, do you not, dear sir?

The rest of us are perfectly capable of expressing our opinions and emotional frustration without sounding like children. It makes for much more effective conversation.

"the rest of us" .... ok, i'm not going to pretend that you know shit about anything, and if you really dislike the words i'm using then so be it, god forbid you'd ever discuss what my point is, right?

May i ask your advice on how i shall tell my children that i will not be home for either of their birthdays because of this changes of plans that the very great nation has decided that i must oblige to?

Based on your sig and name, I assume you are British... and I take from your comments that you are serving somewhere overseas. I don't see why you blame America for your problems, when your government has full control over you. Blame them for listening to America, sure. Or blame the countries that aren't helping. Whatever makes you happy.

I blame no one but the US, if we had enough manpower here this would have been ended four years ago, but somehow, the terrorist threat of Al Quaida and Bin Ladin and the Taleban was then moved to a second agenda because Iraq was a direct threat, what HAS been shown since then is that to England, the country i serve, Al Qaida is a definite threat.

If the troops would have been concentrating on the real threat instead of invading Iraq, that would NEVER have happened.

As far as what to tell your kids, I'm sure they're proud enough that their father is helping secure the world to forgive you for not being present for their birthdays. It's a sacrifice we all make.

Like i'm going to pretend to them that the US didn't fail us, that is the first thing they'll learn when i return, it'll be sometime later, i have no idea when, when the US can spare some troops from the wild goose chase to the real war on terror maybe?

Are you anywhere in the vincinity of where i am, if then you might understand my dilemma but let me guess, you are a big armchair general, filled with big words and surely, you know better than me.

I'm in Kabul, where are you, and if you were in my vicinity you would not have me guessing.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'm sorry, did i offend your delicate senses? If that was the case then dear sir, i do apologize, i must have been out of my mind earlier, but my stay in this dreadful country has been prolonged because the US does not have troops to spare since their excellent work in Iraq is taking up all their time.

So you might see why i may be a tad annoyed, do you not, dear sir?

The rest of us are perfectly capable of expressing our opinions and emotional frustration without sounding like children. It makes for much more effective conversation.

"the rest of us" .... ok, i'm not going to pretend that you know shit about anything, and if you really dislike the words i'm using then so be it, god forbid you'd ever discuss what my point is, right?

It's hard to even recognize any valid points you may bring up when it's lost in a sea of nonsensical cursing. That's been my point from the get-go.

May i ask your advice on how i shall tell my children that i will not be home for either of their birthdays because of this changes of plans that the very great nation has decided that i must oblige to?

Based on your sig and name, I assume you are British... and I take from your comments that you are serving somewhere overseas. I don't see why you blame America for your problems, when your government has full control over you. Blame them for listening to America, sure. Or blame the countries that aren't helping. Whatever makes you happy.

I blame no one but the US, if we had enough manpower here this would have been ended four years ago, but somehow, the terrorist threat of Al Quaida and Bin Ladin and the Taleban was then moved to a second agenda because Iraq was a direct threat, what HAS been shown since then is that to England, the country i serve, Al Qaida is a definite threat.

If the troops would have been concentrating on the real threat instead of invading Iraq, that would NEVER have happened.

I agree that it definitely should have been handled thoroughly before setting off on offer missions.

Why do you not blame the Pakistani government? They are playing a large role in allowing the Taliban to exist, are they not? You blame the US for not doing enough, yet you don't blame Pakistan for not doing enough when it's occurring in their back yard. Why not?

As far as what to tell your kids, I'm sure they're proud enough that their father is helping secure the world to forgive you for not being present for their birthdays. It's a sacrifice we all make.

Like i'm going to pretend to them that the US didn't fail us, that is the first thing they'll learn when i return, it'll be sometime later, i have no idea when, when the US can spare some troops from the wild goose chase to the real war on terror maybe?

I prefer to keep children out of politics. That's just me.

Are you anywhere in the vincinity of where i am, if then you might understand my dilemma but let me guess, you are a big armchair general, filled with big words and surely, you know better than me.

I'm in Kabul, where are you, and if you were in my vicinity you would not have me guessing.

I'm in Ft. Benning, GA, USA. Getting ready to go off on that "wild goose chase" you refer to again.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'm sorry, did i offend your delicate senses? If that was the case then dear sir, i do apologize, i must have been out of my mind earlier, but my stay in this dreadful country has been prolonged because the US does not have troops to spare since their excellent work in Iraq is taking up all their time.

So you might see why i may be a tad annoyed, do you not, dear sir?

The rest of us are perfectly capable of expressing our opinions and emotional frustration without sounding like children. It makes for much more effective conversation.

"the rest of us" .... ok, i'm not going to pretend that you know shit about anything, and if you really dislike the words i'm using then so be it, god forbid you'd ever discuss what my point is, right?

[qIt's hard to even recognize any valid points you may bring up when it's lost in a sea of nonsensical cursing. That's been my point from the get-go.

Oh man, you will not fare well in the sea of cursing that comes with deployment.

May i ask your advice on how i shall tell my children that i will not be home for either of their birthdays because of this changes of plans that the very great nation has decided that i must oblige to?

Based on your sig and name, I assume you are British... and I take from your comments that you are serving somewhere overseas. I don't see why you blame America for your problems, when your government has full control over you. Blame them for listening to America, sure. Or blame the countries that aren't helping. Whatever makes you happy.

I blame no one but the US, if we had enough manpower here this would have been ended four years ago, but somehow, the terrorist threat of Al Quaida and Bin Ladin and the Taleban was then moved to a second agenda because Iraq was a direct threat, what HAS been shown since then is that to England, the country i serve, Al Qaida is a definite threat.

If the troops would have been concentrating on the real threat instead of invading Iraq, that would NEVER have happened.

I agree that it definitely should have been handled thoroughly before setting off on offer missions.

Why do you not blame the Pakistani government? They are playing a large role in allowing the Taliban to exist, are they not? You blame the US for not doing enough, yet you don't blame Pakistan for not doing enough when it's occurring in their back yard. Why not?

Why would i put blame where blame is not due? You know absolutely nothing about the situation and so you don't get this... The US left us stranded, we CANNOT go into Pakistan, we CANNOT go after the Taleban without the US government approval, so yes, i blame the US for just turning their backs on us and everyone else in Afghanistan and moving on to Iraq.

As far as what to tell your kids, I'm sure they're proud enough that their father is helping secure the world to forgive you for not being present for their birthdays. It's a sacrifice we all make.

Like i'm going to pretend to them that the US didn't fail us, that is the first thing they'll learn when i return, it'll be sometime later, i have no idea when, when the US can spare some troops from the wild goose chase to the real war on terror maybe?

I prefer to keep children out of politics. That's just me.

Yeah, you try that when they are 16 and 17 years old, you want to sound so clever but that's not really working so great for you so just stop doing that.

Are you anywhere in the vincinity of where i am, if then you might understand my dilemma but let me guess, you are a big armchair general, filled with big words and surely, you know better than me.

I'm in Kabul, where are you, and if you were in my vicinity you would not have me guessing.

I'm in Ft. Benning, GA, USA. Getting ready to go off on that "wild goose chase" you refer to again.

[/quote]

Well, i'm going home sometime, i don't know when, i was stationed in Iraq for three months, but the British troops can't hold Afghanistan so we were more needed there, besides, dropping more coins into the empty well that is Iraq isn't going to do much, but good luck and stay safe.

You just bit your tail though, i can easily check if there are troops coming in and out of the area.

State your name and rank.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


Well, i'm going home sometime, i don't know when, i was stationed in Iraq for three months, but the British troops can't hold Afghanistan so we were more needed there, besides, dropping more coins into the empty well that is Iraq isn't going to do much, but good luck and stay safe.

You just bit your tail though, i can easily check if there are troops coming in and out of the area.

State your name and rank.

Yeah, I don't think so. I have nothing to prove to you, as I am not using my position to validate any of my positions. No aspect of anything I have said requires me to be in the military to be valid.

I simply asked you to present your opinions in a manner which wasn't profane or inflammatory. You say being stationed in Kabul gives you the right to be a jackass? I say being in the military, no matter the country, you should present yourself as a professional. I know all to well the amount of cursing that occurs in any military environment, but these forums are not a military environment, and when you speak like that you're sullying the image of the professional soldier.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


Well, i'm going home sometime, i don't know when, i was stationed in Iraq for three months, but the British troops can't hold Afghanistan so we were more needed there, besides, dropping more coins into the empty well that is Iraq isn't going to do much, but good luck and stay safe.

You just bit your tail though, i can easily check if there are troops coming in and out of the area.

State your name and rank.

Yeah, I don't think so. I have nothing to prove to you, as I am not using my position to validate any of my positions. No aspect of anything I have said requires me to be in the military to be valid.

I simply asked you to present your opinions in a manner which wasn't profane or inflammatory. You say being stationed in Kabul gives you the right to be a jackass? I say being in the military, no matter the country, you should present yourself as a professional. I know all to well the amount of cursing that occurs in any military environment, but these forums are not a military environment, and when you speak like that you're sullying the image of the professional soldier.

There are no new troops going to Iraq from Fort Benning, you are lying your arse off.

I'm not going to mince words and neither do the other people here who are for real, if you are not passionate then you are not good at your job.

I simply ask you to QUIT LYING YOU ARSEHOLE!

And please, stay away from me from now on. I don't have patience for people who actually are IN like Palehorse (took a while but i got the message), how in the fuck do you expect me to have patience with liars like you?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

BTW, i'm not a soldier, i'm a Captain, if you outrank me, then tell me what to say, if you don't, read my words and don't talk back, if you gotten as far as Fort Benning then you should know that.

(and by this Palehorse will know me by name, don't slip and mention it in the forums.)

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
BTW, i'm not a soldier, i'm a Captain, if you outrank me, then tell me what to say, if you don't, read my words and don't talk back, if you gotten as far as Fort Benning then you should know that.

(and by this Palehorse will know me by name, don't slip and mention it in the forums.)

You'll probably regret saying this later.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
BTW, i'm not a soldier, i'm a Captain, if you outrank me, then tell me what to say, if you don't, read my words and don't talk back, if you gotten as far as Fort Benning then you should know that.

(and by this Palehorse will know me by name, don't slip and mention it in the forums.)

You'll probably regret saying this later.

Probably.

Does it matter, though?

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield


Well, i'm going home sometime, i don't know when, i was stationed in Iraq for three months, but the British troops can't hold Afghanistan so we were more needed there, besides, dropping more coins into the empty well that is Iraq isn't going to do much, but good luck and stay safe.

You just bit your tail though, i can easily check if there are troops coming in and out of the area.

State your name and rank.

Yeah, I don't think so. I have nothing to prove to you, as I am not using my position to validate any of my positions. No aspect of anything I have said requires me to be in the military to be valid.

I simply asked you to present your opinions in a manner which wasn't profane or inflammatory. You say being stationed in Kabul gives you the right to be a jackass? I say being in the military, no matter the country, you should present yourself as a professional. I know all to well the amount of cursing that occurs in any military environment, but these forums are not a military environment, and when you speak like that you're sullying the image of the professional soldier.

There are no new troops going to Iraq from Fort Benning, you are lying your arse off.

Maybe you should stop to consider the fact that people might be at Fort Benning training, prior to deploying? Kinda makes sense, you know.

I'm not going to mince words and neither do the other people here who are for real, if you are not passionate then you are not good at your job.

I still fail to see how acting professional and civilized on a public message board equates to not being passionate about your job.

I simply ask you to QUIT LYING YOU ARSEHOLE!

And please, stay away from me from now on. I don't have patience for people who actually are IN like Palehorse (took a while but i got the message), how in the fuck do you expect me to have patience with liars like you?

I'm not even that one who brought up military service. Why is it so hard to believe me? Because you don't want to?

BTW, i'm not a soldier, i'm a Captain, if you outrank me, then tell me what to say, if you don't, read my words and don't talk back, if you gotten as far as Fort Benning then you should know that.

If this is indeed the case, I'd be even more surprised at your lack of professionalism.

For that matter, what have you done to prove that you're not indeed lying? I'm not saying you are, but as long as we're playing the game.