Bullet Serialization

[DisgruntledVirus]

This is dumb.

Yet another way to further marginalize the law abiding citizen, and force them to pay more, and go through more "hoops" for something while the ones who are breaking the law get it easier and cheaper.

Sounds a bit like DRM huh?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

Guns already have serial numbers. Bullets can be traced to a specific gun through ballistic forensics. Hence, bullets can be traced to the owner of the gun already.

How would serializing the bullet add anything to this process?

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

Guns already have serial numbers. Bullets can be traced to a specific gun through ballistic forensics. Hence, bullets can be traced to the owner of the gun already.

How would serializing the bullet add anything to this process?

If its not needed, Then why serialize them at all?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

Guns already have serial numbers. Bullets can be traced to a specific gun through ballistic forensics. Hence, bullets can be traced to the owner of the gun already.

How would serializing the bullet add anything to this process?

Both require possession of the Gun. Serialized bullets may be the only Physical evidence, rendering Serial numbers on Weapons or other markings useless to the Police.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
When the rare and as yet unknown farm animal virus knows as Red Neck Killing Spree Virus, the symptoms of which are that rural folk go nuts and start shooting up their neighbors for a hundred miles around, breaks the animal human barrier and starts an epidemic, we will see a new population, presently enamored of the NRA, drift off into active support for banning guns.

Sorry Moonie, but city folks are far more murderous.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/abstract/usrv98.htm

There's the facts. You and your fellow city-folk are far more dangerous to be around than Cletus and his redneck kin.

Jesus, where did I say otherwise? The virus hasn't hit yet.

Your PDF is misleading and disingenuous. See Figure 4 on page 3.

They don't use the "Rate per 1,000 persons" in that statistic while using it in all others - and if you compare (during the study period) what appears to be a 35-40% decline in the total number homicides since the early 90's in urban areas to the relatively flat line in the total number of homicides in rural areas it totally refutes your contention.

I don't want to get in a p'ing contest but we had our first homicide of the year in my 'rural' county.

Two neighbors got likkered-up, started an argument and one of 'em whipped out his gun and shot the other guy ...

Hack much?

You find one thing you take issue, and the whole document is misleading. :roll:

And am I supposed to be impressed by your first murder of the year happening one month into the year? Sounds pretty damn safe to me.

No offense. But your point was ...

Sorry Moonie, but city folks are far more murderous.

250 murders in a metropolis of 500,000 people is the same per capita homicide rate as 10 murders in a rural county of 20,000 people.

Sorry you can't see that ... Your document didn't prove squat.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

uh, no, it'd mean it'd mean the rate would be lower than otherwise. in what you just wrote you've ignored every other factor.

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

No offense. But your point was ...

Sorry Moonie, but city folks are far more murderous.

250 murders in a metropolis of 500,000 people is the same per capita homicide rate as 10 murders in a rural county of 20,000 people.

Sorry you can't see that ... Your document didn't prove squat.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_16.html
the rate is definitely higher in more highly populated areas.

 

[piasabird]

Just load your own rounds. It is not like lead is a controlled item. You can probably purchase the bullet the shell casing the powder separately and load your own. This is not rocket science.

Mail Order balck market bullets over the internet, or just smuggle bullets in from Mexico.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: Train
If its not needed, Then why serialize them at all?

...that's my argument

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

Guns already have serial numbers. Bullets can be traced to a specific gun through ballistic forensics. Hence, bullets can be traced to the owner of the gun already.

How would serializing the bullet add anything to this process?

Both require possession of the Gun. Serialized bullets may be the only Physical evidence, rendering Serial numbers on Weapons or other markings useless to the Police.

So you are going to have a bullet with a serial number on it. How would that help find the criminal?

 

[dmw16]

DOUBLE POST

 

[dmw16]

Terrible idea, period. Anything that erodes our 2nd amendment rights erodes all of them.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: Train
If its not needed, Then why serialize them at all?

...that's my argument

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
There is no "Deterence". That is not the point.

What is the point?

Sandorski wants guns banned. That is Sandorski's point.

Well, yes, I want the ability to have Guns Banned, but this doesn't necessarily lead to that happening. It is to make weapons/Ammo traceable back to a Person. It will aid in the solving of Crimes and/or to those who supply Criminals.

Deterence is just not an effective force. If it was, the Death Penalty would have such a dramatic effect on US Murder rates that it would be the lowest rate amongst the First World. It is, as you know, the highest.

Guns already have serial numbers. Bullets can be traced to a specific gun through ballistic forensics. Hence, bullets can be traced to the owner of the gun already.

How would serializing the bullet add anything to this process?

Both require possession of the Gun. Serialized bullets may be the only Physical evidence, rendering Serial numbers on Weapons or other markings useless to the Police.

So you are going to have a bullet with a serial number on it. How would that help find the criminal?

The same way serial numbers on guns help solve a crime. It gives a paper trail.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: sandorski
The same way serial numbers on guns help solve a crime. It gives a paper trail.

So let's lay out a hypothetical scenario:

As it is now, if a gun crime is committed, and the only evidence is a bullet, then detectives need to trace the ballistics of the bullet to the gun. They can trace it to a specific make and model without any additional information provided. If the gun is registered, or has been used in a crime before, and its ballistics have been registered, then they can trace it to that particular gun right then, and get their suspect. This will give them hard evidence linking the gun to the crime. They then need to proceed to link the gun to the suspect. If this can be done, then they can prosecute the suspect. Case closed.

If we serialize bullets, and play out the same scenario, the detectives start with the same circumstances, only with a bullet marked with a serial number. Where do they go from there? They can still trace the bullet to a particular type of gun, but what additional information does the serial number give them? If you say that they can trace it to the buyer, then there would have to be an *extensive* registration system in place to determine where the bullet came from. Would you have to register the serial numbers on every bullet you bought? What if you lost a bullet at the range and somebody picked it out of the dirt? If a crime was committed using that bullet, would you be liable? Where does the liability rest? With the bullet owner, or the gun owner? Would you have to report after each serialized bullet was fired? What about bullets from other countries? Would it be a world-wide system? Would you ban importation of foreign ammunition? What if counterfeit bullets started being produced?

I could keep going, but I hope you get the point. The cost and complicated nature of setting up and running such an overwhelmingly daunting system far outweighs any theoretical advantage which it may provide, which as I outlined, is not significant compared to the methods which already exist to link bullets to guns and gun owners.

 

[WackyDan]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
Another stupid attempt at gun control. Its simple to cast your own bullets and completely avoid this. People in favor of gun control are all mindless idiots.

Except that if you read the article, they also change the law making it illegal to possess non-serialized ammunition.

SO they pass a bill requiring serialized ammo, and by default turn many americans into criminals.

You will have to dispose of the ammo you have stocked.

Owning your own reloading jig and dies, bought legally would now be illegal to even possess or operate.

Get the picture? From a gun control perspective it is brilliant. From an ownership perspective it is out worse nightmare.

 

[WackyDan]

Originally posted by: Nebor
This is just ridiculous. I can make my own ammunition. Serializing ammo would just drive the costs through the roof and price firearms further out of the reach of those who need them the most (the poor.) Gun control is an elitist policy. Liberals don't care that I own machine guns, because I paid tens of thousands of dollars for them, so I must be an ok guy.

Under this law you will be considered a criminal if yo make your own ammo.

Add to that - you won't be able to buy fresh brass, you won't be able to buy primers, and you won't be able to buy rounds......You won't be able to make shit, so I guess you won't be breaking the law... See my point?

 

[WackyDan]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Shortass

Originally posted by: Wheezer
You know, many people have the materials, knowledge and ability to manufacture their own...which would make this pointless.

Yep, pretty soon many gun owners in the country will be making their own bullets. Nobody will buy bullets from vendors anymore and the black market will grow exponentially.

Right.

"This massive reduction in ammunition would translate into substantially lower sales and profitability and ultimately force major ammunition manufacturers to abandon the market. In turn, there would be a severe shortage of serialized ammunition and all consumers, including federal, state and local law enforcement agencies, would be faced with substantial price increases."

What the hell kind of BS is this garbage, it doesn't make any sense. Dramatically lower sales? Lower supply, so that's fine, instead of an abundance of spare bullets the supply chain will be managed more closely. Big deal. Profitability wouldn't be affected because they'd just raise the price to cover the costs, people would shoot a bit less if it becomes prohibitively expensive, and the people who truly demand ammunition will have to suck it up with higher price. Nobody will be forced out of the market unless they really don't care that much about shooting guns, in which case they shouldn't be complaining.

Let's blow everything out of proportion, sky's falling, death to America!

LMAO....you are so fucking dim.

what is the purpose of this?

it is so that when a round is fired and it kills someone, ideally law enforcement can track the round back to the source find out where it was sold and who bought it...so they can solve a murder.

My point...if something like this were to pass

#1 it is unenforceable.

#2 everybody and their brother including and especially gangs will start casting their own bullets.

it would not to take long to amass a good supply of ammunition for gang warfare.

Gun owners in the US are NOT the military and NOT the police...they do not go out and fire hundreds or thousands of rounds every day. They go out they pop off a few shots at the target range or in the back yard...it would not take long to replenish what was used.

So if they want to put serial numbers on bullets fine....let me know when so I can invest my money into companies that manufacture equipment and provide material for the making of bullets.

I can go through several hundred if not more rounds when target shooting. You obviously are not a gun owner and don't get how much this is gun control more so than crime solving.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

No offense. But your point was ...

Sorry Moonie, but city folks are far more murderous.

250 murders in a metropolis of 500,000 people is the same per capita homicide rate as 10 murders in a rural county of 20,000 people.

Sorry you can't see that ... Your document didn't prove squat.

Almost everything in that report was per capita, or don't you understand what it means when it says "per 1000." You picked a single graph out of the whole thing that listed actual figures and conflated that to the entire report. Most are per capita. Learn to read.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
You know, many people have the materials, knowledge and ability to manufacture their own...which would make this pointless.

+1000

reloading is easy to do and cheap. This idiotic line of regulation would just create another black market for criminals to exploit.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski
The same way serial numbers on guns help solve a crime. It gives a paper trail.

So let's lay out a hypothetical scenario:

As it is now, if a gun crime is committed, and the only evidence is a bullet, then detectives need to trace the ballistics of the bullet to the gun. They can trace it to a specific make and model without any additional information provided. If the gun is registered, or has been used in a crime before, and its ballistics have been registered, then they can trace it to that particular gun right then, and get their suspect. This will give them hard evidence linking the gun to the crime. They then need to proceed to link the gun to the suspect. If this can be done, then they can prosecute the suspect. Case closed.

If we serialize bullets, and play out the same scenario, the detectives start with the same circumstances, only with a bullet marked with a serial number. Where do they go from there? They can still trace the bullet to a particular type of gun, but what additional information does the serial number give them? If you say that they can trace it to the buyer, then there would have to be an *extensive* registration system in place to determine where the bullet came from. Would you have to register the serial numbers on every bullet you bought? What if you lost a bullet at the range and somebody picked it out of the dirt? If a crime was committed using that bullet, would you be liable? Where does the liability rest? With the bullet owner, or the gun owner? Would you have to report after each serialized bullet was fired? What about bullets from other countries? Would it be a world-wide system? Would you ban importation of foreign ammunition? What if counterfeit bullets started being produced?

I could keep going, but I hope you get the point. The cost and complicated nature of setting up and running such an overwhelmingly daunting system far outweighs any theoretical advantage which it may provide, which as I outlined, is not significant compared to the methods which already exist to link bullets to guns and gun owners.

Consumer buys ammo, Serial Number gets put into Consumers file.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

This is nothing more than a way for the government to track who actually knows, or is likely to know, how to use weapons. A demonstrated history of ammunition purchases means you likely won't be disarmed easily. All these regulations are nothing more than government lists provided by the naivety of those who believe laws make crime go away. If you want to address the "gun problem," then address the underlying social causes of gun use. If you don't have a clue what those causes are, do some research on different country's gini coefficients and then look at their violent crime rates. There's a rather interesting correlation there if you take the time to look.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski
The same way serial numbers on guns help solve a crime. It gives a paper trail.

So let's lay out a hypothetical scenario:

As it is now, if a gun crime is committed, and the only evidence is a bullet, then detectives need to trace the ballistics of the bullet to the gun. They can trace it to a specific make and model without any additional information provided. If the gun is registered, or has been used in a crime before, and its ballistics have been registered, then they can trace it to that particular gun right then, and get their suspect. This will give them hard evidence linking the gun to the crime. They then need to proceed to link the gun to the suspect. If this can be done, then they can prosecute the suspect. Case closed.

If we serialize bullets, and play out the same scenario, the detectives start with the same circumstances, only with a bullet marked with a serial number. Where do they go from there? They can still trace the bullet to a particular type of gun, but what additional information does the serial number give them? If you say that they can trace it to the buyer, then there would have to be an *extensive* registration system in place to determine where the bullet came from. Would you have to register the serial numbers on every bullet you bought? What if you lost a bullet at the range and somebody picked it out of the dirt? If a crime was committed using that bullet, would you be liable? Where does the liability rest? With the bullet owner, or the gun owner? Would you have to report after each serialized bullet was fired? What about bullets from other countries? Would it be a world-wide system? Would you ban importation of foreign ammunition? What if counterfeit bullets started being produced?

I could keep going, but I hope you get the point. The cost and complicated nature of setting up and running such an overwhelmingly daunting system far outweighs any theoretical advantage which it may provide, which as I outlined, is not significant compared to the methods which already exist to link bullets to guns and gun owners.

Consumer buys ammo, Serial Number gets put into Consumers file.

"Consumer's file"?!?? :Q Gee, that doesn't sound nefarious at all.

You also failed to address 90% of his questions...

 

[Train]

We should just serialize black people. I mean its more likely a black person commits a gun crime than a non-black, legal gun owner.

If our goal is to lower crime, then this is the best course of action.

Add to that metal detectors and ID check/log to get into any high crime concentration area like Baltimore, Detroit, DC, Oakland.

*****

The above post was sarcastic parody of the stupid posts of some of the stupid posters supporting the stupid idea of serializing bullets.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: sandorski
The same way serial numbers on guns help solve a crime. It gives a paper trail.

So let's lay out a hypothetical scenario:

As it is now, if a gun crime is committed, and the only evidence is a bullet, then detectives need to trace the ballistics of the bullet to the gun. They can trace it to a specific make and model without any additional information provided. If the gun is registered, or has been used in a crime before, and its ballistics have been registered, then they can trace it to that particular gun right then, and get their suspect. This will give them hard evidence linking the gun to the crime. They then need to proceed to link the gun to the suspect. If this can be done, then they can prosecute the suspect. Case closed.

If we serialize bullets, and play out the same scenario, the detectives start with the same circumstances, only with a bullet marked with a serial number. Where do they go from there? They can still trace the bullet to a particular type of gun, but what additional information does the serial number give them? If you say that they can trace it to the buyer, then there would have to be an *extensive* registration system in place to determine where the bullet came from. Would you have to register the serial numbers on every bullet you bought? What if you lost a bullet at the range and somebody picked it out of the dirt? If a crime was committed using that bullet, would you be liable? Where does the liability rest? With the bullet owner, or the gun owner? Would you have to report after each serialized bullet was fired? What about bullets from other countries? Would it be a world-wide system? Would you ban importation of foreign ammunition? What if counterfeit bullets started being produced?

I could keep going, but I hope you get the point. The cost and complicated nature of setting up and running such an overwhelmingly daunting system far outweighs any theoretical advantage which it may provide, which as I outlined, is not significant compared to the methods which already exist to link bullets to guns and gun owners.

Consumer buys ammo, Serial Number gets put into Consumers file.

"Consumer's file"?!?? :Q Gee, that doesn't sound nefarious at all.

You also failed to address 90% of his questions...

Poor choice of words, but basically accurate. You buy Ammo, your name is associated with the Serials on that Ammo.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Train
We should just serialize black people. I mean its more likely a black person commits a gun crime than a non-black, legal gun owner.

If our goal is to lower crime, then this is the best course of action.

Add to that metal detectors and ID check/log to get into any high crime concentration area like Baltimore, Detroit, DC, Oakland.

*****

The above post was sarcastic parody of the stupid posts of some of the stupid posters supporting the stupid idea of serializing bullets.

fail

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Train
We should just serialize black people. I mean its more likely a black person commits a gun crime than a non-black, legal gun owner.

If our goal is to lower crime, then this is the best course of action.

Add to that metal detectors and ID check/log to get into any high crime concentration area like Baltimore, Detroit, DC, Oakland.

*****

The above post was sarcastic parody of the stupid posts of some of the stupid posters supporting the stupid idea of serializing bullets.

fail

I'd say "fixed", but that would be redundant. You pretty well summed up your entire thought process in one word.