Building a new system. Need help.

[Ediot]

The crappy 866mhz sitting on my desk just can't run many of the new games I have. I bought it two years ago for $700 (w/ the ATX tower case. No mouse, keyboard, monitor or speakers included.)

System Specs:

Pentium 3 866mhz
32mb sis 630/730
20gb maxtor hdd
52x cd-rom
floppy disk drive
256mb RAM.

It sucks when I play NWN, BF1942, UT2003 and recently SimCity 4--though Maxis listed p3 500Mhz+ as minimum, the game is barely playable in my system. I've recently downloaded 3dmark2001 SE, and it scored 306 marks on default setting. When I compared it online, my first reaction was--WTF?! My $700 system, turning into crap in two years?! (Maybe it was semi-crap two years ago, I was conned, I dunno..)

I'm building this new system myself, and maybe you guys can help me decide things such as which mobo I should choose for best value, and if the logitech mouse isn't good for gaming, recommend me another one.
Thanks in advance.

Budget: $750-$850
Proposed Gamer's Rig:

Pentium 4 2Ghz
Apacer 1024Mb RAM
Abit sr7-8x mobo
MSI Geforce4 Ti4200
Liteon 16x DVDROM
Liteon 48x16x48
Logitech Dual Optical Mouseman
?? floppy disk drive
?? 56k Internal Modem
?? ATX Tower Case
?? power supply unit (??w)
Seagate Barracuda IV 80Gb 7200rpm AV
Windows Xp (Pro? Home?)

Edit: Ok, I've included my budget now. And OS.

 

[Markfw]

I don't know Intel stuff that well and you didn't mention you budget, but I think you should go with at least a 2.4 or 2.53 CPU. Also, unless you do video editing, 1 gb of ram is a waste. 512 meg is the sweet spot for a gamers rig. For the PSU/case, I love my new Antec 1080awg with a true power 430 watt.

 

[DX2Player]

Dont know budget but pretending you have a bit of flexability I would make these suggestions

Floppy drive doesnt really matter
Modem doesnt really matter
Intel P4 2.53 (if anythign less at least 533MHz FSB)
I would definatly get an ATI 9500 Pro over a Ti4200 (will last a lot longer and much better performance with goodies turned on)
Power supply would get at least a 350W, 430W if budget permits
You only need 512MB ram get either DDR 2700 or RDRAM PC1066 depending on chipset
Mobo chipset is hard to guide without budget but I would go either the 845PE or 850E
You dont have soundcard listed but some suggestions
If you have shitty standard 2.0 speakers onboard should be enough
If you have decent speakers I would get Turtle Beach Santa Cruz soundcard
If you have awsome speakers and high budget I would get Audigy 2
Case is hard due to personal taste and budget also but if you can, try and get aluminum one (better cooling and weight)
Just get Win XP home OEM if you can unless you are dependant uppon lots of tech support than get regular

 

[ErnieD]

The Logitech dual optical mouse will be superb for gaming, you won't have to worry about choosing a different mouse. As for power supply, I'd agree with
DX2Player and say get at least a 350W. That'll give you enough power to add hard drives and other peripherals down the road. Good luck.

 

[LbJustinTime]

Its okay i run a Celeron 433.

 

[thorin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
I don't know Intel stuff that well and you didn't mention you budget, but I think you should go with at least a 2.4 or 2.53 CPU. Also, unless you do video editing, 1 gb of ram is a waste. 512 meg is the sweet spot for a gamers rig. For the PSU/case, I love my new Antec 1080awg with a true power 430 watt.

Ya I completely agree 1gig of RAM although nice and definately braggable isn't really needed for a gaming rig, 512 should be just fine. Also I'll second Antec cases but suggest the SX630 II, or their Lanboy case.

Thorin

 

[mjolnir2k]

Well, the budget you propose and the system spec's you want might not match up too well. Here is a good mid level gaming system that you could build for +/- $750 without O/S and Mice/ keyboard. Add OS and peripherals to this system and you are in it for around $1k. My philosophy is to get at LEAST mid level technology. That way you can get a good 1-2 years out of it b/f you will *need* to upgrade. Leave the entry level "bargain" stuff on the shelf for the next guy. This system gives you a very upgrade worthy MoBo and Memory along with a large HDD that will last for a long time. Also the GF4 Ti4200 will still kick ass on Doom III (as it is the 128MB version) so don't believe the hype that you need to go 9500/ 9700 pro just yet. You can always pick up a DVD player later if needed, but I would just wait for the prices of the version 1 DVD / RW players to come down some more and get one of those when they do.

Spend a bit more ($1k with OS and other), sell your old system (~$250) and voilla, you are within budget ($1k-$250=$750)!

CPU= amdxp2100 $95

HDD= WD WESTERN DIGITAL "SPECIAL EDITION" 80GB 7200RPM $109

CDRW= Lite On 48x24x48 CDRW $57

MoBo= Epox EP-8RDA $88

Memory= CORSAIR MEMORY XMS 256MB PC-3200C2 $98 x 2 =$196

Video= LEADTEK WINFAST A280 GEFORCE4 TI 4200 128MB $155

Case / PSU= Chenming ATX-301KB with 450W PSU $59

OR Go to the "For Sale" forum and put together a whole system for LESS than $750. There are a lot of guys that upgrade their systems every 6 months. Grab their *old* stuff for cheap. I have seen GF4's for $100 and XP2100 for $80. If you deal with a reputable trader you will get good quality parts and be very happy.

Almost my entire system was purchased from the "for sale" forum and I am thrilled with it. Cost me $350 less than retail and no part was older than 6 months.

 

[DX2Player]

Not shure why people keep insisting on Geforce4 Ti4200 cards when the ATI 9500 Pro is much better. Im not a fanboy or anything im using a Geforce card right now but the ATI card is the better choice. But dont just take my word, here are some reviews and you can decide.

Anandtech Review Look at the final version

HotHardware

HardOPC

If you dont want used parts I would buy from Newegg.com they have excellent prices and ship superfast

 

[Ediot]

Standard 2.0 speakers, so onboard sound will do fine for me.
As for 3d card, I'm looking for a cheap one that will give a decent fps in Doom III, hence my initial choice for an MSI. Never heard much about ATI and their Radeon cards though, but I'm reading the review.
BTW, are Athlon xp chips reliable?

Sorry for my newb question.

 

[Markfw]

The Athlon chips are just as reliable as the P4 chips, but at your pricepoint (about $100), they are less exspensive, or perform better, whichever way you look at it.The XP2100 is $79, and there are NO P4's under $100 according to pricewatch. Your original 2000 is $155, and the XP2000 is $71 (quite a difference). Read the reviews on Anandtech or anywhere, and you will see this to be true (dependability)

Edit: Welcome to Anandtech forums!

 

[mjolnir2k]

Athlon chips are as reliable as any made by Intel. Both companies make outstanding products and you can't go wrong with either. I just prefer AMD (Athlon) products as a personal preference. (Plus the AMD will almost always cost less for equivilant performance)

I chose the GF4 Ti200 in this spec as it is less costly than the ATI cards, I like the detonator drivers and it is a tested platform. Not b/c it was a "better" card. A few FPS difference is not a big deal in the real world. The GF4 will (IMO) perform as well as the Radeon 9500 and cost less. Sure the Radeon 9700Pro will blow it away, but be prepared to drop ~$299.

Good luck and have fun building!

 

[DX2Player]

If you look it beats it by more than a few FPS and will definatly see a big difference in "real world" especially if you plan on playing Doom III with it, also it had directx 9 (although not shure if it really matters yet). And honestly if you plan on playing Doom III and cant aford at least a 9500 pro now i would wait later till prices fall. Yes both Intel and AMD are good. If you want the fastest top of the line go Intel, if you want a low end system go AMD, if you want something in between both are good.

Example
Intel P4 2.4 = $191 Here
AMD Athlon XP 2400 = $197 Here

Edit: And in fact the 9500 pro beats the Ti4600 sometimes

 

[tjaisv]

If you get a 9500 Pro you can always software mod it to 9700 Pro

 

[psy44]

Are you willing to sell the old "crappy" computer? Also, you should enable private messages.

 

[Ediot]

I have heard of the softmod for 9500, but I've also heard that the success rate isn't high.

Finished reading the review. The Radeon 9500 Pro shines when it is tested against ti4200 with anti...beloved patriot filtering. Don't see much difference in image quality with that turned on. And won't see much difference in my 15" monitor.

As for the old "crappy" computer, I'm willing to sell it. I've check your system specs. Umm, just like my father's computer, but you have an extra 64mb of ram and 2 gb of space. Not really a P.O.S., since my father was using a B&W laptop with Windows 3.11 last year. *It's true* Sadly, it broke down and he never bothered to fix it, nor could he find anyone who knows how to.

 

[mjolnir2k]

Originally posted by: DX2Player
If you look it beats it by more than a few FPS and will definatly see a big difference in "real world" especially if you plan on playing Doom III with it, also it had directx 9 (although not shure if it really matters yet). And honestly if you plan on playing Doom III and cant aford at least a 9500 pro now i would wait later till prices fall. Yes both Intel and AMD are good. If you want the fastest top of the line go Intel, if you want a low end system go AMD, if you want something in between both are good.

Example
Intel P4 2.4 = $191 Here
AMD Athlon XP 2400 = $197 Here

Edit: And in fact the 9500 pro beats the Ti4600 sometimes

Disagree with most of your points and am confused by "If you want the fastest top of the line go Intel, if you want a low end system go AMD" I, and MANY would differ.

As far as DX 9. It's not even out yet and DX 8 isn't even used by most SW. Doom III is still vaporware so it's pointless to use that as the end all of gaming. Still not sure why the GF4 isn't a better low cost alternative than the Radeon models you tout?

I guess you REALLY like the ATI and that's fine, but try and be open minded to a BUDGET system. Oh, and a GF4 Ti4600 would be a much better card than a 9500 non-pro or pro for that matter as you can't count on the soft mod working. But a GF4 Ti4600 would not qualify as "budget" so I didn't list it.

 

[DX2Player]

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ (OEM) = $93
ASUS A7V8X = $109.99
2x256 Samsung Original DDR333 PC-2700 (OEM) = $110
Seagate Barracuda IV 80GB 7200RPM (OEM) = $98
Lite-On 16X DVD = $39.99
Lite-On 48x24x48 CDRW = $53.99
PANASONIC 1.44 MB Floppy = $9
ENERMAX EG365P-VE(FM). 350W Power = $47
SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9500 PRO 128MB (OEM) = $180
Logitech MX500 Optical Mouse = $46
Creative Modem Blaster V.92 PCI = $19
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack 1 - OEM Full Version = $93

Total = $898.97
Bit over budget but this will make a good performance machine

 

[DX2Player]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k

Originally posted by: DX2Player
If you look it beats it by more than a few FPS and will definatly see a big difference in "real world" especially if you plan on playing Doom III with it, also it had directx 9 (although not shure if it really matters yet). And honestly if you plan on playing Doom III and cant aford at least a 9500 pro now i would wait later till prices fall. Yes both Intel and AMD are good. If you want the fastest top of the line go Intel, if you want a low end system go AMD, if you want something in between both are good.

Example
Intel P4 2.4 = $191 Here
AMD Athlon XP 2400 = $197 Here

Edit: And in fact the 9500 pro beats the Ti4600 sometimes

Disagree with most of your points and am confused by "If you want the fastest top of the line go Intel, if you want a low end system go AMD" I, and MANY would differ.

As far as DX 9. It's not even out yet and DX 8 isn't even used by most SW. Doom III is still vaporware so it's pointless to use that as the end all of gaming. Still not sure why the GF4 isn't a better low cost alternative than the Radeon models you tout?

I guess you REALLY like the ATI and that's fine, but try and be open minded to a BUDGET system. Oh, and a GF4 Ti4600 would be a much better card than a 9500 non-pro or pro for that matter as you can't count on the soft mod working. But a GF4 Ti4600 would not qualify as "budget" so I didn't list it.

Ok for sake of argument most objective people will agree with me concerning Intel vs AMD. Please explain why you think im wrong

As for DX 9 I think i already noted that its not necisary. And if you actually read the links I posted you could see that the 9500 pro is the best choice. Here let me quote

"ATI is very concerned about making sure the Radeon 9500 Pro is a success, as it targets a much larger volume price point. Thanks to an improved driver, new board design with an optimized layout and a full 128MB of memory the card is able to compete with the GeForce4 Ti 4600 instead of being just barely faster than the Ti 4200." -Andantech

"With like AA and Aniso Filtering settings, the Radeon 9500 Pro is 44 - 57% faster than even the GeForce 4 Ti 4600, in these two tests. We're not sure how else we could slice or dice this for you. It's fairly easy to digest in any scenario. The Radeon 9500 Pro wins hands down by a huge margin, in this fantastic new First Person Shooter from Epic." -Hot Hardware

"No AA or Aniso to cloud your judgment here, just a pre-set High Quality setting that we enabled with a custom ini file we use in the lab. This allows us to force identical quality settings on all graphics cards, regardless of GPU or VPU. The Radeon 9500 Pro is 15 - 25% faster than the Ti 4200 and 3 - 5% faster than the GF4 Ti 4600, in this game engine, plain and simple." -Hot Hardware

"So what do we have here? Basically ATI is targeting the 9500 Pro to compete with the GeForce4 Ti 4200 GPU. However, in our tests the 9500 Pro is able to outperform the Ti 4200 in everything: no anti-aliasing, anti-aliasing, and anti-aliasing with anisotropic. In fact, it's close to the Ti 4600 with no anti-aliasing and no anisotropic. Once you enable AA or AF, however, the 9500 Pro just takes off and outperforms the Ti 4600!" -HardOPC

But your right, I have no idea what im talking about


EDIT: Oh yea and incase you missed it im not an ATI fan, I am using a Geforce2 Ultra and love it, in fact iv never owned an ATI graphics card

 

[Sword]

Before spending too much money in a new system, you could consider to change you vid card ? I dont know if your MB can handle AGP 4X, but if yes I would really think about an upgrade.

For the Vid card debate. One thing to consider is the DRIVER part of a video card. I bought an ATI FireGL 8800 vid card for my job (CAD). I regret it...

The drivers (the latest from ATI web site) are really bad. The computer freeze often (1 or 2 times a week) because the vid card is too hot. The CPU (P4 2.53 Mhz) is at 32 C !. And applications requiring graphical support, especially OpenGL instructions, are crashing at least 3 times a week. I tried Nvidia card and 3DLabs card and they work much better (I stress test my computer with benchmark without any single crash or any other problem).

Not only the drivers are not fully functional, but also ATI DOESNT want you to upgrade if everything runs fine. WHY ? Because there wont have any performance gain with future development ! Nvidia is really the king there.

BUT, I must agree that ATI is really the king in performance and for at least another cycle (GeForce FX is not really impressive !).

For the Motherboard choice, please consider to buy one with the Sis648 or Sis655. This chipset is the best for your bucks right now. And it support DDR333 or DDR400 !

Good luck !

 

[Markfw]

Sword, it your vid card is too hot, then your case ventilation may not be good. What are your case temps ? You can't blame the drivers if your card gets too hot. The CPU temp is only a small part of the equation.

 

[Ediot]

Oh yes, you have reminded me of a very important issue.
Will the combo of an AMD Athlon chip (My friend owns one, and he keeps complaining about the heat) and ATI Radeon generate so much heat that my case will melt unless I install one of those extreme cooling solution used by overclockers?

And, Sword, I have considered that option. You won't believe it, but my mobo doesn't offer any expansion slot for an AGP card. The brand: Jetway. Model:630CF/630CN. Never heard of it, eh? Guess it's one of those obscure local (Malaysia) mobo manufacturer. If anyone here happens to own this mobo, please correct me if I'm wrong. I got my information from the manual, which is written in English even worse than mine.

*Lousy Joke*
ATI FireGL 8800
*That's why they named it FireGL. It's HOT!*

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: Ediot
Oh yes, you have reminded me of a very important issue.
Will the combo of an AMD Athlon chip (My friend owns one, and he keeps complaining about the heat) and ATI Radeon generate so much heat that my case will melt unless I install one of those extreme cooling solution used by overclockers?

And, Sword, I have considered that option. You won't believe it, but my mobo doesn't offer any expansion slot for an AGP card. The brand: Jetway. Model:630CF/630CN. Never heard of it, eh? Guess it's one of those obscure local (Malaysia) mobo manufacturer. If anyone here happens to own this mobo, please correct me if I'm wrong. I got my information from the manual, which is written in English even worse than mine.

*Lousy Joke*
ATI FireGL 8800
*That's why they named it FireGL. It's HOT!*

The AthlonXP's can generate up to ~60W and I believe the video card can put out about 25W or so. At least one 80mm exhaust fan, keeping your cables tied back, and making sure there are adequate vents to allow the air to enter the case would be a good start. Leaving the PCI slot vacant below the video card, or installing an exhaust blower below it (example) would help keep the card cooler.

 

[jeffrey]

Ediot.... You stated that you want a videocard that will get decent framerates in Doom III.

Here is my suggestion:
Do NOT get 1024mb of ram. Only get 512mb. Use the money saved and get a 128mb videocard that is faster than a GeForce4 TI4200. With the money saved you could easily upgrade that to a GeForce4 TI4800 or even stretch a little bit and get the Radeon 9700PRO. Either of the mentioned choices would benefit you much much more for your gaming needs than more system ram and a slower videocard would.

 

[DX2Player]

New ATI drivers are a lot better, if they were not they would have mentioned in one of the many reviews out there. Dont know anything about your server card overheating but if the new 9500/9700 cards had an issue you would hear it all over the forums.

If you dont plan on overclocking I think you will be fine, never overclocked a AMD so cant really help you on what to do.

 

[Ediot]

I have to admit, getting the Radeon 9700 pro is a very tempting offer, considering the FX series getting bad reviews from the websites I visited. This is a list of things I've decided to buy:

512Mb RAM (Best value recommendation?)
Liteon 16x
Liteon 48x24x48
Power Supply- At least 350W
Windows XP Home Edition
ATX casing (A CHEAP, plain white one w/lots of slots will do fine.)
56k Internal Modem (Not much difference between the brands other than the price.)
Floppy Disk Drive (Same as above)
Seagate Barracuda IV 80gb 7200rpm

A list of things I still can't decide on:
Graphic Card (Cheap MSI ti4200 or Top-of-the-line Radeon 9700. If Radeon, pro/non pro and which brand?)
AMD Athlon or Pentium 4 (Since both are equal, might be going for AMD--cheap, but I've used Intel for two computers and trust it more)
Logitech Mouse (Dual Optical or MX500?)
Mobo (Best value recommendation for both AMD and Intel?)

Budget's still the same. I'll be declaring bankruptcy shortly after purchasing this system.

One more thing, can someone give me an estimation of the current price for my old system.
Thanks!!!

Edit: No plan on overclocking the processor. Too risky. Maybe I might overclock my graphic card.