Broadwell GT3 48EUs? TDP range 4.5W-47W

[Homeles]

No...even unlimited bandwith would not yield unlimited performance.

You're not getting it, which is clearly demonstrated by that straw man. The only wall that IGPs have right now that dGPUs do not is memory bandwidth. Once that wall is removed with the bandwidth provided by stacked memory, IGPs will make low end GPUs irrelevant.

After stacked memory drops in, the only things holding back GPUs are manufacturing process and architecture. Since Intel has a lead here on the former, you'll likely see them catch up to all but the highest end dGPUs as they improve on the latter.

 

[Lonbjerg]

You're not getting it, which is clearly demonstrated by that straw man. The only wall that IGPs have right now that dGPUs do not is memory bandwidth. Once that wall is removed with the bandwidth provided by stacked memory, IGPs will make low end GPUs irrelevant.

After stacked memory drops in, the only things holding back GPUs are manufacturing process and architecture. Since Intel has a lead here on the former, you'll likely see them catch up to all but the highest end dGPUs as they improve on the latter.

False.
Diesize.
Want to add performance to the crap IGP then you to sacrfice CPU die real estate and/or TDP.
Bottom line: You need to sacrifce performance.
And in the end a CPU +GPU will perform better.

It's sad to the the console mentality of "almost good enough" spill over in the PC realm.

There is a reason I use dedicated hardware (NIC, soundcard, GPU ect.)
Onboard always been lagging compared to dedicated hardware...and always will.

 

[Homeles]

False.
Diesize.

Huh, it's almost as if I addressed that in what I wrote.

Maybe try reading next time?

 

[Lonbjerg]

Huh, it's almost as if I addressed that in what I wrote.

Maybe try reading next time?

That is what I am talking about..you arepromoting asingle die, with cut back CPU performance and IGP graphics performance.
That is for the console-crow, that has lower standards for image quality, fidelity and framerate.

I'm a PC gamer.
I have higher standards
But lets make a test...shall we?
You tell me when a CPU+IGP beats my rig...then I will tell you when I will upgrade.

According to the IPG crowd...it should be when?
Tomorrow?
Next month?
Next year?
When?

 

[Homeles]

That is what I am talking about..you arepromoting asingle die, with cut back CPU performance and IGP graphics performance.
That is for the console-crow, that has lower standards for image quality, fidelity and framerate.

I get it. You're unable to understand what we are saying, despite having laid it out for you so clearly.

Perhaps you should give up already.

I'm a PC gamer.
I have higher standards

Ah yes, the a member of the elitist PC gaming race. You guys are a dime a dozen.

According to the IPG crowd...it should be when?
Tomorrow?
Next month?
Next year?
When?

You have absolutely no concept of time.

You can have fun with buying discrete GPUs. After all, they're only going to become even more of a niche product as time goes on. As APUs gobble up the market share, you'll have to pay out the nose to get higher performance than the APU crowd.

You keep whining about die size, but it's already been pointed out to you that Intel has a two year process lead, a gap that is only growing over time. If you refuse to see how Intel's growing interest in IGPs threatens the discrete GPU market, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I get it. You're unable to understand what we are saying, despite having laid it out for you so clearly.

Perhaps you should give up already.

Ah yes, the a member of the elitist PC gaming race. You guys are a dime a dozen.

You have absolutely no concept of time.

You can have fun with buying discrete GPUs. After all, they're only going to become even more of a niche product as time goes on. As APUs gobble up the market share, you'll have to pay out the nose to get higher performance than the APU crowd.

You keep whining about die size, but it's already been pointed out to you that Intel has a two year process lead, which is only growing over time. If you refuse to see how Intel's growing interest in IGPs threatens the discrete GPU market, I don't know what to tell you.

So a CPU+IGP will outperfom my PC when?

 

[Homeles]

So a CPU+IGP will outperfom my PC when?

Long before you actually read what anyone's saying here. Stop being so arrogant -- you're the only one arguing your side. We've got a point; stop dismissing it.

 

[Sweepr]

So a CPU+IGP will outperfom my PC when?

IGPs could become a very viable alternative to lots of PC gamers very soon. Rest assured that most consumers couldn't care less about 130W CPUs and 200W+ GPUs as long as their games run fine.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Long before you actually read what anyone's saying here. Stop being so arrogant -- you're the only one arguing your side. We've got a point; stop dismissing it.

Why won't you answer my question?
Why should I settle for less?
Why should the lower standards of consoles infect PC's?

If you like IGP...buy a console..stop acting like IGP's will kill GPU's tomorrow.

When my rig needs to be replaced, I will bet that I can get a CPU + GPU combo no IGP can touch...I use PC's due to the performance, not the lack of performance.

In 5 years IGP's will still be chasing GPU's in performance...want to take a bet on it?
And since gaming requirements are not static...IGP's will still lack behind GPU's in the future too.

But like I said...give a call when a CPU+IGP beats my current rig...unless you are promoting a lot of us people downgrade our performance just to go IGP?

 

[Homeles]

Why won't you answer my question?
Why should I settle for less?
Why should the lower standards of consoles infect PC's?

The very fact that you're asking these questions just goes to show how much everything is going over your head.

There's no point in me answering them -- they're absolutely moronic questions. If you had a damn clue what people were saying here, you wouldn't be asking them.

In 5 years IGP's will still be chasing GPU's in performance...want to take a bet on it?

Are we talking high end GPUs? Mid range? You act as if high end GPUs are the only ones to exist.

Keep on failing to miss the point...

 

[Lonbjerg]

And you act like IGP's are good enoguh for everyone *shrugs*

The only thing IGP's are a threat too are to little crappy GPU's that makes no sense anyway, like a AMD HD 6350.

And are you telling me to go down a path, where I need to upgrade my CPU everytime my IGP get to old?

My current rig ahs gone the follwoing road:

i7 920 + GTX285 -> GTX480 - > GTX580...that were 3 GPU's on the SAME CPU.
When my CPU got to slow, I put in a i7 990x and exhanged the GTX580 for a Titan

I think this righ will get 1 or 2 GPU upgrades more.

Not bad for a 2008 mobo.

That is the PC way.

I hate to think how many mobo's I woul have to have gotten...if I went down the raod you would like me to take..

I look at the WHOLE system....not the the CPU...

 

[Qwertilot]

Total power draw will be a constraint but not a huge one - you can get a Haswell quad with a 45TDP. Is that going to bottleneck anything gaming wise? Probably not. Absolutely zero cpu pressure from the consoles of course.

Not all CPU related I guess, so say about 30w for 'enough' CPU from Broadwell/ Skylake, dropping further down over time.

If Intel chose to, that gives them 60-80w to expend on the igpu. With the process advantage that looks rather close to 7850 territory power wise. Just a matter of whether they can sort the architecture/drivers etc out and are willing to do this.

That could give them rough console equivalence.

If 4k monitors weren't coming in there's a very good chance my next computer would use a igpu. As it is I suppose I'll probably still need a dgpu to drive one of those.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Total power draw will be a constraint but not a huge one - you can get a Haswell quad with a 45TDP. Is that going to bottleneck anything gaming wise? Probably not. Absolutely zero cpu pressure from the consoles of course.

Not all CPU related I guess, so say about 30w for 'enough' CPU from Broadwell/ Skylake, dropping further down over time.

If Intel chose to, that gives them 60-80w to expend on the igpu. With the process advantage that looks rather close to 7850 territory power wise. Just a matter of whether they can sort the architecture/drivers etc out and are willing to do this.

That could give them rough console equivalence.

If 4k monitors weren't coming in there's a very good chance my next computer would use a igpu. As it is I suppose I'll probably still need a dgpu to drive one of those.

And after 4K...DX12 will come...and we will be right back at status quo

 

[Homeles]

And you act like IGP's are good enoguh for everyone *shrugs*

That's not what I'm arguing at all. As I've said, what, three times now? Four?

The only thing IGP's are a threat too are to little crappy GPU's that makes no sense anyway, like a AMD HD 6350.

Yes, right now. Since you haven't noticed ANYTHING that is being said here and I'm having to spell it out for you, this argument is not about the present.

And are you telling me to go down a path, where I need to upgrade my CPU everytime my IGP get to old?

I'm not telling you to do anything, except to read what people are saying to you.

My current rig ahs gone the follwoing road:

i7 920 + GTX285 -> GTX480 - > GTX580...that were 3 GPU's on the SAME CPU.
When my CPU got to slow, I put in a i7 990x and exhanged the GTX580 for a Titan

I think this righ will get 1 or 2 GPU upgrades more.

Not bad for a 2008 mobo.

That is the PC way.

I hate to think how many mobo's I woul have to have gotten...if I went down the raod you would like me to take..

I look at the WHOLE system....not the the CPU...

Why are your past purchasing decisions relevant to future products?

 

[NTMBK]

Amusingly Lonbjerg, the next graphics card you buy probably will be an APU. NVidia are integrating ARM CPU cores into their largest Maxwell GPU.

 

[Lonbjerg]

That's not what I'm arguing at all. As I've said, what, three times now? Four?

Yes, right now. Since you haven't noticed ANYTHING that is being said here and I'm having to spell it out for you, this argument is not about the present.

I'm not telling you to do anything, except to read what people are saying to you.

Why are your past purchasing decisions relevant to future products?

I'd rather exchange a GPU...than a CPU + MOBO...when the IGP fails to deliver.

 

[AtenRa]

Will Broadwell GT3 be on mainstream products or mainstream is up to GT2 ??

 

[Homeles]

I'd rather exchange a GPU...than a CPU + MOBO...when the IGP fails..

Is that the only argument you have left?

Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of integration is reduced component failure.

Will Broadwell GT3 be on mainstream products or mainstream is up to GT2 ??

Mainstream as in?

 

[AtenRa]

APUs from both AMD and Intel will never catch dGPU performance. Even with a complete process advantage Intel will not be able to have more than mainstream dGPU performance out of iGPUs.

 

[AtenRa]

Mainstream as in?

Desktop/mobile up to $150-200

 

[Lonbjerg]

Is that the only argument you have left?

Interestingly enough, one of the benefits of integration is reduced component failure.

Mainstream as in?

No.
The upgrade thing is just one thing...the lack of performance compared to a GPU is the main consern and the thing that makes IGP's useless to me.

But you think do really want to say that CPU + MOBO....upgrade to new CPU/MBO...and then upgrade to new CPU/Mobo is better than one CPU/MBO that gets 3 GPU updates?


So we have lack of performance, a less than optimal upgradepath...again I have to wonder why you don't buy a console instead?

 

[Homeles]

APUs from both AMD and Intel will never catch dGPU performance. Even with a complete process advantage Intel will not be able to have more than mainstream dGPU performance out of iGPUs.

Great, I agree with you. That doesn't have anything to do with what's being argued here.

The point is that the gap is decreasing rapidly. Low end GPUs are already being cannibalized. Low-midrange (77xx level) is next, beginning with next year's Broadwell and Kaveri. Eventually 78xx-class GPUs will be quite threatened.

The relevance of discrete GPUs will only decrease over time. As their volume decreases in favor of APUs, discrete GPU cost will rise, or at least relative to APUs.

Desktop/mobile up to $150-200

Probably GT2.

No.
The upgrade thing is just one thing...the lack of performance compared to a GPU is the main consern and the thing that makes IGP's useless to me.

If you are only capable of looking at the present, then yes, IGPs will appear that way.

But you think do really want to say that CPU + MOBO....upgrade to new CPU/MBO...and then upgrade to new CPU/Mobo is better than one CPU/MBO that gets 3 GPU updates?

I don't know why you keep bringing up replacing motherboards. Socket longevity is a completely separate issue. Even if a new socket was required, this is only a short term problem -- there are a finite number of components that can be (meaningfully) integrated, and most of the heavy hitters are already integrated. After the PCH is integrated (Broadwell & Skylake), new sockets won't be required anymore, or at least far less often.

So we have lack of performance, a less than optimal upgradepath...again I have to wonder why you don't buy a console instead?

Why don't you buy some humility? Also, who ever said I even game? This has absolutely nothing to do with with who does what -- it's about APUs threatening dGPUs. You're absolutely terrible at writing relevant arguments and writing relevant questions.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Great, I agree with you. That doesn't have anything to do with what's being argued here.

The point is that the gap is decreasing rapidly. Low end GPUs are already being cannibalized. Low-midrange (77xx level) is next, beginning with next year's Broadwell and Kaveri. Eventually 78xx-class GPUs will be quite threatened.

The relevance of discrete GPUs will only decrease over time. As their volume decreases in favor of APUs, discrete GPU cost will rise.

Like I said...righ now IGP' are picking up the low hagning fruit...and looking at where IGP's come from...that is no very hard to improve on the subparperformance of IGP's.

They are runnning fast towards the "wall"...the impact will hurt.

 

[AtenRa]

Great, I agree with you. That doesn't have anything to do with what's being argued here.

The point is that the gap is decreasing rapidly. Low end GPUs are already being cannibalized. Low-midrange (77xx level) is next, beginning with next year's Broadwell and Kaveri. Eventually 78xx-class GPUs will be quite threatened.

The relevance of discrete GPUs will only decrease over time. As their volume decreases in favor of APUs, discrete GPU cost will rise, or at least relative to APUs.

Nope, the reason iGPUs are scaling faster than dGPU today is because the performance was at the very bottom. There will be a time soon, when iGPU performance scalling will start to slow down and will catch that of dGPUs. Even next year, Kaveri will not have the same performance as 7750 (GDDR5). And dont forget that HD7750 will be already in the market for 2+ years.

 

[mrmt]

AMD is not that small. The split is 80/20 between AMD and Intel, see:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-intel-cpu-processor,15041.html

Yes, they are that small:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2062...-amd-gain-x86-market-share-against-intel.html

AMD share once you purge the console numbers are around 16-17%, meaning that the actual numbers are more like 64/36, not 60/40.

So the 60/40 split between laptops/desktop CPUs is quite accurate. And that's definitely close by any normal standard. Only 10% from each side of a 50/50 split. If they would have been any closer, like a 53/47 split, I'd call it more or less equal instead.

Even if your numbers were correct, and I already showed that they aren't, they would mean that notebooks volumes are 50% bigger than desktop. I don't know where do you work or what do you do for living, but in every industry I worked 60/40 is anything but close. Maybe you could explain to everybody what are these normal standards you are talking about.