Broadwell GT3 48EUs? TDP range 4.5W-47W

[blackened23]

To be fair you won't see GT3 or GT4 on a Intel model anywhere near the prices that AMD APUs sell for.

The real problem is that the only good AMD APUs are desktop LGA chips. As far as I see it, that's a battle that AMD can do fine in since desktop isn't a real focus for anyone, being that desktop sales are slumping so much every quarter. So a lot of the LGA APUs are being used as HTPC's which is an area they do fine in. But for performance PCs, all of those buyers will generally get a dGPU.

Conversely, the market that actually matters, AMD won't do well in. Their mobile APUs are the real casualty in the battle against intel, because AMD's mobile chips are generally castrated in order to hit desirable power consumption levels. Whereas, intel's chips are still hitting high frequencies with turbo - they aren't desktop performance level, nonetheless HD5200 GT3e shows the potential as a mobile SKU. Intel just has far better and more balanced iGPU products for the market that matters (mobile) IMO.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Doesn't it depend on the use case how much is considered sufficient? I mean discrete GFX cards have way more than that (2+ GB GDDR5 RAM) for a reason I assume?

Easier if you just read the article. The answer is there.

 

[Shivansps]

Still i it does not make much sence to release GT4 on DDR3...

 

[Ajay]

So the GT4 looks to be 96EUs with its 2Tflop+ performance.

And more chips will contain eDRAM. Hard times ahead for dGPU makers.

Hard times for dGPU maker's mobile SKUs for sure. But, it certainly seems possible that dGPU could be toast by the end of the decade. HBM will greatly accelerate their fall. Once HBM moves from 'on package' to 'on chip' it will be game over, IMHO. I just don't see how NV gets around this (hence such experiments as 'Shield').

If, by some miracle, AMD can recapitalize and compete on x86 - at least they can use some future gfx architecture with HBM to help them stay in the game. In fact. AMD needs 'on package' HBM much more than Intel, as it probably their only way to stay in the x86 biz.*

dGPU needs multi-monitor, high frame rate 3D (or some other 'breakthrough in visual experience') to take hold for the enthusiast gamer market to support them. Right now they are at the mercy of monitor makers and mediocrity of console ports.


* Sometimes I wonder if Intel will ever get serious about gaming, but at least they finally have a good quality GFX driver - from the same article you cited above.

 

[Fjodor2001]

The question is how Intel intends to price this.

Will an APU with GT4 be cheaper than a CPU + discrete CPU at the same performance level?

 

[mikk]

Conversely, the market that actually matters, AMD won't do well in. Their mobile APUs are the real casualty in the battle against intel, because AMD's mobile chips are generally castrated in order to hit desirable power consumption levels. Whereas, intel's chips are still hitting high frequencies with turbo - they aren't desktop performance level, nonetheless HD5200 GT3e shows the potential as a mobile SKU. Intel just has far better and more balanced iGPU products for the market that matters (mobile) IMO.

Yes this is AMDs problem. Where it matters AMD isn't better. However I think Broadwell-K with GT3e could beat AMD in desktop. Even when the price segment differs, it is good prestige for Intel.

 

[Fjodor2001]

The real problem is that the only good AMD APUs are desktop LGA chips. As far as I see it, that's a battle that AMD can do fine in since desktop isn't a real focus for anyone, being that desktop sales are slumping so much every quarter. So a lot of the LGA APUs are being used as HTPC's which is an area they do fine in. But for performance PCs, all of those buyers will generally get a dGPU.

The Desktop PC market is declining but is far from dead. Sales volume is close to laptop sales.

Regarding the HTPC market you mentioned, that must be a really small portion of CPU sales. Is it even 1% of the total CPU sales? Sometimes when reading forums such as on Anandtech you get the impression it's a big deal. But one forgets these forums are populated by enthusiasts that are not representative of the public in general.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Hard times for dGPU maker's mobile SKUs for sure. But, it certainly seems possible that dGPU could be toast by the end of the decade. HBM will greatly accelerate their fall. Once HBM moves from 'on package' to 'on chip' it will be game over, IMHO. I just don't see how NV gets around this (hence such experiments as 'Shield').

If, by some miracle, AMD can recapitalize and compete on x86 - at least they can use some future gfx architecture with HBM to help them stay in the game. In fact. AMD needs 'on package' HBM much more than Intel, as it probably their only way to stay in the x86 biz.*

dGPU needs multi-monitor, high frame rate 3D (or some other 'breakthrough in visual experience') to take hold for the enthusiast gamer market to support them. Right now they are at the mercy of monitor makers and mediocrity of console ports.


* Sometimes I wonder if Intel will ever get serious about gaming, but at least they finally have a good quality GFX driver - from the same article you cited above.

You do know what happens with NVIDIA's Volta right?

 

[mrmt]

The Desktop PC market is declining but is far from dead. Sales volume is close to laptop sales.

Intel sales are divided 65/35 favoring notebooks. Last AMD public number was around 50/50.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You do know what happens with NVIDIA's Volta right?

Stacked memory on discrete GPUs is an evolutionary state. However on the IGP its revolutionary due to their main memory bandwidth.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Stacked memory on discrete GPUs is an evolutionary state. However on the IGP its revolutionary due to their main memory bandwidth.

Until we run into the diesize.

I know I would rahter have a dedicated CPU die and GPU die...than 2 "universal dies"

I don't want my CPU trying to be a midget GPU...I want it to be a CPU...if I need a GPU...I will buy one.

IGP's are overhyped if you look at their performance...

 

[Shivansps]

Yes this is AMDs problem. Where it matters AMD isn't better. However I think Broadwell-K with GT3e could beat AMD in desktop. Even when the price segment differs, it is good prestige for Intel.

Wild guess here, Broadwell-K performing like the XONE IGP?

 

[Homeles]

the real problem is that the only good amd apus are desktop lga chips.

PGA*

You do know what happens with NVIDIA's Volta right?

You know what happens from AMD before Nvidia's Volta, right?

AMD's been toying with HBM for quite some time now. It's very likely that they'll beat Nvidia to the punch.

They might even beat out Intel. But who knows. Doesn't really matter, since all three will have stacked memory in the next year or so.

 

[Lonbjerg]

PGA*

You know what happens from AMD before Nvidia's Volta, right?

AMD's been toying with HBM for quite some time now. It's very likely that they'll beat Nvidia to the punch.

They might even beat out Intel. But who knows. Doesn't really matter, since all three will have stacked memory in the next year or so.

You wanna put a igp vs a GPU go ahead...and rememeber to dial down the settings on the IGP.
Bandwith will never make up for lack of performance...and a CPU + GPU combo will aways defeat CPU with ondie IGP in high end...as maxium die size limits performance per die.

And people keep forgetting.
Games are not a static size...the bar gets raised all the time..and IGP's will laways chase after...

 

[Homeles]

I'm not sure how that has anything to do with what I said, but alright!

 

[ShintaiDK]

You wanna put a igp vs a GPU go ahead...and rememeber to dial down the settings on the IGP.
Bandwith will never make up for lack of performance...and a CPU + GPU combo will aways defeat CPU with ondie IGP in high end...as maxium die size limits performance per die.

And people keep forgetting.
Games are not a static size...the bar gets raised all the time..and IGP's will laways chase after...

You keep forgetting that the IGP is advancing a lot faster than the dGPU. With Broadwell it looks like dGPUs up to 125 and maybe even 150$ is a goner. And thats after 20nm GPUs. Else we talk 200$+ dGPUs.

Its all about ROI. Sooner or later you belong to a segment that wont be served because there is no money in it. And the IGP will keep advancing.

 

[Qwertilot]

It isn't like intel (or AMD) have anything notably more interesting to do with all the extra die space than push the IGP

Games wont be improving that fast. Like with the last generation they'll be very much pegged to the new gen consoles for the next 5(+) years. That's a fixed, relatively modest, performance target on a 1900 * 1080 monitor.

Still, the timescales do look likely to leave 4K monitors coming fairly mainstream about the time when DGPU would get really threatened. VR goggles maybe too?

 

[Fjodor2001]

Intel sales are divided 65/35 favoring notebooks. Last AMD public number was around 50/50.

Yes, so for and AMD and Intel combined it is around 60% laptop and 40% desktop. I.e. as I said earlier:

"The Desktop PC market is declining but is far from dead. Sales volume is close to laptop sales."

 

[mrmt]

You wanna put a igp vs a GPU go ahead...and rememeber to dial down the settings on the IGP.
Bandwith will never make up for lack of performance...and a CPU + GPU combo will aways defeat CPU with ondie IGP in high end...as maxium die size limits performance per die..

The thing is, you can say the same for almost every hardware out there. USB hubs, sound cards, sata controllers.... eveything will be faster/better on the dedicated device, but nobody cares, because what you get with the CPU is good enough.

5 years ago iGPUs were joke, not even enough for HTPC, the fact that now we are discussing whether they will overtake dGPU in some market brackets is proof that:

- The iGPU power is growing faster than the dGPU, otherwise we wouldn't perceive the performance delta shrinking.

- The iGPU power is growing faster than the workloads requiring it, otherwise they would still be jokes.

So while you enjoy a discrete setup, it will head for extinction by the end of the decade.

 

[mrmt]

Yes, so for and AMD and Intel combined it is around 60% laptop and 40% desktop. I.e. as I said earlier:

"The Desktop PC market is declining but is far from dead. Sales volume is close to laptop sales."

AMD is too small, the mix should be 37/63.

But even if your numbers were correct, you are saying that notebooks sales are 50% bigger than desktops. I can't see how you can consider this "close" by any standards.

 

[shrewdgamer]

What is Broadwell's desktop lineup expected to be like?

 

[Fjodor2001]

AMD is too small, the mix should be 37/63.

But even if your numbers were correct, you are saying that notebooks sales are 50% bigger than desktops. I can't see how you can consider this "close" by any standards.

AMD is not that small. The split is 80/20 between AMD and Intel, see:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-intel-cpu-processor,15041.html

So the 60/40 split between laptops/desktop CPUs is quite accurate. And that's definitely close by any normal standard. Only 10% from each side of a 50/50 split. If they would have been any closer, like a 53/47 split, I'd call it more or less equal instead.

But you're free to use any definition you'd like of course, and I don't intend to argue with you over this any further. If you still think the desktop market (35-40% of total PC CPU sales) is nothing worth focusing on, while the minuscule HTPC market at perhaps 1% market share is, then be my guest.

 

[Lonbjerg]

You keep forgetting that the IGP is advancing a lot faster than the dGPU. With Broadwell it looks like dGPUs up to 125 and maybe even 150$ is a goner. And thats after 20nm GPUs. Else we talk 200$+ dGPUs.

Its all about ROI. Sooner or later you belong to a segment that wont be served because there is no money in it. And the IGP will keep advancing.

So far IGP's are picking up the low hanging fruit...the "progress" will hit a wall..and I don't want a crap IGP in my CPU thx.

 

[Homeles]

So far IGP's are picking up the low hanging fruit...the "progress" will hit a wall..and I don't want a crap IGP in my CPU thx.

The wall is removed with stacked DRAM.

 

[Lonbjerg]

No...even unlimited bandwith would not yield unlimited performance.