Breaking News: Crash @ Reno Air Races

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Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
twinrider1 said:
In addition to the apparently missing trim tab, it's odd that the tail wheel is out like that. Certainly points to some type of mechanical issues. I have my A&P, but I don't know the specific sequence of how the P-51 gear cycles. I wouldn't think he'd have the time to open the gear, or want to at that speed.
RIP.
Click to expand...

Unless they had changed the timing, the gear doors for the mains should be at least partially open by the time the tail wheel is out.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAKFLTrQtxk (At 0:28 you can see the tail wheel pop out in the lower left corner as the mains start to open)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdLWZZakaEY (better view of the tailwheel, but as the description says the mains are cycling differently here due to a weaker hydraulic pump)
 
D

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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twinrider1 said:
In addition to the apparently missing trim tab, it's odd that the tail wheel is out like that. Certainly points to some type of mechanical issues. I have my A&P, but I don't know the specific sequence of how the P-51 gear cycles. I wouldn't think he'd have the time to open the gear, or want to at that speed.
RIP.
Click to expand...

Could you please explain exactly what a trim tab is and what it does? Could it be the cause of him losing almost complete control of the plane?

I don't know much about planes but it seems like that wouldn't have had such a drastic effect on the craft but then again at that low of an altitude and at that speed you have virtually no time to adjust when things go wrong...

From what I have read it sounds like he pulled up to avoid going straight into the bleachers which would have killed 10 times more people (at least) and instead hit the area that his friends and family where in.

My thoughts are with the family of the dead and wounded, what a horrible tragedy.
 
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KingstonU

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2006
1,405
16
81
I suppose, in a sort-of twisted way, that since it went almost straight down, that the affected area of the crash (and thus the number of casualties!) was much smaller than had it been a more horizontal trajectory.
 
sactoking

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,581
2,814
136
I live in the area and it's been a rough couple of weeks for northern Nevada. First the IHOP shooting and then this (Reno is about 20 minutes north of Carson City).

I wasn't there yesterday but I know several people who were, including a photog who was snapping pilot pictures during the races. Sounds like the plane came around the third turn, near the box seats, and the pilot was having trouble. He pulled the plane up to get altitude, which is SOP in an air race when you have mechanical trouble, and then something happened, and engine stall or cutout perhaps, the plane inverted, and went straight into the ground and the box seats.

It was free ticket day for all the Reno schools but all the kids had left an hour earlier, thankfully.

The pilot pulling up as he did saved the plane from crashing straight into the grandstand. As bad as things are, that would have been 10-100x worse.

Air races have been canceled this year and the future of the event is now in question.

The air races have been going on for 44 years. In that time there have been 19 fatalities, all of them pilots. These are the first spectator injuries/fatalities.
 
twinrider1

twinrider1

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2003
4,096
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Darwin333 said:
Could you please explain exactly what a trim tab is and what it does? Could it be the cause of him losing almost complete control of the plane?...
Click to expand...

No, I don't think a missing trim tab would be catastrophic in and of itself, but it could point to a larger issue. And just to be clear, we don't know for sure that it was missing. It looks like it, but we don't know for sure.
You want the plane to fly straight and level without having to constantly apply pressure to the yoke/stick.
Let's say you're tail heavy and you have to hold the elevator "down" to keep level. You don't want to have to be pushing the yoke forward the entire flight, so the trim tab acts like a mini elevator to hold the main elevator in that spot for you.

This probably explains it better than I did
 
DrunkenSano

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
novasatori said:
i didn't see this one linked, but this one is the best I saw, the sound is just crazy

the dude filming only stops when he realizes the plane is about to hit near him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtERSeYMUM
Click to expand...

That was an interesting sound when it was about to hit, don't think you can hear anything like that anywhere else. Like a swooeeeeeeeeesh before the crash.

Also why did the plane go into a climb then inverted half loop into the ground? If he was having engine trouble or some damage on the plane, can't he just glide away into the desert and try to land somewhere?
 
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emilyek

Senior member
Mar 1, 2005
511
0
0
Analog said:
Check out the missing control surface on the tail:

gss-110916-reno-crash-2.grid-8x2.jpg
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we be seeing the pilot's head?
 
MarkXIX

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
It is amazing how something like an aluminum aircraft simply disintigrates on impact and doesn't leave a nice, airplane shaped hole at the point of impact.
 
skyking

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,365
5,323
146
twinrider1 said:
No, I don't think a missing trim tab would be catastrophic in and of itself, but it could point to a larger issue. And just to be clear, we don't know for sure that it was missing. It looks like it, but we don't know for sure.
You want the plane to fly straight and level without having to constantly apply pressure to the yoke/stick.
Let's say you're tail heavy and you have to hold the elevator "down" to keep level. You don't want to have to be pushing the yoke forward the entire flight, so the trim tab acts like a mini elevator to hold the main elevator in that spot for you.

This probably explains it better than I did
Click to expand...

Yes it is missing, and yes it is totally catastrophic. once it departs the plane will pitch up at those speeds with tremendous G-forces. Those forces probably ripped the tail gear out of the uplocks. The pilot really had no chance and no control of the aircraft after that moment.
A friend of mine lost pitch control in a similar fashion in a small biplane at low level, and he barely got out and popped his chute. He landed a few seconds later almost on top of the wreckage.
I fly and work on general aviation aircraft.

EDIT: thanks for that link, it is really very helpful. Someone asked what it does and that link explains it very well.
To explain the catastrophic nature of that failure, you need to look at the forces involved.
The P-51 will fly slower than 100 MPH. In that condition, the tab will not be deflected and applying force on the elevator very much. This plane was flying near 500 MPH. As you gain airspeed, you add more and more trim to increase down force from the tail. The aerodynamic loads at that speed are huge, that tab is taking a beating. Once it leaves, the stick forces would be in the hundreds of pounds.
 
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Arkaign

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Gardener said:
Box seat + 80yo pilots = bad idea.
Click to expand...

Pilot was 74 and in all probability a total boss.

All initial reports indicate that there was some indication of mechanical failure, and that he was able to get the craft at least pointed away from the main stands before it went down. This could have been so much worse if he came in at a clipping angle across the stands.

There are air shows all over the place, and although tragic events like this one sometimes happen, it's fairly rare for anyone but the pilot to perish when things go wrong.
 
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Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
I'm shocked the videos are still up, especially the graphic one. I guess youtube gave up.

But yes, very shocking. There are at least two people missing legs in that video...... :eek:

Edit: Here's a good slow mo of the first video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LUDzqv_0UQ
 
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F

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
I would be really interested to hear some sort of report on how the first responders performed. I'm taking an EMT-type course right now and Thursday we did multiple casualty incidents and triage, pretty rough stuff (60 seconds to tag a patient black (dead or going to be dead), red (first to get help), yellow (can wait for help), or green (can get up and walk to you).

Not very often you get to practice though so I'm curious how well they performed and what mistakes they made.
 
GodlessAstronomer

GodlessAstronomer

Lifer
Oct 27, 2007
17,009
1
0
KingstonU said:
I suppose, in a sort-of twisted way, that since it went almost straight down, that the affected area of the crash (and thus the number of casualties!) was much smaller than had it been a more horizontal trajectory.
Click to expand...
True. In all of the videos I'm amazed out how small an area is affected. There's very little debris flying around, it seems rather contained.
 
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