Brand Reliability Predictions for 2010

[BassBomb]

Canada + US live off each other enough that I consider an American car "domestic" just as much as I do a Canadian car

I don't count Mexico as domestic, however.

 

[BassBomb]

This is true about nearly every demographic. Japanese fanboys do exactly the same thing every time a report comes out that Toyota is losing it's quality edge. They tout the reason they buy a Toyota Camry is because of its reliability (I couldn't imagine another reason you would), but then dismiss the Ford Fusion because it is "American" (and thus automatically trash). Funny how that "American" car beats the Camry in every way...especially in reliability.

And those Honda transmission problems...just a fluke. Yeah...a fluke that has hit nearly every person that I know who has a Accord, TL, or Odyssey made with that transmission model.

Have you ever talked to a German? There is no way a German car could ever fail based on their opinions (despite mountains of information disagreeing with them).

The point is, every demographic will more easily dismiss information that degrades the things they like...and push the information that improves the reputation of the things they like...its human nature....so don't get all high and mighty on us.

I work in a German Company (subsidary of MAN AG) and I know this completely!! Plenty of German colleagues and they all say Audi is the best German car manufacturer.

I agree with your final statement about demographics. I definitely experienced this from 2003+ when Renaults philopsophy really came to play in Nissan's products and I was a die-hard Nissan fan (for having 1992 Stanza, 1996 I30t, 2000 I30). I was dissapointed with the turn of their products after 2003 and no longer was die-hard and my perception of car brands changed significantly.

Currently drive and love Honda's the most. I now acknowledge the validity of US competition (mostly in Ford). Also being older and having driven in more cars now, I also see how awesome European cars are, just the cost of owning one is a turn off.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

This is true about nearly every demographic. Japanese fanboys do exactly the same thing every time a report comes out that Toyota is losing its quality edge. They tout the reason they buy a Toyota Camry is because of its reliability (I couldn't imagine another reason you would), but then dismiss the Ford Fusion because it is "American" (and thus automatically trash). Funny how that "American" car beats the Camry in every way...especially in reliability.

And those Honda transmission problems...just a fluke. Yeah...a fluke that has hit nearly every person that I know who has a Accord, TL, or Odyssey made with that transmission model.

Have you ever talked to a German? There is no way a German car could ever fail based on their opinions (despite mountains of information disagreeing with them).

The point is, every demographic will more easily dismiss information that degrades the things they like...and push the information that improves the reputation of the things they like...its human nature....so don't get all high and mighty on us.

hmm every demographic will tout their own "nation's" brands, just like what you did in your opening paragraph of this post: talk shit about your "competitors" and promote you favorites.

so you say that toyota fans will promote toyotas when the going gets rough for them, taking that same idea and applying it to all the GM & FORD make good cars NOW is the same as saying GM & Ford is getting it rough now. which is kind of true; GM went bankrupt within the last year and Ford was inches away from it.

very nice!

 

[Arkaign]

hmm every demographic will tout their own "nation's" brands, just like what you did in your opening paragraph of this post: talk shit about your "competitors" and promote you favorites.

so you say that toyota fans will promote toyotas when the going gets rough for them, taking that same idea and applying it to all the GM & FORD make good cars NOW is the same as saying GM & Ford is getting it rough now. which is kind of true; GM went bankrupt within the last year and Ford was inches away from it.

very nice!

No, not every demographic touts only their brands while talking shit about 'competitors'. I, and most sane people in this forum, frequently recommend cars from the US, Europe, and Asia, as long as they are a good fit for the buyer. At the same time, I frequently advise against certain models/brands, depending on the needs/wants of the buyer/owner.

It's called having common sense and OBJECTIVITY.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

No, not every demographic touts only their brands while talking shit about 'competitors'. I, and most sane people in this forum, frequently recommend cars from the US, Europe, and Asia, as long as they are a good fit for the buyer. At the same time, I frequently advise against certain models/brands, depending on the needs/wants of the buyer/owner.

It's called having common sense and OBJECTIVITY.

very reasonably said, please note i was repeating what picklepete said

 

[PricklyPete]

hmm every demographic will tout their own "nation's" brands, just like what you did in your opening paragraph of this post: talk shit about your "competitors" and promote you favorites.

so you say that toyota fans will promote toyotas when the going gets rough for them, taking that same idea and applying it to all the GM & FORD make good cars NOW is the same as saying GM & Ford is getting it rough now. which is kind of true; GM went bankrupt within the last year and Ford was inches away from it.

very nice!

When did I say I was immune to the same issue? I specifically said it was human nature...so unless I had a virgin birth or came from another galaxy I'd likely be subject to the same tendencies. My point was he was being ignorant/high and mighty acting like this wasn't normal and that he didn't do this himself.

And your comment is pretty ignorant...I own Japanese vehicles (including a Toyota...gasp) and haven't owned a domestic product in a while. My next vehicle will likely be a German car. Regardless, Ford Fusion still kicks the Camry's ass. Get over it.

I don't think I've ever read anyone's posts that define the word troll better than yours.

 

[StageLeft]

Porsche over subaru and nissan? no way, don't believe it.

 

[ultimatebob]

MINI went down 14 spots?!? Why? Their newer 2007+ models are proving to be more reliable than their older models were.

 

[zmatt]

Why is everyone bashing mitsu's reliability? I have never heard anything bad regarding it.

 

[Bignate603]

MINI went down 14 spots?!? Why? Their newer 2007+ models are proving to be more reliable than their older models were.

That's exactly what I said. It's pretty obvious that their rating scheme has no real basis on reality.

 

[Strk]

I believe it was specifically for Toyota, but didn't CR say they'd stop use past history in place of actual testing for a car's reliability?

That list is a joke. The top brands are usually the same ones every year (Lexus, Mercury, Cadillac, Buick etc)

 

[marincounty]

I'm laughing at some of you for ignoring the news because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that Toyota and japanese cars are crap. CR may not be that great in their reporting on cars, but their basic data is superior to anyone else. They get 1.4 million responses from readers, and they don't take money for advertising, like all of the other auto magazines.

The JD Power ratings are more suspect, based on much smaller sample size and over shorter periods of time. However, the JD Power and CR both agree that Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Scion are the most dependable cars.

You may not like that japanese cars are more reliable than American cars, it's just the truth. The Ford Fusion may be a better car than the Camry, but it is too soon to tell.
The Camry has been a very reliable car for years, Ford not so much.

Those of you doubting Scion, they topped the list of the most reliable car.

 

[StageLeft]

I'm laughing at some of you for ignoring the news because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that Toyota and japanese cars are crap.

Toyota and Honda are among the best, constantly. Everyone knows this. But sorry I don't really believe that if I buy a Porsche I'm going to have less issues with it than a Nissan.

 

[Arkaign]

I'm laughing at some of you for ignoring the news because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that Toyota and japanese cars are crap. CR may not be that great in their reporting on cars, but their basic data is superior to anyone else. They get 1.4 million responses from readers, and they don't take money for advertising, like all of the other auto magazines.

The JD Power ratings are more suspect, based on much smaller sample size and over shorter periods of time. However, the JD Power and CR both agree that Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Scion are the most dependable cars.

You may not like that japanese cars are more reliable than American cars, it's just the truth. The Ford Fusion may be a better car than the Camry, but it is too soon to tell.
The Camry has been a very reliable car for years, Ford not so much.

Those of you doubting Scion, they topped the list of the most reliable car.

What? I have no preconceived notions about Toyota that they are crap, nor of the general Japanese makers. I hold Toyota in good regard, albeit not as high as they once were and not without a couple of mishaps along the way (all companies are like this).

The problems lie here : Consumer reports is a ludicrously unscientific 'survey', and is much more a function of their customer satisfaction/anger/memory quotient than real verifiable fact. J.D. Power is slightly better and worse at the same time, they have a much more specific and stringent reporting study for their participants, but the study ignores data beyond a very short time frame (90 days for initial, and a 3-year-old car is their bastardized definition of 'long' term).

Long term for me means looking not just at years, but also at use and mileage. I want to see data on cars with 100k, 150k, and 200k miles on them. I want to know if they are still on the original drivetrain. I want to see data on cars that are driven 30k miles a year in an urban environment. 3 years means almost nothing to me, beyond the fact that if the car has a significant failure during that time that it's probably a piece of shit.

The best I've seen, and it's still not perfect : http://www.truedelta.com/

http://www.autospies.com/news/Lates...olding-It-s-Own-For-Reliability-Issues-40883/

As far as I'm concerned, it's idiotic to be loyal to a region of the world, as the data from almost every direction shows that you really have to find a reliable model of car if you want it, even being loyal to a generally reliable brand can get you in trouble, as pretty much all of them put out lemons at one time or another, albeit some companies more so than others. I recommend Japanese vehicles very often on here, I also recommend many Fords and a few GM products. For the fun factor and for those prepared for enhanced general maintenance costs or who can perform their own maintenance, I often recommend European cars. Is this the act of a head-in-the-sand sort who thinks that US rules, Japan sucks? No, but I don't feel like sitting idly by while trolls use a hideously flawed excuse to bash an entire industry with a hammer.

 

[yh125d]

You may not like that japanese cars are more reliable than American cars, it's just the truth. The Ford Fusion may be a better car than the Camry, but it is too soon to tell.
The Camry has been a very reliable car for years, Ford not so much.

Noones making blanket statements that japanese cars are more reliable than american. YOU though, Are making blanket statements that Jap > Am

Too early to tell if fusion > camry? Its been out 4 years pal, and nothing but improving during those years. There's no doubt its a better car.



Sorry, but you're the one with the preconcieved notions. You're assuming that current camrys are good cars based on past models (bad assumption to make). Camry has never been a really good car. Its always been very safe and reliable, not necessarily a good car

 

[sandorski]

Toyota and Honda are among the best, constantly. Everyone knows this. But sorry I don't really believe that if I buy a Porsche I'm going to have less issues with it than a Nissan.

Direct Compare
==========================
Category Nissan Porsche
------------------------------------------
DriveTrain Very Good 8 Above Average 6
Exterior Good 7 Average 5
Interior Good 7 Good 7
Chick Magnet Butterface 1 Super Model 10
========================================
totals 23 28

There ya go

 

[Arkaign]

Direct Compare
==========================
Category Nissan Porsche
------------------------------------------
DriveTrain Very Good 8 Above Average 6
Exterior Good 7 Average 5
Interior Good 7 Good 7
Chick Magnet Butterface 1 Super Model 10
========================================
totals 23 28

There ya go

lol 🙂

 

[The J]

To be honest, I'm a little confused about what the chart is actually saying. It looks like it is showing the deviation from what is considered "average reliability", but what is "average reliability"? If cars today are generally considered to be very reliable, then being at the bottom of the chart would not necessarily imply that the car is junk, would it? I mean, is this a difference between "runs forever" vs. "fell apart after 20 miles" or would it be more like "ran great for 200,000 miles" vs. "ran great for 150,000 miles" (with the former being 33% more reliable than the latter)?

Also, how does one quantify a car being 20% more reliable or 30% than another? Does this just mean that 30% more people with that car reported having problems?

Finally, I read on another site (I think it was TrueDelta) that some of these "problems per # of cars" reports do not specify what counts as a problem. So someone complaining about the feel of the radio knobs would have just as much weight as someone who had a catastrophic powertrain failure. Any insight as to whether this is true or not?

Not trying to start anything (it appears that you don't need me for that anyway 😛 ), but was curious about how studies like this worked.

 

[Strk]

I'm laughing at some of you for ignoring the news because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that Toyota and japanese cars are crap. CR may not be that great in their reporting on cars, but their basic data is superior to anyone else. They get 1.4 million responses from readers, and they don't take money for advertising, like all of the other auto magazines.

The JD Power ratings are more suspect, based on much smaller sample size and over shorter periods of time. However, the JD Power and CR both agree that Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Scion are the most dependable cars.

You may not like that japanese cars are more reliable than American cars, it's just the truth. The Ford Fusion may be a better car than the Camry, but it is too soon to tell.
The Camry has been a very reliable car for years, Ford not so much.

Those of you doubting Scion, they topped the list of the most reliable car.

And so you have a lack of basic understanding of statistics. It's ok, a lot of people have the same issue. CR fails right from the start because they use their readers. That's a biased source.

And size? So what. A biased source already screws up things enough, but size is irrelevant once you get to a certain point, which despite what people think, is pretty small.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

And so you have a lack of basic understanding of statistics. It's ok, a lot of people have the same issue. CR fails right from the start because they use their readers. That's a biased source.

And size? So what. A biased source already screws up things enough, but size is irrelevant once you get to a certain point, which despite what people think, is pretty small.

Just like polls use data from respondents. If you think polls are crap and you don't take calls from anyone else other than your friends and hang up immediately, then you can say polling for elections is completely rigged. The fact is this is AS GOOD as it gets. "You fail at statistics" is not the answer to everything. We all know there's no way you can make a perfect test in a large scale application like this. However, we have some real data here, and when you look at it, the data at least "makes sense." There was a thread earlier talking about VWs and Audis and people laughed at them saying things like "spending lots of $$$ and calling it maintenance." Well from what I've heard from others and what this chart shows, it MAKES SENSE. Toyota has gone down with a larger tail and you can pinpoint where that comes from....

Marincounty actually makes a pretty good point. While he may be jumping the gun a bit and putting words in people's mouths, you guys are all a little uptight about this report. Yes your car may not be at the top so you're complaining or whatever, and this may not be 100% accurate because after all it's a fvcking projection. It's not even 2010 yet. 2010 models have barely sold compared to the 09 models.

This isn't throwing darts in the blind. It's using an educated guess. It may have its flaws, but I guarantee you that the actuals aren't going to have Toyota at the bottom and Land Rover at the top meeting 6 sigma quality ok? You might have a shuffle here and there, but for the most part it's something you can accept and maybe realize there may be imperfections or exceptions.

Also what bugs me is when people say "Well the newer model is more reliable." Reliability is a function of maintenance/fixes needed over a long period of time. The notion that American cars = crap from the late 80s and 90s didn't settle in when it first happened. It became a major problem in the late 90s and even in the 2000s that bad taste is there. Hell the bad taste is there today still. Things take a while to adjust. Moreover, an 04 model that sucked overall isn't likely to have an overhaul in '05 and be spanking excellent in reliability. It's not just CR that's saying that, it's probably true from any manufacturing standpoint. You don't just flip flop 180 your manufacturing capability and make a jump. You can turn around and make things better, but don't say "omg the '09 model is the most reliable yet." That's crap because :

1) Not enough time to tell.
2) Look at CR. Every newer year gets a red (excellent) or at least marginal score because there's not enough time to judge the problems YET.
3) Rewind 5 years ago. People said the same things when the 2005 models first came out after the '04. I heard the same things. The newer one is the most reliable yet. Look back at CR now. That year gets a fat BLACK for being a piece of shit. Go on the forums and listen to people b!tch about how their 05 was a POS. Laugh at your friend for thinking the '05 was a 180 from the '04 and fixed everything.

 

[rchiu]

And so you have a lack of basic understanding of statistics. It's ok, a lot of people have the same issue. CR fails right from the start because they use their readers. That's a biased source.

And size? So what. A biased source already screws up things enough, but size is irrelevant once you get to a certain point, which despite what people think, is pretty small.

Heh, showing a little desperation trying to defend domestic brands are we? Care to explain why CR readers biased? Are they Japanese or German only buying brands from their country? Are they not cosumers in the US buying cars in the US with actual experience with cars in the US market?

And if you REALLY understand statistics, you'd know sample size it one of the most important factor in any statistical analysis and it's never irrelevant. Especially when you are dealing with 20+ brands each with 20+ models.

By the way, I got a master's degree in engineering. If you wanna debate statistic any day, you are welcome to pm me.

 

[Strk]

Heh, showing a little desperation trying to defend domestic brands are we? Care to explain why CR readers biased? Are they Japanese or German only buying brands from their country? Are they not cosumers in the US buying cars in the US with actual experience with cars in the US market?

And if you REALLY understand statistics, you'd know sample size it one of the most important factor in any statistical analysis and it's never irrelevant. Especially when you are dealing with 20+ brands each with 20+ models.

By the way, I got a master's degree in engineering. If you wanna debate statistic any day, you are welcome to pm me.

I said irrelevant after a certain point. I suppose better wording would be considerably less, even approaching statistically insignificant, after a certain point.

And everyone is biased. CR uses its readers for its info. One of the absolute most basic rules of doing statistics is make sure your sample is random.

 

[AMCRambler]

This is true about nearly every demographic. Japanese fanboys do exactly the same thing every time a report comes out that Toyota is losing its quality edge. They tout the reason they buy a Toyota Camry is because of its reliability (I couldn't imagine another reason you would), but then dismiss the Ford Fusion because it is "American" (and thus automatically trash). Funny how that "American" car beats the Camry in every way...especially in reliability.

And those Honda transmission problems...just a fluke. Yeah...a fluke that has hit nearly every person that I know who has a Accord, TL, or Odyssey made with that transmission model.

Have you ever talked to a German? There is no way a German car could ever fail based on their opinions (despite mountains of information disagreeing with them).

The point is, every demographic will more easily dismiss information that degrades the things they like...and push the information that improves the reputation of the things they like...its human nature....so don't get all high and mighty on us.

Preach it brother. My parents have been exclusively Honda owners for the past 10 years. My brother also went for a Honda with his current mini van. Of the 4 Hondas my family has owned, 2 of them have had transmissions crap out. The 1991 Accord blew out reverse back in 1997-1998. And my brothers 2002 Odyssey farked it's tranny this summer when they were on the road traveling. From our experience it's a 50/50 chance you're gonna need a new tranny on your Honda in 7 years. That kinda sucks.

Now Honda isn't the only one with transmission woes. I'm not pitching a one sided argument here. Lincolns from what I hear are pretty notorious for bad trannies too. My pops friend has a Lincoln Town Car circa 2000 that's on it's 3rd. My Aunt had an older Lincoln, maybe late 90's that would eat transmissions for breakfast. It's unfortunate because Hondas and Lincolns are otherwise good cars. Because a transmission is so costly to replace though, they get this stigma attached to them.

 

[iamwiz82]

Finally, I read on another site (I think it was TrueDelta) that some of these "problems per # of cars" reports do not specify what counts as a problem. So someone complaining about the feel of the radio knobs would have just as much weight as someone who had a catastrophic powertrain failure. Any insight as to whether this is true or not?

Consumer Reports' survey asks the person filling it out to mark if they they had a problem that they consider serious and then to mark what system had the issue.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

i thought ford was supposed to be getting better.

toyota is def. not as good as they once were.