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Brain(hulk?) surgeon: There's no point wearing bicycle helmets

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Muse said:
The best injury prevention strategy when riding a bike is not to have an accident. Yes, that would seem to be prema facie obvious, but people often don't ride quite like that. I see people doing things I used to do but no longer, such as riding busy commuter streets with cars whizzing by them on the left, parked cars whizzing past them on the right by less than 2 feet, even as little as 1 foot. That scenario alone has the makings of an accident to be, it's just a question of how soon, and it's apt to be not long.

When I see people wearing bike helmets, and it's probably the majority of riders in my vicinity, my take is quite often that they are conforming to community standards of behavior/dress, not that they are self aware or particularly aware of the nature of their surroundings.
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If you are hit by a car in a busy commuter scenario as you described, a styrofoam hat isn't going to prevent serious injury when that car runs you over.
 
Rakehellion said:
Is this motherfucker serious?
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Are you fucking stupid? There is a reason they teach this shit in self defense classes as well as the military when it comes to falling situations. Proper falling technique will save you from more severe injuries due to falling. Are you fucking serious that you don't know this shit?

The speeds at which the average bike commuter travels at on their bike on mostly flat roadways isn't going to be enough to cause severe enough injury to cause major head trauma should the rider have an accident that doesn't involve a motor vehicle. THAT is what the experts such as the brain surgeon mentioned in the OP are saying as well as almost every major biking club group now. A couple of which I posted links to. A styrofoam hat is marginal protection and nothing more. In the right scenario accident it can help prevent a more serious injury that could possibly lead to death, but the chances of that happening a commuter scenario for a bike rider are even less likely than winning Powerball. If you think otherwise for whatever reason, despite the information presented by actual experts in the field and logical dictates, then you are the stupid motherfucker.
 
HumblePie said:
Are you fucking stupid? There is a reason they teach this shit in self defense classes as well as the military when it comes to falling situations. Proper falling technique will save you from more severe injuries due to falling. Are you fucking serious that you don't know this shit?

The speeds at which the average bike commuter travels at on their bike on mostly flat roadways isn't going to be enough to cause severe enough injury to cause major head trauma should the rider have an accident that doesn't involve a motor vehicle. THAT is what the experts such as the brain surgeon mentioned in the OP are saying as well as almost every major biking club group now. A couple of which I posted links to. A styrofoam hat is marginal protection and nothing more. In the right scenario accident it can help prevent a more serious injury that could possibly lead to death, but the chances of that happening a commuter scenario for a bike rider are even less likely than winning Powerball. If you think otherwise for whatever reason, despite the information presented by actual experts in the field and logical dictates, then you are the stupid motherfucker.
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:biggrin:
 
HumblePie said:
The speeds at which the average bike commuter travels at on their bike on mostly flat roadways isn't going to be enough to cause severe enough injury to cause major head trauma should the rider have an accident that doesn't involve a motor vehicle.
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I'm not sure if you're deliberately ignoring reality or trolling.

If the speed is so important, as it is in your repeated posts, can you explain how people who are standing or walking fall, hit their heads and then die as a result of their brain injury?


This happens to children, adults and the elderly and they're not moving fast. How would you factor in speed in those type of incidents?
 
Do a barrel roll!

9WGahO7.jpg
 
HumblePie said:
Are you fucking stupid? There is a reason they teach this shit in self defense classes as well as the military when it comes to falling situations. Proper falling technique will save you from more severe injuries due to falling. Are you fucking serious that you don't know this shit?
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This is why I always wear leather gloves, both when bicycle riding and roller skating, both of which I do a lot. I rarely wear a helmet biking, never when skating. Gloves have saved my skin many times skating, maybe a time or two biking. They help immensely in breaking a fall. They allow you to do so without reducing the palms of your hands to bloody pulp. :ninja: Also, it's a lot more comfortable to wear gloves that fit than any bike helmet I've ever had the displeasure of strapping on my head. I do always wear a baseball cap. In the daytime it shields my eyes from glare and at night provides a little thermal insulation.
 
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Hayabusa Rider said:
<snip>
The helmet protects the head, but overall more people are harmed and die. From a health care policy perspective in this scenario which is better, to mandate or not?
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Considering I didn't even mention mandating anything, I'll still answer your question.

For adults, I don't believe anything should be mandated (not literally everything, but helmets, seatbelts, etc.) since they're adults and can make choices while hopefully understanding the risks and dangers (well, maybe not). Anything that could fall under the law where the law's intent is to "protect people/adults from themselves", I'm probably okay with doing away with it.

But children, for me, are different. They're not capable of understanding risk. They can't understand their actions and possible consequences until they're much older. Due to their mental and physical immaturity, children do need to be protected from themselves.

For children, off the top of my head, I believe car seats, helmets, vaccines (and probably a lot more) should be mandated.
 
ajskydiver said:
I'm not sure if you're deliberately ignoring reality or trolling.
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Seriously. Anecdotal evidence is unreliable at best, but I'm too busy right now to find primary research on the matter. Maybe later.

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Richardson#Injury_and_death

(2) Almost exactly a year ago, a dear friend of mine was in a bike accident involving a car. She had 8 surgeries--some to relieve intracranial pressure. The only reason she's both alive and not severely brain-damaged (expected to make a full recovery, but head injuries often require a lot of time, and she's still having issues with nausea and her memory) is that she had a helmet on and was wearing it properly.

Also, learning a proper falling technique and actually implementing that technique when you have no (or very little) time to mentally prepare are two VERY different things. It also assumes that the environment will allow for you to implement the technique properly even if you have the time to prepare for it.
 
ajskydiver said:
I'm not sure if you're deliberately ignoring reality or trolling.

If the speed is so important, as it is in your repeated posts, can you explain how people who are standing or walking fall, hit their heads and then die as a result of their brain injury?


This happens to children, adults and the elderly and they're not moving fast. How would you factor in speed in those type of incidents?
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People that fall and hit their heads to cause serious injury only do so when they impact a "point" such as the edge of a curb or a point of a rock and take the full impact of the fall on their head. Speed adds to force. Still the adult human body has enough force when falling to cause serious head injury if that force isn't disperse properly. Children actually do not have enough force. As they lack the mass of an adult as well as being lower to the ground to not have enough time to build up acceleration due to gravity to cause a severe head injury from falling alone. Unless they hit their head on a spike which will then be able to pinpoint the force of a child's fall into a small enough surface area to cause severe damage. But that is for just falling from a standing up position with no additional force added due to vector.

People that just fall down and receive a serious head injury from the fall as an adult do so because they fell badly and had the force of the fall are impact on a small spot on their head. Usually the back area of the head that bumps out.

Elderly are at worse risk because their heads actually are less resistant to force based off impact to cause a severe injury. Due to the brittleness of their bones from the aging process.

Speed is important when it comes to force because it relates directly to the amount force in an accident. This is why having a car wreck at higher speeds tends to result in more fatalities the faster the speed. The same thing correlates directly with bike riders or even pedestrians. The faster you are moving, the more force of momentum your body has. Coming to a sudden stop when your body has built up force can cause injury if the force isn't displaced properly. This is why you wear seatbelts in a car. The force of a high speed crash can be displaced across the torso of your body, which is better able to deal with higher levels of force as well as being a larger surface area for displacement.

As for falling techniques, it comes down to training and knowing how to take a fall. Slipping and falling should never cause serious injury if you are trained properly to react. Never try to stop your fall with your hands for example unless that is the only way to prevent your head from hitting a small impact surface. As that is the natural tendency for people that fall is to stick their arms out to stop themselves. That tends to lead to broken hands, fingers, wrists, and arms because the person is making the force of the fall be disperse on a small impact area of the hands. There is also a difference between "knowing" how to take a fall and actually having your body trained to take a fall. In most falling scenarios your body does not have time to think through the reaction needed. If you are falling your body is going to react the natural way to a fall which is typically the bad way to fall. You must train your body to fall properly each and every time. The only way to do this is to put yourself into positions where you will fall from various scenarios. When I was taught how to ride a bike, part of how I was taught when I was little was how to take that fall. Because it WILL happen.
 
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HumblePie said:
People that fall and hit their heads to cause serious injury only do so when they impact a "point" such as the edge of a curb or a point of a rock and take the full impact of the fall on their head.

etc etc etc
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[The most condescending facepalm jpg imaginable]

Hopefully someone else will take the time to break this down.
 
Darknite39 said:
[The most condescending facepalm jpg imaginable]

Hopefully someone else will take the time to break this down.
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You seriously do not know physics at all if you don't know about force and force displacement to think that anything I mentioned was wrong.

Most people that fall, even over backwards will roll a bit with their fall. They take much of the force on the back of their legs, ass, and backside. Even if their head eventually comes into contact with a flat hard surface, the force of the impact is only going to likely lead to a bad bump or a small gash. This is for a flat surface like a street, sidewalk, or hard floor.

The only times people fall and cause serious head injury from a standing position is because their head impacts with a very small hard surface area and/or they fell down in such a way that no parts of their body dispersed any of the falling force. Which I've seen when some people get socked hard enough in the jaw. The force of them being hit stuns them and locks up their muscles. They fall backwards as flat as board. Hitting their head on a hard surface after such a hit is what causes severe head injuries or death based on the fall.
 
HumblePie said:
People that fall and hit their heads to cause serious injury only do so when they impact a "point" such as the edge of a curb or a point of a rock and take the full impact of the fall on their head. Really? Every single person? Obviously, you can "fall badly" and not hit a small impact point and still have a serious injury.
<snip>
Children actually do not have enough force. Uh, ok.
<snip>
People that just fall down and receive a serious head injury from the fall as an adult do so because they fell badly and had the force of the fall are impact on a small spot on their head.Not always. Usually the back area of the head that bumps out.
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Okay, gotcha. Am I understanding you in that your argument is that if you fall don't fall badly and avoid sharp objects as you fall?

(I've seen the "learning how to fall" posts and there is validity in that, but just because you can learn it, doesn't mean you'll have time to apply it. But anyway...)
 
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Darknite39 said:
I'm not taking issue with physics, I'm taking issue with your severe underestimation of the fragility of brain tissue.
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Where did I state I am underestimated the fragility of brain tissue or the head in general? I stated that a proper rider can negate impact forces to the head for almost any non motor vehicle accident as a bike rider on a normal biking commute. I have stated quite emphatically that if you are biking in such a way to induce higher levels of risk for possible head impact you should be wearing a helmet. That is not at all what you are trying to fabricate with your statement here.
 
ajskydiver said:
Okay, gotcha. Am I understanding you in that your argument is that if you fall don't fall badly and avoid sharp objects as you fall?

(I've seen the "learning how to fall" posts and there is validity in that, but just because you can learn it, doesn't mean you'll have time to apply it. But anyway...)
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There is a difference between "learning" it and actually training for it. You can train your body to do it each and every single time. It is something worth practicing because it is far more likely to save your life than a silly styrofoam hat you may wear on a simple bike commute. Many experts have explained the dubious level of protection such helmets actually provide. If you are actively involving yourself in risky enough actions that would make it a very good idea to have a helmet on, then it is probably better to wear a full helm than a styrofoam hat.
 
HumblePie said:
Which is all you have ever been on these forums. Thanks for calling yourself out this time.
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I would say that in every thread that you spend time in, I still can't tell if you're a retard or a troll. And this one is no different. B/c you can't seriously believe what you're posting.

I've been road cycling, mtb/cyclo-cross racing, bike commuting, etc for way too long and have had my share of falls and have been hit by a couple of cars. In only a couple of times, did I have time to fall/land properly. And in some of those cases, my helmet has saved me from serious injury.

From friends and other cyclists, their stories are the similar, so I find it hilarious all of the garbage you are spewing here.
 
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