Born the wrong species

[umbrella39]

Wow guys, this tabloid trash really has everyone worked up.

Riprorin troll thread = success then...

 

[buckshot24]

How society is reacting? By my observation, most of society is supportive and not too concerned with it. Aren't you just talking about your little closed circle of friends

I don't have a problem with people accepting reality and that Bruce is a man.

It's a matter of priority.

I think you're making some assumptions about me that are false. I'm talking to you on a forum, not to Bruce in real life.

I have a high regard for objectivity, arguable a thing subjective though... I just don't put it above people. Some people don't care how they hurt other people. I'm not one of those. See, there's one difference between us.

If you thought you were a rock how is it hurtful to tell you that you aren't a rock? How is it not hurtful to allow you to live your life as a rock without saying anything?

And, have you ever met someone like that? You really are attached to your little black and white world, are't you?

Its called hyperbole.

 

[Fern]

For my opinion on this please see my user name.



fern

 

[chipwitch]

buckshot, the downfall of society won't be because of people like Katelyn Jenner. It will be because they no longer respect others. You have no further to look than your own home.

I don't need to know you to say any of the things I've said. Everything I've written has been based on what you've demonstrated in this forum.

I hear what you're saying. It's okay to talk smack about someone behind their back. If you think that's not even more disrespectful, then you're sadly misguided. I'll defend you this much, I don't think you'd hesitate to be just as disrespectful to Katelyn's face are you are behind her back. Further, this is not a private conversation, not that that would excuse your disregard for the feelings of others, it's a public searchable forum.

Hyperbole, while sometimes entertaining, is often the last resort. A sign of weak intellectually honest arguments. While I've tried to have a rationed conversation with you, you repeatedly want to make this about Kate Jenner's gender. Instead of trying to respect her, you continue to use a name that she no longer has, legally; use the most hurtful pronoun to reference her, knowing that it is the worst thing you could possibly say (if she were lurking). That is the very definition of disrespect. It's the most divisive behavior in the US. No one is expecting you to stand up and say, "Katelyn Jenner is a woman!" That would require someone with sensitivity and respect. But, you could at least say something like, "I'm sure Katelyn has some sort of pain that I can't comprehend," and leave it at that. No, you'd rather call her "Bruce" and "HE and just be mean. I suspect you aren't a very nice person in real life and I am quite content in not knowing you. You can't claim to be a respectful person and only respect people like you. That would be too easy.

I've said my peace. I'm sorry we couldn't have learned a little something from the experience.

 

[chipwitch]

For my opinion on this please see my user name.



fern

High FROND!!

 

[DigDog]

 

[MajinCry]

What was that tolerate nonsense being spewed earlier?

If it ain't hurting anybody, ain't nothing wrong with it. Sure, it's rather odd and a bit loopy, but that's all it is.

Now, if these people were forming hordes based upon their belief of being an animal, committing mass rape and molestation...Aye, that'd be fucked.

But they ain't.

 

[buckshot24]

buckshot, the downfall of society won't be because of people like Katelyn Jenner.

It will be because they no longer respect others. You have no further to look than your own home.

I didn't claim it was Bruce's fault or people like him.

I hear what you're saying. It's okay to talk smack about someone behind their back. If you think that's not even more disrespectful, then you're sadly misguided. I'll defend you this much, I don't think you'd hesitate to be just as disrespectful to Katelyn's face are you are behind her back. Further, this is not a private conversation, not that that would excuse your disregard for the feelings of others, it's a public searchable forum.

Bruce is a man, it isn't disrespectful to say that. If the truth hurts then you're doing something wrong, not the one telling the truth.

Hyperbole, while sometimes entertaining, is often the last resort. A sign of weak intellectually honest arguments.

Focus on the point instead of going on about this irrelevance.

While I've tried to have a rationed conversation with you, you repeatedly want to make this about Kate Jenner's gender.

You've accused me of a few things that aren't true and are you saying Bruce Jenner wanting to live as a woman can't be discussed rationally?

Instead of trying to respect her, you continue to use a name that she no longer has, legally; use the most hurtful pronoun to reference her, knowing that it is the worst thing you could possibly say (if she were lurking).

As I've said, if the truth hurts your feelings then you are doing something wrong.

That is the very definition of disrespect.

I do not respect obvious delusion. Why should any of us?

It's the most divisive behavior in the US. No one is expecting you to stand up and say, "Katelyn Jenner is a woman!" That would require someone with sensitivity and respect.

And not a firm grip on reality. Bruce is a man.

But, you could at least say something like, "I'm sure Katelyn has some sort of pain that I can't comprehend," and leave it at that.

Absolutely, I couldn't imagine what he is going through.

No, you'd rather call her "Bruce" and "HE and just be mean. I suspect you aren't a very nice person in real life and I am quite content in not knowing you.

People love me. But Bruce is a man, that is the reality. I am sorry you are so hurt by the truth.

You can't claim to be a respectful person and only respect people like you. That would be too easy.

I think it is disrespectful to embrace a person's delusion. Truth matters and Bruce isn't a woman.

I've said my peace. I'm sorry we couldn't have learned a little something from the experience.

You've made this personal, which is a shame. You've made all sorts of personal remarks about me as if I have anything to do with the reality that Bruce is a man, like it is my fault for saying it. No, reality is that Bruce is a man whether you embrace his delusion or not.

It seems to me that you're taking this far too personally to be an outside observer.

 

[brycejones]

YABS24P

meh

 

[Victorian Gray]

What was that tolerate nonsense being spewed earlier?

If it ain't hurting anybody, ain't nothing wrong with it. Sure, it's rather odd and a bit loopy, but that's all it is.

Now, if these people were forming hordes based upon their belief of being an animal, committing mass rape and molestation...Aye, that'd be fucked.

But they ain't.

 

[flexy]

Caitlyn Jenner, "for all intents and purposes", is actually a woman.
Rest is irrelevant.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Caitlyn Jenner, "for all intents and purposes", is actually a woman.
Rest is irrelevant.

*Dude pretending to be a woman.

You can say he sexually identifies as a woman, but they aren't the same thing.

 

[chipwitch]

It seems to me that you're taking this far too personally to be an outside observer.

That's funny, I was thinking the same thing of you. Latency is often co-morbid with strong protestions of what others do. Another thing I find funny is you saying I've made it "personal." I've simply made some observations about you. It's not like I've called you an asshole or anything, whether or not I may think it. True, I don't like you. I don't like anyone who values ideals over people. Ideals are not absolute, nor objective. It's unlikely anyone in this thread hasn't been persecuted by someone else for no other reason than ideals. Oh yes, I have but you'd never guess why because it's so ridiculous. One has to look no further than the centuries conflict between various religion. Hell, even people who claim to worship the SAME god AND prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses, say the catholics are going to hell, the catholics say the protestants are, protestants are further divided into hundreds of other factions... each of which saying the others are all going to hell. Thousands of lives have been lost for that very thing. Maybe not quite so much killing there nowadays, but the underlying premise that my delusion is better than your delusion is predominant in nearly every religion. That's just one example of people putting ideals before people. It's clearly wrong, but people continue to do it... en mass.

I have no doubt people love you. Trump is a great example of someone who incites hate and look how popular he is. Himself, even said he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth avenue and people would STILL love him. I have no doubt of that either. No matter how hateful he is, people continue to love him. Hitler was loved too, by millions. There's more than enough hate to go around.

You miss the point that I've never said you're wrong about your observations about Katelyn Jenner... but you are responsible for your behavior towards others. Your behavior towards Katelyn is hurtful to her. You know it. You don't care if it hurts her. That just blows me away. Not so long ago, society held to one ideal that put people first... "If you can't say something nice about someone, say nothing."

I was raised in a very conservative church. I've forgotten more than most christians today seem to know. But, the one thing I do know is Jesus would not approve of all the hate... most of which today is done in HIS name!

I'm done. I've gotten as much out of this conversation as I could have hoped. Every once in a while I like to get a glimpse into the true psyche of people like you. I find it fascinating. Admittedly, I don't understand it, but it's fascinating nonetheless. Thanks for providing me that opportunity. I hope you gained at least as much from me.

Cheers!

 

[Orignal Earl]

What was that tolerate nonsense being spewed earlier?

If it ain't hurting anybody, ain't nothing wrong with it. Sure, it's rather odd and a bit loopy, but that's all it is.

Now, if these people were forming hordes based upon their belief of being an animal, committing mass rape and molestation...Aye, that'd be fucked.

But they ain't.

This cat girl is what your weak European culture has created
Sure she's no threat on her own, but I read they multiply 10 times as much as your average weak Euro
You can probably guess what happens when they become the majority in Europe

 

[buckshot24]

Another thing I find funny is you saying I've made it "personal." I've simply made some observations about you.

That is the exact definition of making it personal! I have nothing to do with whether Bruce is a man or not.

It's not like I've called you an asshole or anything, whether or not I may think it.

You've still try to make this about me.

True, I don't like you.

Why do you care so much about how I feel? You're being very hurtful in not affirming my feelings and publically challenging them in a searchable public forum.

I don't like anyone who values ideals over people.

I value truth over people's feelings. Bruce is a man and there is no getting around that. Living as if this isn't true is what is called a lie.

Ideals are not absolute, nor objective.

Is that ideal absolute or objective?

Bruce is a man, that is the truth, deal with it.

It's unlikely anyone in this thread hasn't been persecuted by someone else for no other reason than ideals.

When telling the truth is deemed persecution then I don't know where we're at anymore.

Oh yes, I have but you'd never guess why because it's so ridiculous. One has to look no further than the centuries conflict between various religion. Hell, even people who claim to worship the SAME god AND prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses, say the catholics are going to hell, the catholics say the protestants are, protestants are further divided into hundreds of other factions... each of which saying the others are all going to hell. Thousands of lives have been lost for that very thing. Maybe not quite so much killing there nowadays, but the underlying premise that my delusion is better than your delusion is predominant in nearly every religion. That's just one example of people putting ideals before people. It's clearly wrong, but people continue to do it... en mass.

First of all JW's don't believe in hell. Are you going to cry that I am being hateful for pointing out this error? Secondly, people justifying their actions via religion doesn't make the religion wrong. If I justify slapping a man in the face because he looked at me funny, which is a stupid reason to slap somebody, that doesn't mean he didn't look at me funny.

I have no doubt people love you. Trump is a great example of someone who incites hate and look how popular he is.

Now you just insult all my loved ones.

This is all justified because I tell the truth that Bruce is a man, not a woman.

Himself, even said he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth avenue and people would STILL love him. I have no doubt of that either. No matter how hateful he is, people continue to love him. Hitler was loved too, by millions. There's more than enough hate to go around.

Comparing me to Hitler? That's a first.

You miss the point that I've never said you're wrong about your observations about Katelyn Jenner... but you are responsible for your behavior towards others. Your behavior towards Katelyn is hurtful to her. You know it. You don't care if it hurts her. That just blows me away. Not so long ago, society held to one ideal that put people first... "If you can't say something nice about someone, say nothing."

I'm sorry that the fact that Bruce is a man hurts him. That isn't my fault.

I was raised in a very conservative church. I've forgotten more than most christians today seem to know. But, the one thing I do know is Jesus would not approve of all the hate... most of which today is done in HIS name!

You're absolutely right. Saying Bruce is a man isn't hateful.

I'm done.

You've been done a while now. You've compared me to Hitler, you've insinuated that people love me because I incite hate and they seem to be hateful people. The bottom line here is you do not embrace truth.

 

[chipwitch]

That is the exact definition of making it personal! I have nothing to do with whether Bruce is a man or not. You've still try to make this about me.
Why do you care so much about how I feel? You're being very hurtful in not affirming my feelings and publically challenging them in a searchable public forum.
I value truth over people's feelings. Bruce is a man and there is no getting around that. Living as if this isn't true is what is called a lie. Is that ideal absolute or objective?

Bruce is a man, that is the truth, deal with it.
When telling the truth is deemed persecution then I don't know where we're at anymore.

First of all JW's don't believe in hell. Are you going to cry that I am being hateful for pointing out this error? Secondly, people justifying their actions via religion doesn't make the religion wrong. If I justify slapping a man in the face because he looked at me funny, which is a stupid reason to slap somebody, that doesn't mean he didn't look at me funny.
Now you just insult all my loved ones.

This is all justified because I tell the truth that Bruce is a man, not a woman.

Comparing me to Hitler? That's a first.
I'm sorry that the fact that Bruce is a man hurts him. That isn't my fault.
You're absolutely right. Saying Bruce is a man isn't hateful.

You've been done a while now. You've compared me to Hitler, you've insinuated that people love me because I incite hate and they seem to be hateful people. The bottom line here is you do not embrace truth.

I apologize if you're feeling hurt by anything I've said. The truth is I've actually been extremely considerate of you. You have no idea! I like reasoned debate. Were you to not employ so many fallacious arguments I'd be delighted in continuing a discussion.

For the record, I did NOT compare you to Hitler. You claimed people love you, as evidence that you are a good, nice person. I merely pointed out that one doesn't have to be "nice" in order to be loved. Hitler was merely an extreme example of the most vile and hateful person known to mankind. If he could still be loved, well, then those who hate more modestly certainly can. If you perceived something else in there, then perhaps a little introspection is in order? From what you've demonstrated here, you see your perception equal to truth, infallible, perfect. Anyone who perceives anything different than your perception is... delusional. Time and again, that's what you've stated. That is the truth.


<edited for clarity>

 

[buckshot24]

I apologize if you're feeling hurt by anything I've said.

I was mocking your hypocrisy, I'm not hurt.

For the record, I did NOT compare you to Hitler. You claimed people love you, as evidence that you are a good, nice person. I merely pointed out that one doesn't have to be "nice" in order to be loved. Hitler was merely an extreme example of the most vile and hateful person known to mankind. If he could still be loved, well, then those who hate more modestly certainly can. If you perceived something else in there, then perhaps a little introspection is in order?

That argument goes both ways. People not liking me isn't indicative of me being a bad person either.

From what you've demonstrated here, you see your perception equal to truth, infallible, perfect.

It isn't MY perception that tells us Bruce is a man. This is the reality of the matter. If you want to jump down the rabbit hole and live in fantasy land you go right ahead.

Anyone who perceives anything different than your perception is... delusional.

Bruce is a man, that isn't my perception. I'm not being mean when I say it. We don't get to create our own personal realities. If I thought I was a bird I'm going to go splat if I jump off of a building. That isn't mean, that is reality.

 

[MongGrel]

I apologize if you're feeling hurt by anything I've said. The truth is I've actually been extremely considerate of you. You have no idea! I like reasoned debate. Were you to not employ so many fallacious arguments I'd be delighted in continuing a discussion.

For the record, I did NOT compare you to Hitler. You claimed people love you, as evidence that you are a good, nice person. I merely pointed out that one doesn't have to be "nice" in order to be loved. Hitler was merely an extreme example of the most vile and hateful person known to mankind. If he could still be loved, well, then those who hate more modestly certainly can. If you perceived something else in there, then perhaps a little introspection is in order? From what you've demonstrated here, you see your perception equal to truth, infallible, perfect. Anyone who perceives anything different than your perception is... delusional. Time and again, that's what you've stated. That is the truth.


<edited for clarity>

Just a FYI, do not engage buckshot24 in a conversation if you want anything even vaguely approaching a reasonable debate.

 

[chipwitch]

Just a FYI, do not engage buckshot24 in a conversation if you want anything even vaguely approaching a reasonable debate.

I appreciate the advice. At this point, it was unnecessary though. I approach people with optimism and good will... generally it leads me to disappointment. I generally can slip in and out of a dozen different perspectives in the span of a breath. I believe it's what makes it possible to empathize with others... not just clones/lemmings/automatons of oneself. I am constantly amazed how many people get but one perspective (that apparently must last them a lifetime) and refuse to acknowledge other people have (at least) one too. Might as well be debating a rock... or a pine tree. LOL

Love the FSM, btw.

 

[waggy]

Just a FYI, do not engage buckshot24 in a conversation if you want anything even vaguely approaching a reasonable debate.

I don't feel he is 100% correct in his argument but he has been reasonable. While you may or may not agree with him is not a bases for being reasonable.


i think both him and chipwatch are insane for continuing the argument though. really it should have ended with "I feel that a he is man since he still has his boy parts" and "well i think since he condsiders himself a her then we should agree with that" end of argument. you guys don't have to agree.

 

[chipwitch]

I don't feel he is 100% correct in his argument but he has been reasonable. While you may or may not agree with him is not a bases for being reasonable.


i think both him and chipwatch are insane for continuing the argument though. really it should have ended with "I feel that a he is man since he still has his boy parts" and "well i think since he condsiders himself a her then we should agree with that" end of argument. you guys don't have to agree.

You pretty much have the right of it. Pretty much. The thing is, I did my part since I said Katelyn would most likely agree that she is not physically a woman. I was merely hoping to get buckshot to see that perhaps, just maybe there's something deeper than flesh. That's all. If one can acknowledge that then perhaps maybe one wouldn't be so incendiary in words and tone directed toward someone that they KNOW will cause great pain to that person. People can reason inflicting pain on others. It doesn't make it right.

 

[chipwitch]

First of all JW's don't believe in hell.

Thanks for reminding me of that. I had forgotten it completely. They also only believe 144,000 people are going to live in paradise. Most (all I've met) are humble enough (if not falsely) to assume they personally WON'T be one of them. They only wish to make the world a better place in which their children can live. It's actually one of the most beautiful and noble beliefs in all religion.

So, I'm just curious... One day, when one of your children, parent, spouse... someone you love, reveals they're gay, or transgendered, or trans-"feline" or whatever... will you a) make their world miserable until they kill themselves, b) excommunicate them or c) beat the living shit out of anyone who is as insensitive to them as you are to Katelyn Jenner? If there's a d), I am truly interested in your opinion.

 

[buckshot24]

So, I'm just curious... One day, when one of your children, parent, spouse... someone you love, reveals they're gay, or transgendered, or trans-"feline" or whatever... will you a) make their world miserable until they kill themselves, b) excommunicate them or c) beat the living shit out of anyone who is as insensitive to them as you are to Katelyn Jenner? If there's a d), I am truly interested in your opinion.

If my daughter comes to me and says she was born in the wrong gender I'd tell her that she is female. Our feelings do not change reality. I would not affirm this feeling of hers.

I'm wondering here, do you think I deserve physical violence perpetrated against me because of what I've said about Bruce? Or that it is a valid response to what I've said?

 

[chipwitch]

I'm wondering here, do you think I deserve physical violence perpetrated against me because of what I've said about Bruce? Or that it is a valid response to what I've said?

Certainly NOT. Just because I indicated violence as part of a multiple choice question, doesn't mean I condone violence. I abhor violence. That doesn't mean that I think all people think like I do, though. Just trying to ascertain how you'd react. A lot of fathers I've known would choose c). I also, know some that would choose a) and b).

I'll put you in the a) category then.

 

[MrPickins]

I'm wondering here, do you think I deserve physical violence perpetrated against me because of what I've said about Bruce? Or that it is a valid response to what I've said?

Why do you keep using the name Bruce?

Completely aside from the trans-gender issue is the right of a person to dictate the name by which they will be known.

Whether you believe Caitlyn is a man or a woman, that is his/her legal name. I consider it highly disrespectful to continue to use a name that a person has chosen to rid themselves of.

Self determination and whatnot...