Born Again Christians

[Isla]

<< I pity you Isla; you joined a religion that tells you your interests and opinions are incorrect, and is able to do this only because it is more established than other religions. >>



Don't worry, mosdef... I was able to break free from that group. The nice thing is that I still have the basic faith I started out with, a simple faith that does not need to be impressed upon anyone else. Remember, faith and religion are not the same thing.

Moonbeam: You are always the voice of reason in the wilderness for me in these threads.

 

[Eug]

<< Remember when Micheal Jackson was cool? >>

Heheh... no.

















(And yes, I did live thru that hellish era, unless you're talking about when he was a little kid.)

 

[Total Refected Power]

Oh boy. Didn't mean to spawn this. But here are some extra thoughts:

1. If you believe, than you believe. I don't think a distinction is necessary for &quot;when&quot; you had an experience. I guess I don't get this &quot;born again&quot; concept. If you it prompts you to do good acts then enjoy.

2. I am a scientist still marvel at the complexity and beauty of life. It is simply amazing how mechanisms work at the molecular level. For me, this does not disprove the existence of God but merely supports it. It seems to be too perfect for chance.

 

[Athanasius]

I would surmise that the large number of seemingly provocative and inflammatory replies by both &quot;born-againers&quot; and &quot;non-born-againers&quot; demonstrates why relationships between the two are so difficult. The problem is that both your hyper-fundamentalist born-againer and your strict materialistic rationalist are trapped in excessively left brain linear thinking that is its own language barrier.

When one gets stuck in such thinking, one interprets the opponent's statements in the worst possible light while insisting that one's own statements be interpreted in the best possible light. Hence, one's own statements are &quot;accurate reflections of relaity&quot; while the opponent's statements are &quot;personal, pigheaded attacks.&quot;

No relationship can flower in such soil. I am a born-again Christian. Despite the &quot;language barrier&quot; between myself and people like Red Dawn and UG, I think we have managed to remain civil.

Still, to suggest that being &quot;born-again&quot; implies a particular deficiency in the individual who experiences it would obviously offend most born-againers. It doesn't offend me. I know I am weird Despite my weirdness, I think I have demonstrated many times here why theism in general is by no means irrational.

Consider the following from a previous thread. Look at the building blocks of this material universe that some limit themselves to:

Example 1: How can someone with a genuine case of Dissociative Identity Disorder have different brain wave patterns for each of their different personalities? Even in cases of extreme stress, a person's basic brain wave patterns do not change. But, if personality is ultimate nonlocal/non physical, then one person with multiple personalities could do what is, from a purely physical perspective, impossible. Hence, personality is greater than matter, even though we cannot scientifically prove personality unless we try to reduce it to a mere by product of the brain. Yet people with DID would tend to challenge such a reduction.

CONCLUSION: personality is seemingly greater than matter.


Example 2: According to our current understanding of physics (at least as best as I understand it), every region of space has different fields composed of different waves. When physicists calculate the minimum energy a wave can possess, they find that every cubic centimeter of space contains more energy than the total energy of matter in the known universe.

CONCLUSION: under current scientific paradigms, energy is seemingly greater than matter.


Example 3: Consider Bohm's experiment with plasma. Plasma is a gas containing a high density of electrons and positive ions. When in a plasma, electrons stop behaving like individuals and start behaving as part of a larger and connected whole. Although their individual movements appeared random, vast numbers of electrons were able to perform tasks that were surprisingly well organized. Like a living creature, the plasma regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall much like a living body encloses a foreign substance in a cyst. Bohm was so amazed by these qualties that he had the impression that the electron sea was alive. His experiments with the beavior of electrons in metals confirmed this &quot;communicative&quot; ability of &quot;mindless&quot; electrons.

CONCLUSION: Interconnected, mindful order is seemingly greater than individual randomness, though both exist.


If personality is greater than matter, and energy is greater than matter, and interconnected, mindful order is greater than individual randomness, then why is belief in a non-material, universal Mind/Logos so &quot;weak-minded&quot;? Would it be less offensive to you if I used more obviously scientific terminology and called it &quot;The Implicate Order behind all other implicate and explicit orders&quot;?

Is there something intrinsically irrational about presupposing a mind behind the universe? And, if so, since we are the highest life form that we can scientifically observe, is it so irrational to assume that in some respects our minds would have the ability or potential to &quot;connect&quot; with the Universal Mind? And if one did, even in the most &quot;seeing through a glass darkly&quot; kind of way, wouldn't that constitute a &quot;born again&quot; experience?

The &quot;arrogance&quot; in some claiming such an experience is only arrogance if one acts like one had it because of some innate superiority. But it is just as arrogant to take a position that anyone who has had a born-again experience is some type of hypocrite or fool.

 

[Noriaki]

I'm sorry..I didn't want to comment on this subject again, but this is going to damn far:

<< I mean that some are so blinded by science that they refuse to even acknowledge that which they can't see or touch. There are phenomena which science has yet to explain that are too quickly written off by these &quot;pure scientists&quot; as mumbo jumbo. >>

That is absolute bullsh*t. There may be fools that think like that. But there are alot of regligious fools that try to shove their beliefs down other peoples throats. And all of you &quot;good&quot; christians are trying to prove that not all are like that.
Well I am in a very strongly scientific discipline, and I would like to point out that any *GOOD* scientist considers himself to be in the business of proving old theories wrong and/or trying to explain things that have not yet been explained. Scientists attempt to refine our understanding of how the planet (and the universe at whole) has evolved over the millenia it has existed. If we don't understand something, we attempt to explain it. That's what scientists do.
To claim that all scientists pass off what they don't understand as &quot;mumbo jumbo&quot; as you so elegantly put it is crap, sure there are some, but not all. That's as bad as us saying &quot;all christians are bible thumping idiots that try to force their belifs down everyone's throats,&quot; well is that true?
Things that 200 years ago seemed like magic have since been explained with Math, Physics, Chemistry and/or whatever other science you like. And they are working on explaining more things we don't understand. Maybe to you those explanations are ridiculous becuase everyone that's intelligent knows &quot;God did it&quot;, well viewpoints like that are why christians piss so many people off.
I'm sure there are christians that think like that, and christians that understand different people have different beliefs, does being a christian put you in a single big bin? I don't think so, and I doubt you do, so why does being a scientist put me in a single bin?

Anyways, I'll thank you kindly not to make general statements about scientists.


Edit: Just a sidenote, I can't stand people that don't think for themselves, to those of you who are religious but choose to examine the beliefs and choose them for yourself instead taking the whole pacakge and saying these are my belifs tied up in a nice little bundle you can read them out of a book too. GOOD FOR YOU GUYS!!!! That's the way it should be. You are free to believe in what you want, you believe in god fine and well, that doesn't mean you have to agree with every single point that someone else who believes in go thinks. Believe it or not, the people that wrote the bible were humans as well and it's open to their interpretation of events, their faith and beliefs and hell their mood at the time. They happened to live at the same time and meet your God, so they have been extra blessed, they are still humans.

And to those of you who think they (or yourselves) are better than others humans because they met Him and believed, well you can shove it right up your holy hole.

 

[BoberFett]

But Noriaki, if you weren't listening, people like UGH and Red Dawn do say that

<< &quot;all christians are bible thumping idiots that try to force their belifs down everyone's throats,&quot; >>

Obviously not all scientists are so closed minded, and neither are all Christians. It's an unfortunate truth that the far ends of the spectrum in any argument are usually the most vocal. It gives both sides a bad and undeserved reputation.

<< Anyways, I'll thank you kindly not to make general statements about scientists. >>

Likewise about Christians.

 

[bluemax]

I'm going to save my breath on this one, although I will say one thing.
Of all the religions on earth, why are Christians tho most prosecuted?

Before spitting out all the &quot;easy&quot; answers of the ones you see on the street corner, or the JW's that come knocking at your door...
Why do so many people get flared up and downright ANGRY at the mere mention of God, or especially, Jesus?

If I said I was a buddhist monk, or Islamic, or whatever- you probably wouldn't think much of it. Say I follow Jesus, the Son of God, and you get all upset, thinking &quot;what a lunatic&quot;.

If that's the automatic reaction, and we humans are evil by nature...
Where do you think that thought really comes from, eh?

I think I'll leave it at that. G'bye!

 

Good morning, Vietnam.

UG,

An example of a &quot;public-personal&quot; relationship is a marraige. The marraige is a public display of commitment regarding a personal, intimate relationship.

In the same way, Christians have a public demonstration of a private relationship with God. They aren't seeking approval from man.

 

[BoberFett]

<< I do know that a few revel in thinking of themselves as martyrs and use that as an excuse to be annoying pests. >>

You're lucky it's only the Christians harassing you. If it were a fundamental muslim, they wouldn't pester you, they'd just plant a car bomb in front of your house.


Hey, I'm kidding damnit!

 

[yata]

All the members here in religious quandary, for you I pray.

Maybe.

 

[mosdef]

Isla, I am happy for you! I think it's a beautiful thing for a person to decide their beliefs and stick with them. They don't have to be based on science, reasoning, or knowledge, but they should be spawned internally. I can't stand religions which try to control and overtake, causing people to fight between what they are told is right and what they believe is right. In short, people should always listen to their inner voices when it comes to opinions and beliefs unless there is new information that has been explicitly proven to be true.

-mosdef

 

[VisionsUCI]

mosdef, that sounds really nice and pc, but what happens when beliefs are contrary to what is socially acceptable? beliefs that are spawned internally are subjective, and your line of argument is the type that could be used in defense of heinous &quot;moral&quot; crimes such as murder. so, would it be okay to cling to whatever beliefs you have, as long as they don't infringe on other people..? even that sounds too subjective. i know that there is an ultimate moral standard out there, whether people choose to accept it or not.

 

[luv2chill]

I find it interesting that no one has responded to Athanasius' comments in this thread, which I found to be a breath of fresh air.

Human beings have the unfortunate tendency to be so convinced that they alone have the right idea that they vehemently defend that idea and furthermore close themselves off to the possibility of any refinement in or (gasp!) reversal of their position. Humans don't like to be wrong--that's for sure.

Not that I don't espouse having opinions and standing up for them... but a little tolerance and open-mindedness among people would really go a long way to making life here better for everyone.

I'll again pass on this link because I've found its essays to be very insightful... and not the least bit judgemental.

http://www.religioustolerance.org

l2c

 

[mosdef]

I was fully thinking of that, but I didn't know how to word it. I meant beliefs, not actions. Also, I was focusing more on Isla's case, where she ridiculously had to destroy her CDs because they didn't comply with another's opinions.

-mosdef

 

[Isla]

mosdef...

Can you believe I was ever that STUPID????

Heh heh, I look back on those days and wonder what was I thinking?

OK, I wasn't thinking. Mr Isla has a cute butt.

 

[jhu]

luv2chill, good site. go humanists!

 

[Russ]

Athanasius,

Thank you for your insights, but in the future, can you please arrive sooner? I had to wade though a huge pile of belligerent, bigoted crap to get to the only decent post in this thread.

Russ, NCNE
Of WEAK mind, since I happen to be a Christian.

 

[Russ]

<< Looking for a reason to be offended will definitely blind you to what is trying to be said by some of us. >>



I didn't have to look very hard. I'll tell you what: I'll pit my &quot;weak&quot; mind (your assumption about anyone who believes in God) against yours, or any other Christian hating bigot who feels like taking me on.

Russ, NCNE

 

[wviperw]

man, you guys generalize way too much about Christians. But you have good reason to. So many people today call themselves a &quot;christian&quot;, and then don't live it. I hate that, and I know I do it too sometimes.

You guys are wondering why Christians won't leave you alone? If they are doing it for the real reason, then they don't want to see you go to hell. They want you to praise God (the reason why were here).

But you say &quot;there is no heaven/hell&quot;. Then what are your beliefs? I don't get how you CAN'T know about God. You say your looking for truth. Well, you and I both know that we aren't going to be 100% sure that we have found it. Do you really think that your going to all of a sudden find the &quot;secret&quot; answer to the universe, while men have been looking for it for thousands of years? Since Though it makes sense for me to want to use logic to figure it out, I know that it isn't possible. But I take the things I do know (the Bible, universe,...) and mix it with a little FAITH, stir well, and there is God. No, it's not some formula though.

Red Dawn, in a sense all non-christians do hate God. Satan instills this hate, and puts it toward Christians. You don't actually hate the Christian so much as the ideas that he is trying to portray. And I know you say that &quot;we can have our beliefs and you can have yours&quot;, but that isn't the way it works. How can EVERYBODY have different beliefs but all be right?

Thanks

 

[Russ]

<< Also, please point out to me where I assumed that all who were Christian were of weak mind? >>



How many quotes would you like? I could give you pages, but here's the most recent:



<< The truth is that you are just a weak individual who refuses to open his eyes to reality that this Jesus Crap is just a bunch of Hocus Pocus. >>



Now, I know that you claim that this is directed at only one person. But, that copout won't work. The premise is that he's weak because of his faith in God. As you attack him, you attack all Christians, including me.



<< So you are saying that you cannot see past the rhetoric born of frustration >>



Rhetoric? Is that your code word for &quot;I'll attack and level whatever slurs I feel like, and justify it because I was frustrated&quot;? In every one of these threads you are one of the first in line to start slinging insults and making ignorant, unilateral statements about Christians as a whole based on the actions of a very tiny minority. This is BIGOTRY in every sense of the word.

Perhaps you sincerely do not believe that you are bigoted. Your words and actions demonstrate otherwise.

You are not capable of a rational discussion of Christianity without resorting to these attacks. CLEARLY, something scares the hell out of you or you wouldn't react with the level of venom that you do IN EVERY THREAD. ALL anger is fear-based and the level of anger you demonstrate makes it painfully obvious that you are terrified of something.

I'm tired of people like you, who find it perfectly acceptable to assault my beliefs without fear of repercussion. You may try to rationalize the insults and innuendo in any way you see fit. This does not alter the impact and intent of your mindless, groundless, constant and vitriolic denunciations of my Faith.

There is one premise in the Bible that I do not adhere to. When I am attacked, I don?t turn the other cheek. I will respond in kind to anyone who assumes it is acceptable to attack Christians simply because they have chosen a different belief system than you.

Russ, NCNE

 

[wviperw]

<< There is one premise in the Bible that I do not adhere to. When I am attacked, I don?t turn the other cheek >>



Wait a minute, I thought we were on the same page here Russ. Unless I misunderstood you, didn't you just say you don't follow the whole Bible? I know I don't follow the whole Bible all the time, but I try to ask for forgiveness when I don't.

And another thing, I am a Christian. But looking at this discussion from I guess you could call it an &quot;anti-christian&quot;, I see that we are arguing a bit to much. It just looks like were arguing for the sake of arguing now. I just encourage the Christians to stay strong and dont ruin your testimony because you get mad at someone or something. Sorry if I have done that.

PFY

 

[mosdef]

<< But you say &quot;there is no heaven/hell&quot;. Then what are your beliefs? I don't get how you CAN'T know about God. You say your looking for truth. Well, you and I both know that we aren't going to be 100% sure that we have found it. Do you really think that your going to all of a sudden find the &quot;secret&quot; answer to the universe, while men have been looking for it for thousands of years? Since Though it makes sense for me to want to use logic to figure it out, I know that it isn't possible. But I take the things I do know (the Bible, universe,...) and mix it with a little FAITH, stir well, and there is God. No, it's not some formula though. >>



wviperw - I guess that's the difference between me and you. You have stopped looking for the answer because you have gotten &quot;close enough&quot;, while I have not even scratched the surface of the question of a supreme being. I think that the fact that you have already decided is a travesty. I am in fact agnostic, because I simply don't know and I will sooner live with the fact that I may never know rather than accept a religion which has proven absolutely none if its beliefs in my opinion. If you were born Hindu you would be telling me how I could not see the many Hindu Gods, it makes perfect sense, etc. How come you don't believe I am God, how do you know this beautiful world isn't my creation?

Now bow down to me.

-mosdef

 

[Russ]

wviperw,

You may call me a bad Christian for doing so, but I will defend those of Faith against attack, just as I would defend anyone who had been assaulted the way Christians have been at this forum.

I do not, and never have, offered testimony at this BBS. This is a private matter, reserved for real life, and this is not the venue for it. But, I have always - and will continue to do so - come to the defense of those who must suffer the barrage of insults each time they have the courage to admit that they are Born Again.

Russ, NCNE

 

[wviperw]

I haven't stopped looking, I have just begun. Everybody, when they are born into the world they take the beliefs of the people around them (parents). That is what I have done. But eventually there comes a point when a person really starts wondering what their beliefs are. And if there isn't a point like that for the person, then that is very sad. Only in the last few years have I begun to not just be a &quot;baby fed&quot; Christian. Not someone who takes what they hear.

And have you ever noticed how Christians are more persecuted then any other religious people? I think that is because Satan knows that they are the ones that know the truth, and he wants to get them away from it. Also, it may be from just my point of view, but it seems that Christianity is the only religion that's beliefs are all true and have no REAL contradictories. Though there may be some apparent contradictories they are always proven false. In other religions I don't think they can do this, though it might look like it.

 

[mosdef]

<< But, I have always - and will continue to do so - come to the defense of those who must suffer the barrage of insults each time they have the courage to admit that they are Born Again. >>



Russ - I guess this is just bringing in more of my opinions, but I think that in general - considering the overwhelming popularity of Christianity in this country - Born Againers are in fact respected. I have far more respect for Born Againers than for people who seem to have no reasoning for their choice of religion other than that they were born into that religion. So in conjunction with this, I also do not think it is very courageous to admit this. For example, it would be far more courageous to admit belief in one of the many less represented religions, or a cult even.

-mosdef