Borderlands patch WARNING - corrupts saves!

[DaveSimmons]

I just jump over them, or around them, sprint away, turn and reengage. The bloodwing is nice at higher levels, but never really turns the tables. But with a sniper rifle doing over 400 dmg at level 32 I can usually take out even big mobs before they get to me.

I'm playing a hunter now for the challenge, I just reached level 19. I've been putting all the points into the bloodwing tree.

It sounds like it might work better to give up on it, and put the points into the sniper tree instead?

The one thing I like about the bloodwing tree is being able to use it as a minor heal so I don't need to carry a bunch of health packs or use a healing shield.

The Scorpio Turret isn't too bad, but you have to be very careful where you place it or else it could become incredibly ineffective. The only area where I tend to have trouble on my characters is in the arena fights when I don't out-level them.

I recall having some trouble on my Hunter when I was doing the Circle of Death at level 38 and fighting two level 40 Badass Bruisers at once. The biggest problem that I've seen is that slow firing weapons have another drawback... they don't "delay" enemy attacks. ...

Yeah, I was disappointed trying to use a revolver when mobbed. You get an attack pause with a hit, but a rifle or revolver does that much less than a SMG.

It actually worked well against Sledge though, I lucked out and got a good x2 caustic revolver with over 120 damage from a vending machine just before starting the mine. That and a static SMG + static bloddwing damage to take down his shields took care of him.

Thanks for the shield info -- I've just been winging it (heh) instead of reading up on the theory behind shields and weapons.

 

[Aikouka]

I just jump over them, or around them, sprint away, turn and reengage. The bloodwing is nice at higher levels, but never really turns the tables. But with a sniper rifle doing over 400 dmg at level 32 I can usually take out even big mobs before they get to me.

Bloodwing also works well against certain creatures like Skagzilla. Skagzilla is armored all around and is highly resilient to elemental effects. Bloodwing seems to ignore armor, but you would have to remove the elemental effect before you use it.

I'm playing a hunter now for the challenge, I just reached level 19. I've been putting all the points into the bloodwing tree.

It sounds like it might work better to give up on it, and put the points into the sniper tree instead?

I think I put a few points into the Sniper (left) tree, and then transitioned over to the right one. I can't remember the trees too well, but usually I'll go up until I hit a "clutch talent" (or at least one that sounds good). The right tree has a lot of good revolver talents though. If you can get a nice Defiler, the right tree will definitely be helpful. The only negative aspect is that it has two damage-oriented talents that enable on-kill, which tends to make them somewhat useless during some boss fights.

Yeah, I was disappointed trying to use a revolver when mobbed. You get an attack pause with a hit, but a rifle or revolver does that much less than a SMG.

Revolvers aren't too bad, but it seems you really have to go for the 6-bullet variants versus the 2-bullet ones, which deal more damage per bullet, but require significantly more reloads. Eventually, the Hunter ends up with really fast reload times (the middle tree has a +25% reload speed talent), which makes 2-bullet guns a bit more bearable.

 

[Markbnj]

It sounds like it might work better to give up on it, and put the points into the sniper tree instead?

My first play-through, so I can't really compare other styles. The two main weapons I have relied on as a hunter are the sniper rifle, and a good combat rifle. My current sniper rifle packs a hell of a wallop (I have 4/5 in accuracy, sniper damage, and crit damage), and can drop all the normal-tier bandits in one shot if hit above the belt. Bruisers take two headshots. The "Badass" tier of mobs sometimes take 2-3 headshots. Fortunately the mobs in this game mostly plod around like arthritic mannequins so they're easy to headshoot.

In fact they so suck at maneuvering that I will sometimes keep using the sniper rifle even when two or three close in on me. For most close-in situations, though, fast-moving mobs like psychos, and all situations where a bunch of "pop-up" mobs appear, I rely on a good automatic rifle. My current does about 96 dmg, with good accuracy and fire rate, and a 12 round mag. I find that it just tears stuff up, and I've put some points into reload speed.

I occasionally use a rocket launcher but mostly I wonder why I carry it around. It's useful on turrets. Other than that, when Rakhs attack I whip out a purple SMG that fires explosive rounds. I carry 900 rounds and basically this thing makes red Rakh mist everywhere I point it .

Bloodwing also works well against certain creatures like Skagzilla. Skagzilla is armored all around and is highly resilient to elemental effects. Bloodwing seems to ignore armor, but you would have to remove the elemental effect before you use it.

I'm ashamed to say (but not really) that I killed both Skagzilla and Mad Mel from outside the rings.

 

[SMOGZINN]

My first play-through, so I can't really compare other styles. The two main weapons I have relied on as a hunter are the sniper rifle, and a good combat rifle. My current sniper rifle packs a hell of a wallop (I have 4/5 in accuracy, sniper damage, and crit damage), and can drop all the normal-tier bandits in one shot if hit above the belt. Bruisers take two headshots. The "Badass" tier of mobs sometimes take 2-3 headshots. Fortunately the mobs in this game mostly plod around like arthritic mannequins so they're easy to headshoot.

Personally, I think that the hunter is all about the pistols. The sniper rifles are nice, but not really needed. What you need is a high RoF repeater and a good scoped high damage revolver, neither of these should have elemental damage. After that look for a good 6 shot revolver with acid damage, and perhaps fill out with a ammo regen revolver and/or a acid repeater.

With that load out and focus in the gunslinger tree you should be able to decimate nearly anything.

 

[etrigan420]

Personally, I think that the hunter is all about the pistols. The sniper rifles are nice, but not really needed. What you need is a high RoF repeater and a good scoped high damage revolver, neither of these should have elemental damage. After that look for a good 6 shot revolver with acid damage, and perhaps fill out with a ammo regen revolver and/or a acid repeater.

With that load out and focus in the gunslinger tree you should be able to decimate nearly anything.

Yup. I just hit level 50 with my hunter and he carries 3 revolvers and a sniper rifle, my favorite being a Vitriolic Justice that does 219 base with x3 corrosive. I'll just one shot most enemies and move on to the next. If it doesn't instantly kill them the corrosive damage usually does the trick

 

[Aikouka]

Here's the article on shields:

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Shield

It includes pretty pictures to make identifying shields much easier!

I have 4/5 in accuracy

One weird thing about Borderlands is how accuracy probably doesn't do what you expect it to do. This article will explain it better than I can: http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Accuracy

I'm ashamed to say (but not really) that I killed both Skagzilla and Mad Mel from outside the rings.

I think I've always killed Mad Mel that way too. :$ I usually kill Skagzilla normally though.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

I kill skagzilla with berserker punches only, wusses

 

[dust]

Skagzilla likes it in the mouth!

 

[DaveSimmons]

Sigh. I've yet to kill Mad Mel without dying. Siren (playthrough 1 & 2), soldier, and now hunter. This time I manged to take out 3 of the outriders and a few psychos first.

Then, as always, I took potshots from outside the arena until they were all dead.

Fear my combat driving skills -- NOT!


On the bright side, it looks patch 1.42 might have tweaked Marley and Moe a little to separate them from each other. This time I took them out pretty easily thanks to my scoped caustic revolver and shock bloodwing.

 

[dust]

Sigh. I've yet to kill Mad Mel without dying. Siren (playthrough 1 & 2), soldier, and now hunter. This time I manged to take out 3 of the outriders and a few psychos first.

Then, as always, I took potshots from outside the arena until they were all dead.

Fear my combat driving skills -- NOT!


On the bright side, it looks patch 1.42 might have tweaked Marley and Moe a little to separate them from each other. This time I took them out pretty easily thanks to my scoped caustic revolver and shock bloodwing.

It's easier during the second playthrough, if you have some good incendiary sniper/pistol, just use the car for cover and allow it to regenerate some shield. Stay focused on Mad Mel, use the others for second wind mainly.

Regarding Moe, you can pretty much lure him to the nearby encampment of freaks, let him have his way with them, he'll be nearly dead by the time he finishes them all. Marley is best convinced from above if you can find a spot.

 

[Elcs]

I'm playing an irregular co-op match with a friend, him as a Hunter and me as a Soldier.

He's consistently outdamaging me, mainly because I could not hit the broadside of a barn door with my Combat Rifles (accurate scoped type and machine gun type) whilst he just snipes away like a madman.

Any tips on picking the right weapon as a Soldier? In this coop round, we're only about 13 due to the effects of motion sickness (Borderlands shitty FoV control) limiting our playtime severely.

 

[Markbnj]

On the bright side, it looks patch 1.42 might have tweaked Marley and Moe a little to separate them from each other. This time I took them out pretty easily thanks to my scoped caustic revolver and shock bloodwing.

Marley and Moe were even easier than Mel and Skagzilla. There's a tall rock near where they spawn. You jump on top and they roam around the bottom of it and roar at you while you plink away until they stop moving .

 

[n7]

On the bright side, it looks patch 1.42 might have tweaked Marley and Moe a little to separate them from each other. This time I took them out pretty easily thanks to my scoped caustic revolver and shock bloodwing.

Oh?

I very much doubt they did anything along those lines in this patch as this patch has nothing to do with gameplay.

More likely you had better weaps or were more over-leveled, etc.

 

[n7]

I'm playing an irregular co-op match with a friend, him as a Hunter and me as a Soldier.

He's consistently outdamaging me, mainly because I could not hit the broadside of a barn door with my Combat Rifles (accurate scoped type and machine gun type) whilst he just snipes away like a madman.

Any tips on picking the right weapon as a Soldier? In this coop round, we're only about 13 due to the effects of motion sickness (Borderlands shitty FoV control) limiting our playtime severely.

You can change FoV, turn off motion blur, all that crap, etc.
It does change when you are running vs. walking, but you can at least increase it so the base FOV when walking is as high as you want. Just keep in mind it gets a bit warpy when running if you have it too high when walking.
I use 90 for 16:10 display.

Most tweaks listed here:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=79043
Borderlands Config Tool
This program does many tweaks for you so don't have to go into your .ini


Some handy bindings to add to your willowinput.ini (please back it up beforehand in case):

Bindings=(Name="[b]forward movement key[/b]",Command="MoveForward | Axis aGas Speed=+1.0 | [b]FOV 90[/b]",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
changes FOV

Bindings=(Name="[b]setwhateverkey[/b]",Command="dbm_ToggleShowDebug",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
Allows you to toggle on debug code for weapons, shows you their parts, info, etc

Bindings=Name="[b]setwhateverkey[/b]",Command="showhud",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
toggle HUD on or off

 

[Elcs]

You can change FoV, turn off motion blur, all that crap, etc.
It does change when you are running vs. walking, but you can at least increase it so the base FOV when walking is as high as you want. Just keep in mind it gets a bit warpy when running if you have it too high when walking.
I use 90 for 16:10 display.

Most tweaks listed here:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=79043
Borderlands Config Tool
This program does many tweaks for you so don't have to go into your .ini


Some handy bindings to add to your willowinput.ini (please back it up beforehand in case):

Bindings=(Name="[B]forward movement key[/B]",Command="MoveForward | Axis aGas Speed=+1.0 | [B]FOV 90[/B]",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
changes FOV

Bindings=(Name="[B]setwhateverkey[/B]",Command="dbm_ToggleShowDebug",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
Allows you to toggle on debug code for weapons, shows you their parts, info, etc

Bindings=Name="[B]setwhateverkey[/B]",Command="showhud",Control=False,Shift=False,Alt=False,LeftTrigger=False,RightTrigger=False,bIgnoreCtrl=False,bIgnoreShift=False,bIgnoreAlt=False)

^
toggle HUD on or off

Thanks. Already applied them correctly for my 16:9 display but the lag between switching and the bounce in-out effect that they produce (even when not actually switching FoV's) is almost as bad.

Borderlands 2 needs a permanent FoV fix because it's ridiculous right now.

Adding in the debug one now to see what extra goodies it shows up.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I'm playing an irregular co-op match with a friend, him as a Hunter and me as a Soldier.

He's consistently outdamaging me, mainly because I could not hit the broadside of a barn door with my Combat Rifles (accurate scoped type and machine gun type) whilst he just snipes away like a madman.

Any tips on picking the right weapon as a Soldier? In this coop round, we're only about 13 due to the effects of motion sickness (Borderlands shitty FoV control) limiting our playtime severely.

Unfortunately combat rifles pretty much just suck, their accuracy vs damage is just not high enough. If you are playing co-op with a hunter that is using sniper rifles then get yourself a good Glorious Havoc and get in close, you should mow them down pretty quick, letting him pick off anything that wants to keep it's distance from you. Or you could get a scoped SMG and fight at medium range.

 

[Aikouka]

Unfortunately combat rifles pretty much just suck, their accuracy vs damage is just not high enough. If you are playing co-op with a hunter that is using sniper rifles then get yourself a good Glorious Havoc and get in close, you should mow them down pretty quick, letting him pick off anything that wants to keep it's distance from you. Or you could get a scoped SMG and fight at medium range.

I think it's not that all combat rifles are bad, but that it's considerably harder to find a good combat rifle. The biggest problem is that you may find a weapon that looks good on paper, but then you realize quickly that it only has a 3-round burst (there is one combat rifle with a 5-round). Even with a decent rate of fire, the pause in between volleys effectively reduces the DPS below that of comparable SMGs.

You mentioned the Glorious Havoc, which is a fully-automatic combat rifle, but it has one huge flaw... poor accuracy (typically around 70%). SMGs don't require you to sacrifice accuracy just for fully-automatic, and if you do sacrifice accuracy, you get an incredibly powerful SMG (Desert/Double Anarchy) that blows any normal combat rifle out of the water.

I did use combat rifles on my Soldier, but I focused on high accuracy rifles (94% or so). I had a lot of luck with The Destroyer, which can unload the entire clip while zoomed (similar to that one sniper rifle ... The Invader I think).

Combat rifles really just need a DPS boost across the board to become worthwhile. The boost in damage would make up for being semi-automatic or the loss in accuracy from being fully-automatic. There also need to be some good high-end combat rifles. The Destroyer that I mentioned is decent, but even with it, I was having problems in Knoxx.

 

[Elcs]

I think it's not that all combat rifles are bad, but that it's considerably harder to find a good combat rifle. The biggest problem is that you may find a weapon that looks good on paper, but then you realize quickly that it only has a 3-round burst (there is one combat rifle with a 5-round). Even with a decent rate of fire, the pause in between volleys effectively reduces the DPS below that of comparable SMGs.

You mentioned the Glorious Havoc, which is a fully-automatic combat rifle, but it has one huge flaw... poor accuracy (typically around 70%). SMGs don't require you to sacrifice accuracy just for fully-automatic, and if you do sacrifice accuracy, you get an incredibly powerful SMG (Desert/Double Anarchy) that blows any normal combat rifle out of the water.

I did use combat rifles on my Soldier, but I focused on high accuracy rifles (94% or so). I had a lot of luck with The Destroyer, which can unload the entire clip while zoomed (similar to that one sniper rifle ... The Invader I think).

Combat rifles really just need a DPS boost across the board to become worthwhile. The boost in damage would make up for being semi-automatic or the loss in accuracy from being fully-automatic. There also need to be some good high-end combat rifles. The Destroyer that I mentioned is decent, but even with it, I was having problems in Knoxx.

I played through all of Playthrough 1 inc DLC's using a mix of Combat Rifles at distance then Shotguns up close. Even with a 'high accuracy' Combat Rifle (i'm talking 93%+), they're just relatively inaccurate at medium distances even with controlled player bursts, as a lot of combat rifles can use single fire.

The times I used SMG's, I personally found their accuracy to be even more pants than the combat rifle though the damage was excellent if I scored a long line of hits.

So the suggestion is... even as a Soldier, forgo the Combat Rifle and use SMG's?

 

[Aikouka]

I played through all of Playthrough 1 inc DLC's using a mix of Combat Rifles at distance then Shotguns up close. Even with a 'high accuracy' Combat Rifle (i'm talking 93%+), they're just relatively inaccurate at medium distances even with controlled player bursts, as a lot of combat rifles can use single fire.

How accurate are you expecting them to be? I mean, 93% in Borderlands means your bullet can end up +/- 7 degrees from where your cross hairs are currently pointing. Personally, I attack from a distance a lot with 91-96% accuracy SMGs on my Siren, and I've done so with combat rifles on my Soldier. Now, when I'm saying "from a distance", I'm not talking sniper rifle distances.

Most mobs don't seem to survive too long anyway.

The times I used SMG's, I personally found their accuracy to be even more pants than the combat rifle though the damage was excellent if I scored a long line of hits.

It may depend on the SMG itself, but I've had great luck with 91-94% accuracy SMGs. The Desert/Double Anarchy has relatively low accuracy (~30%), but is very powerful in close to mid range because it fires 4 bullets at once (so you almost always crit with at least 1).

Most of my high accuracy SMGs are actually elemental weapons.

I'm also very picky about rate of fire. Zin and I had some long discussions on RoF, and the main point I would always mention is to try and never settle for something below 10. I believe SMGs typically range from 6-12 RoF, and I'd highly recommend 12 given the almost linear increase in DPS. I did similar math when I was trying to find out whether or not the Siren's Quicksilver (+ bullet damage) or High Velocity (+ rate of fire) talent was better, and I'm pretty certain that High Velocity came out on top by a decent margin.

Unfortunately, I think I threw away the piece of paper with all the formulas on it.

So the suggestion is... even as a Soldier, forgo the Combat Rifle and use SMG's?

Honestly, as long as you have a Support Gunner class mod, you can use almost any weapon type you want. The SG mod provides ammo regen (for your team) for any weapon type. I carry one of those and a Rifleman mod on me at all times.

I'd have to do some math, but I'm pretty sure that a semi-automatic combat rifle's DPS will almost always be lower than a SMG providing they have the same rate of fire and damage-per-bullet.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I think it's not that all combat rifles are bad, but that it's considerably harder to find a good combat rifle. The biggest problem is that you may find a weapon that looks good on paper, but then you realize quickly that it only has a 3-round burst (there is one combat rifle with a 5-round). Even with a decent rate of fire, the pause in between volleys effectively reduces the DPS below that of comparable SMGs.

You mentioned the Glorious Havoc, which is a fully-automatic combat rifle, but it has one huge flaw... poor accuracy (typically around 70%). SMGs don't require you to sacrifice accuracy just for fully-automatic, and if you do sacrifice accuracy, you get an incredibly powerful SMG (Desert/Double Anarchy) that blows any normal combat rifle out of the water.

I did use combat rifles on my Soldier, but I focused on high accuracy rifles (94% or so). I had a lot of luck with The Destroyer, which can unload the entire clip while zoomed (similar to that one sniper rifle ... The Invader I think).

Combat rifles really just need a DPS boost across the board to become worthwhile. The boost in damage would make up for being semi-automatic or the loss in accuracy from being fully-automatic. There also need to be some good high-end combat rifles. The Destroyer that I mentioned is decent, but even with it, I was having problems in Knoxx.

So, what you are saying is that in comparison to basically every other weapon combat rifles are bad? (Okay, maybe not compared to shotguns. I've never found a shotgun I wanted to use.)
I point out the Glorious Havoc because they are probably the best of the combat rifles that you can expect to find with out farming. Yes, they have terrible accuracy, but accuracy doesn't matter much at close range. The OP asked for recommendations for using combat rifles, and as far as I can see on playthrough 1 that is the best you are going to do. Get a fast RoF fully automatic rifle and get right in their face. As for the Destroyer, it is a nice for a combat rifle, but if you are wanting to attack at range can do considerably better damage with a 4 RoF sniper rifle that is much easier to find.

So the suggestion is... even as a Soldier, forgo the Combat Rifle and use SMG's?

The game balances RoF, Accuracy, and Damage (with clip size and reload speed as minor modifiers). So high accuracy, high damage weapon, has to have a low RoF. Which is exactly what we see in the likes of the sniper rifle. Notice how as the RoF of a sniper rifle goes up the damage (in comparison to other weapons of it's level) goes down.

The problem with Combat rifles is that they did not seem to take into account the pause between busts when counting RoF for the guns, so a combat rifle that has it's accuracy and damage balanced against a listed RoF of 15 might only get a real RoF of 6, making it do less then half the actual damage of a SMG that is balanced for the same 15 RoF.

 

[Aikouka]

So, what you are saying is that in comparison to basically every other weapon combat rifles are bad? (Okay, maybe not compared to shotguns. I've never found a shotgun I wanted to use.)

I think I need to hire you as my official summarizer.

It's also good to include that prioritizing one weapon type will tend to make it better than others simply because it is gaining a significant portion of weapon experience compared to the others.

The OP asked for recommendations for using combat rifles, and as far as I can see on playthrough 1 that is the best you are going to do. Get a fast RoF fully automatic rifle and get right in their face.

I tried this when playing as Roland, and I found it much harder to do compared to Lilith. That's why I stuck to using high accuracy combat rifles (if I was going to use a CR at all). The Siren may have some powerful talents, but that's not everything... it's also talent positioning. The Siren's Controller (left) tree is mostly support-related talents, but they're all quite powerful and allow the Siren to be much more potent in close-range combat.

The main problem that I ran into on the Soldier is the positioning of the shield regeneration talent. I believe it's in the middle tree, which I didn't even go into until last. It's hard to sit there in the open at close range and not take damage, which means a shield regen talent is quite essential. Lilith's talent being in the Controller tree is just fantastic given the other good support talents. Roland's is not in such a good spot.

As for the Destroyer, it is a nice for a combat rifle, but if you are wanting to attack at range can do considerably better damage with a 4 RoF sniper rifle that is much easier to find.

A 4.0+ rate of fire sniper rifle? I think I've only ever seen one once. Most sniper rifles are between 0.6 and 2.0 rate of fire.

The game balances RoF, Accuracy, and Damage (with clip size and reload speed as minor modifiers). So high accuracy, high damage weapon, has to have a low RoF. Which is exactly what we see in the likes of the sniper rifle. Notice how as the RoF of a sniper rifle goes up the damage (in comparison to other weapons of it's level) goes down.

I think your example is a bit too specific. Certain weapon types have their own correlations, but there are generic relationships between weapon specs. For example, larger magazine size = longer reload time. In my experience (and using the weapon builder), this is true for every weapon type. For revolvers, smaller magazine size = more damage per bullet.

I've also had high damage, high accuracy and high RoF weapons. I've also seen weapons a lot like ones that I already have except they simply have a lower RoF with nothing else to boost the diminished stat.

Sometimes add-ons will greatly affect certain stats. Caustic and incendiary weapons will do reduced direct damage compared to similar non-elemental (and even explosive/electric variants), but do a good portion of their damage in the proc.

 

[n7]

Combat rifles do suck for the most part. They are basically for sniping, but unfortunately, it's sometimes hard to find good scopes on them.

Some aren't too bad.

Machine guns are just amazing if you can get good ones.

Especially when you have overload maxed out + metal storm, you can mow down pretty much anything in short order with a good machine gun, far better than with a good SMG (assuming you're playing as soldier).

I never used machine guns much when i first started playing the game, but once you farm yourself some good ones, holy crap Roland is filled with win.

4.0+ RoF snipers you say?

Penetrator says howdy.

Good combat rifles + machine guns most definitely exist, but i'd say a little farming is often required to get really nice ones.
The same is usually the case for most good stuff though. The odds of just getting an epic gun from a random enemy or chest aren't terribly high...it takes some time, and luck.

 

[Aikouka]

Haha should have known you would post the only fully-auto sniper rifle.

In regard to those elemental rifles... what tech level are they? They don't have the usual prefixes. I actually had to go back and read up on elemental tech again:

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_Damage

 

[Markbnj]

/shrug. I don't know, only my first play through, but I feel like my hunter is doing quite well with combat rifles. If something is at range I'm on it with the long gun anyway. By the time I whip out the CR the mobs are closer, and it just seems to get the job done.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I'm finding crowd control easier as a hunter with 2 levels of the multiple attack skill for the bloodwing (= 3 targets) + daze at 5 + a class mod that adds 48% bloodwing damage plus extra daze chance. It often kills 1-2 bandits and dazes the third, then brings me back to full health. "Good boy!"