********BORDERLANDS discussion thread*******

[marmasatt]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Cell shading wasn't exactly at the top of my wish list, but if it's a good game, I'll buy it anyways.

This. Funny I thought the video looked great in some places and like 2D in others...

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: smackababy
Yes there are a lot of free MMOs, but I find the community you find in those is usually immature and centered around griefing. Not that this doesn't happen on paid MMOs, but you find a lot less of it and more of a community worth experiencing.

Considering that WoW has one of the most immature communities I have ever experienced in an MMO, akin to CounterStrike, I don't buy that.

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
The fact is, there are a lot of free MMOs out there, and there is an obivous difference in the amount of work put into the subscription ones, as well as overall quality. If I'm going to spend a lot of time playing one game, I'd rather pay $15 a month to play a good one, than play an ok one for free.

This is a better reason to rationalize paying a subscription fees. MMOs without usually lack quality and polish.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: datalink7
Why not? It costs money to run the servers and continue to add content. Why shouldn't they be paid for it?

Didn't blizzard make up 4 years of server maintenance in one month?

Talk about cost to run the servers...

As for new content, that usually comes in expansions, which you purchase separately.

I don't know about WoW, as I only played it when it first came out. But LOTRO (which I play) has new content that you don't pay for in expansions.

And regardless of whether they make up 4 years in one month or not, there is some cost involved. You can argue that the price should be less but to argue that the company should just shell out the money themselves seems silly to me. Why should they do that?

I never said that they should. I was just pointing out that the inflation of subscription fees has not stemmed from a proportional inflation of server costs.

Subscription fees are decided based on what the consumer is willing to spend. The actual cost of the servers has little to no effect on it.

 

[gorobei]

it would more correctly be called line-shader with stylized rendering. traditional cel shader is like the posterize filter on PShop, all colors narrowed down to 2 or 3 tones. this is closer to TF2's stylized rendering (lots of rim lighting for silhouette separation, and some tweaking of shadow tones, but with a wierd specularity gradient effect).

 

[Wag]

Giantbomb Borderlands

What you're seeing here is supposedly very early game footage- the game is supposed to be well over 60+ hrs long, and they're purposely holding back on us. Read the article for more.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: gorobei
it would more correctly be called line-shader with stylized rendering. traditional cel shader is like the posterize filter on PShop, all colors narrowed down to 2 or 3 tones. this is closer to TF2's stylized rendering (lots of rim lighting for silhouette separation, and some tweaking of shadow tones, but with a wierd specularity gradient effect).

what? this looks nothing like TF2 unless they completely changed the art style since I last played.

 

[CrystalBay]

I hope this game is fun, looks good to me...

 

[ja1484]

I don't have an automatic problem with the cel shading, but the GUI enrages me. Way too busy, too many floating numbers...no thank you.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: datalink7
Why not? It costs money to run the servers and continue to add content. Why shouldn't they be paid for it?

Didn't blizzard make up 4 years of server maintenance in one month?

Talk about cost to run the servers...

As for new content, that usually comes in expansions, which you purchase separately.

I don't know about WoW, as I only played it when it first came out. But LOTRO (which I play) has new content that you don't pay for in expansions.

And regardless of whether they make up 4 years in one month or not, there is some cost involved. You can argue that the price should be less but to argue that the company should just shell out the money themselves seems silly to me. Why should they do that?

They can charge whatever they want, it's their right, I just wish the consumers wouldn't be such stupid sheep and pay it. If WoW players or any other MMO subscribers had enough intelligence they would see that paying those fees are ridiculous. Ultimately, I think they are what's killing PC gaming.

I think you're ridiculous. If you can't tell the difference in recurring costs between a single player game that you get 30 to 40 hours out of and an MMORPG where you get hundreds if not thousands of hours of playtime then you're a lost cause. Do you realize how much it costs to employ the developers that are always working on new content, and bug fixes for current content? Do you have any idea how much it costs to run and maintain all of the servers that support MMORPGs? The power bill alone must be huge. How do you think they back everything up? Do you have any idea how much SANs cost?

There's a reason no one plays free MMORPGs, they generally suck. If you don't want to pay a monthly fee for a game then fine, I understand that. However, you sound incredibly ignorant when you question the intelligence of everyone that does pay a monthly fee for a game. Have you ever worked in IT?

 

[Dumac]

MMO thread derailing aside, I actually have my eye on this title.

I'll wait to see what the general consensus is before jumping on it, but it looks great.

 

[Bull Dog]

I think cell shading looks fine. I don't see what all the hate here is about.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: ja1484
I don't have an automatic problem with the cel shading, but the GUI enrages me. Way too busy, too many floating numbers...no thank you.

The floating numbers are essential for the RPG side of the game.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: ja1484
I don't have an automatic problem with the cel shading, but the GUI enrages me. Way too busy, too many floating numbers...no thank you.

The floating numbers are essential for the RPG side of the game.

No they're not. I turn off floaters in every RPG I play because it wrecks the suspension of disbelief. It's a stupid "traditional" feature of RPGs that needs to die a swift death, especially in a hybrid title like this.

Besides, the numbers are only part of the problem...the rest of the gui is a crime against humanity as well. It takes up a good third of the screen with all the dials and widgets.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Bull Dog
I think cell shading looks fine. I don't see what all the hate here is about.

its the worst graphical style ever developed

 

[smackababy]

I am sure you can turn the floating numbers off, and I seriously don't understand why "traditional" RPG styles need to die out? You're right, lets never play turn based things again... I am sure the GUI will be customizable enough to hide most of that crap. I am looking forward to checking this one out, for at least a bit.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: Gothgar
QQ about cel shading some more

Game looks fun

I liked the preview, it looked like Hellgate London done correctly. Then I read the thread and it's endless bitching about the graphics.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: ja1484
I don't have an automatic problem with the cel shading, but the GUI enrages me. Way too busy, too many floating numbers...no thank you.

The floating numbers are essential for the RPG side of the game.

No they're not. I turn off floaters in every RPG I play because it wrecks the suspension of disbelief. It's a stupid "traditional" feature of RPGs that needs to die a swift death, especially in a hybrid title like this.

Besides, the numbers are only part of the problem...the rest of the gui is a crime against humanity as well. It takes up a good third of the screen with all the dials and widgets.

If you turn off damage numbers, then you're the oddball, not us. Some of us don't need to put on our robe and wizard hat to play a game.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: ja1484
I don't have an automatic problem with the cel shading, but the GUI enrages me. Way too busy, too many floating numbers...no thank you.

The floating numbers are essential for the RPG side of the game.

No they're not. I turn off floaters in every RPG I play because it wrecks the suspension of disbelief. It's a stupid "traditional" feature of RPGs that needs to die a swift death, especially in a hybrid title like this.

Besides, the numbers are only part of the problem...the rest of the gui is a crime against humanity as well. It takes up a good third of the screen with all the dials and widgets.

GUI is usually pretty customizable in games like this.

I don't know if the GUI actually will be, but I expect it would offer at least minimal customization.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: Gothgar
QQ about cel shading some more

Game looks fun

I liked the preview, it looked like Hellgate London done correctly. Then I read the thread and it's endless bitching about the graphics.

I know, right?

Let's not actually discuss the content or gameplay, as those damn characters are too damn cartoonish! Where is my grimdark ultra-realistic grey and brown!

 

[ja1484]

Pardon my lack of enthusiasm, but content and gameplay? Is there anything in this game we haven't done before? I'm still trying to figure out why I should be interested.

Given that all modern AAA titles are the same thing:

(kill ---> get[money,ammo,quest item,red key,XP] ----> maybe dialogue ----> return to step 1)

I pretty much only play games for story or art style these days. The cel shading doesn't particularly hook me, and the story seems vanilla? Where's mah interest?

 

[smackababy]

Originally posted by: ja1484
Pardon my lack of enthusiasm, but content and gameplay? Is there anything in this game we haven't done before? I'm still trying to figure out why I should be interested.

Given that all modern AAA titles are the same thing:

(kill ---> get[money,ammo,quest item,red key,XP] ----> maybe dialogue ----> return to step 1)

I pretty much only play games for story or art style these days. The cel shading doesn't particularly hook me, and the story seems vanilla? Where's mah interest?

Why do I still play video games? It is all the same: pressing buttons; clicking stuff. All been done before. Let's all move to the Wii, k? Oh wait, that was done before too (Powerglove anyone?)

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: smackababy
Why do I still play video games? It is all the same: pressing buttons; clicking stuff. All been done before. Let's all move to the Wii, k? Oh wait, that was done before too (Powerglove anyone?)

Once again: where is my story or aesthetic hook?

You'll excuse me for not being enthused about shooting stuff that looks different from the last stuff I shot. I think you're misinterpreting the point. Games can and are fun, but I see nothing about Borderlands that isn't generic. Feel free to enlighten me to what I'm overlooking.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: Gothgar
QQ about cel shading some more

Game looks fun

I liked the preview, it looked like Hellgate London done correctly. Then I read the thread and it's endless bitching about the graphics.

I know, right?

Let's not actually discuss the content or gameplay, as those damn characters are too damn cartoonish! Where is my grimdark ultra-realistic grey and brown!

so you watch porn with butt ugly women? or you watch 2 hour feature movies filmed with a cell phone camera? i mean, its all about content and story, right?

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: ja1484
Once again: where is my story or aesthetic hook?

You'll excuse me for not being enthused about shooting stuff that looks different from the last stuff I shot. I think you're misinterpreting the point. Games can and are fun, but I see nothing about Borderlands that isn't generic. Feel free to enlighten me to what I'm overlooking.

FPS + action RPG.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Jumpem

Originally posted by: ja1484
Once again: where is my story or aesthetic hook?

You'll excuse me for not being enthused about shooting stuff that looks different from the last stuff I shot. I think you're misinterpreting the point. Games can and are fun, but I see nothing about Borderlands that isn't generic. Feel free to enlighten me to what I'm overlooking.

FPS + action RPG.

Maybe I'm not being clear, and I need to read a book or something to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Let me try again.

I'm not saying this will be a bad game or no one will like it - I'm saying I haven't seen anything - not one thing - in the previews that looks fresh, new, or interesting. I have no interest based on the gameplay videos and trailers I've seen so far. Is there anything I have missed in the press coverage, or is this game just not to my taste?

Having a shooter where I also have to manage a skill tree does not excite me. I'm kind of saddened that it excites anyone. That it's a coop experience also does not seem to be particularly special to me: Action RPGs and Coop games have been done before. A lot of previous entries streamlined the process - class based games like TF2, Battlefield et al are pretty much exactly that, except instead of picking a pre-defined class, you can spend hours in Borderlands grinding to create your own class. In other words, instead of doing it as part of game design, they left the player to do the labor. While this has the arguable benefit of being more varied and flexible than classes, it will probably misfire. Classes work well because they're balanced. Player-created "characters" will probably all be generic fighters with a few tacked-on skils (this guy can hack, that guy can heal, the female character can use her boobs to distract enemies, etc.)

If you want shooter combat with different player abilities, classes make a lot more sense. Here's your guy, here are his abilities, get to it. No need to fuck around with killing a bunch of rats (insert their equivalent grinder fodder here) to turn yourself into the HW Guy or the Pyro. Just pick him from the list and start playing.

I think the reason you saw plenty of class based team shooters but not whatever this thing is is because game companies recognized this during development. Most shooter fans don't want to dick around with grinding, loot, and skill points. Most RPG fans want more story, dialogue, and customization than an RPG-lite with shooter combat allows. The type of game Borderlands appears to be (again, unless I've missed something) is a game that does neither one well. I love both genres, but for their respective strengths. I think a game like this could work. But it would need to be rooted in something more special than a generic post-apoc wasteland.

For example, I'd pay, potentially with vital organs, for a Coop STALKER game in a second. THAT is an experience I would love to share with others, in no small part because it would decrease the amount of time I spent scared shitless. But Borderlands doesn't seem to have anything remotely approaching that level of uniqueness in either setting or combat.


It's like being thirsty for either water or beer and drinking Zima. I think it'll do several things averagely to below-averagely, nothing well, and be forgotten quickly.