Bolt on Turbo

[Vdubchaos]

I have owned four MR2s, a turbocharged Subaru and a CTS-V (plus a few non performance vehicles). I also race. As does jch13. I know what it costs.

You can lecture me on money all you like - but different people have different priorities. What makes you so special that you can tell everyone else how to live?

Let me ask you this.

What makes my opinion so important and special to you? What makes you think that I'm telling everyone how to live???

I'm simply stating my lessons learned/my experience. It's up to a reader to determine what makes sense to THEM.

And no I'm not a god and I'm not perfect (just so we are clear here).

Whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

 

[GoatMonkey]

You would be better off just buying a turbocharged Cobalt from the factory if you really want that. They had a supercharged version early on that wasn't that great, but 2009+ had a 260hp turbocharged SS version that was pretty quick.

 

[JCH13]

Sorry but plenty of people out there that are able to achieve these HP numbers on Stock Internals.

Of course that doesn't make it very reliable or lasts long, but it's possible. And if you trea the car right.....it can last.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used a word "double". But in general, Turbo engines are build stronger than NA engines and they can withstand more power.

*facepalm* post an example then!

I love how you used High HP cars for Turbo examples but low HP cars for NA examples.

Of course a stress of going from 100-200HP > 300-400hp are not as huge as going from 300hp> 600hp

Well... turbo cars are more powerful to begin with, that's kind of the point.

Also all of the NA examples are stock internals right?

Ohh yea, your math is not adding up either.....

Also who in this world wants to turbo these pesky engines you posted?

:biggrin:

All my NA numbers came from first-hand experience, confirmed on a build thread, or from a kit manufacturer. Clearly plenty of people want to boost those engines because there are a lot of companies that make their money doing that.

People with 1.8Ts have been doubling the HP on stock internals since the 90s....so no it's not an exception. If you do it right Turbo engines are build strong.

You are ALWAYS better off starting off with pre turboes car when modifying vs NA car > Turbo.

Of course if money is no object, either will do.

In this case we are talking about a Cobalt.

*facepalm again* My point is that you were making insane generalizations. I completely agree that starting with a factory turbocharged/supercharged car is almost always the most cost effective route for a fast car. I also agree that factory turbocharged engines are almost always stronger than their NA counterparts. I bought an MS3 for just that reason. But it is completely insane/ignorant to generalize that NA cars are poor candidates for boosting or that they're 'at the edge' of what they can handle. I got a my turbo Miata because the 1990-93 Miata engine is almost entirely lifted from a boosted car, the 323GTX. It is also totally insane/ignorant to claim that most turbocharged cars can handle double their factory power.

Every engine has to be taken on a case-by-case basis when evaluating it as a candidate for adding boost, very few generalizations can be made. Would I turbo a Duratec 30 V6? Hell no, powder metal head components will explode. Would I turbo a 1MZ V6? Hell yes because it can take boost like a champ.

Additionally, one does not need to be a home owner or a garage owner to work on, modify, or tinker with a car. Don't get me wrong (again) it certainly helps a lot, but it is by no means requisite. I've done plenty of good, productive work in parking lots with just a 5-gallon bucket of tools and jack. If you're lucky enough to have a friend with a garage, you're set. Many enthusiast forums will have 'mod meets' where a bunch of people get together to turn wrenches on cars, that's a great way to get into it without much overhead. The rising trend of 'rent by the hour' garages with tools makes this even more feasible.

My problem with your post is that you stated many things as if they were absolute truth, and quite discouraging at that. I wanted to make sure a potential n00b into the car modding world wasn't immediately turned away by the sheer craziness of your post, nor buy a boosted car and expect to double it's power.

 

[jlee]

The Cobalt SS is a pretty decent amount of car for the money - you would likely be much better off getting one of those.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Bolt on Turbo

No such thing.

Even with a mild 4-5 PSI setup you're still going to need a new intake, new exhaust, and some sort of custom tuning for the ECU (assuming that the stock injectors can handle the increased fueling demands of an engine with forced induction). And after that you're not going to see all that much extra power.

If you want decent amounts of boost, you'll have to start getting into things like lower-compression pistons and other internal modifications.

It's not that it can't be done, it's just that even the cheapest way to do it properly will probably cost about half of what the car's worth and will likely make it more difficult to sell the car later on (modified cars in my experience have a harder time finding a buyer because most people don't want to deal with potential problems from aftermarket modifications). You definitely won't get back the money you spent on the modifications even if you find someone who wants a car with those mods.

Basically, unless you're into working on cars as a hobby it's almost always cheaper and easier to just sell the car you have and buy a more powerful car than it is to try to modify the one you've got. If you want to do it because you like the challenge or because tinkering is fun, then let slip the dogs of modification and have at it, but just remember that it's not generally a wise financial move.*

*I have made many of these unwise financial moves in my own vehicular history and I wouldn't change a thing, but I'd be remiss not to caution others against my own bad habits.

ZV

 

[Vdubchaos]

All my NA numbers came from first-hand experience, confirmed on a build thread, or from a kit manufacturer. Clearly plenty of people want to boost those engines because there are a lot of companies that make their money doing that.

Clearly some Car Enthusiasts are not the brightest bunch.

*facepalm again* My point is that you were making insane generalizations. I completely agree that starting with a factory turbocharged/supercharged car is almost always the most cost effective route for a fast car. I also agree that factory turbocharged engines are almost always stronger than their NA counterparts. I bought an MS3 for just that reason.

That's really all I was trying to say.

Additionally, one does not need to be a home owner or a garage owner to work on, modify, or tinker with a car. Don't get me wrong (again) it certainly helps a lot, but it is by no means requisite. I've done plenty of good, productive work in parking lots with just a 5-gallon bucket of tools and jack. If you're lucky enough to have a friend with a garage, you're set. Many enthusiast forums will have 'mod meets' where a bunch of people get together to turn wrenches on cars, that's a great way to get into it without much overhead. The rising trend of 'rent by the hour' garages with tools makes this even more feasible.

You don't have to tell me. ALL of my work past 17 + years have been done in a drive way. Saved over 15k in labor (5+ cars over the years and every single repair/maintenance).

Can't even tell you # of meets I've been to....

It was more from a "keeping the nice car clean and not wasting time cleaning it every 2-3 days to keep it looking good"

My problem with your post is that you stated many things as if they were absolute truth, and quite discouraging at that. I wanted to make sure a potential n00b into the car modding world wasn't immediately turned away by the sheer craziness of your post, nor buy a boosted car and expect to double it's power.

I think you are assuming that my opinion is absolute truth. They are general "rule of thumb" things that I've learned over the years and no it doesn't apply to everything or everyone.

I don't think my post was sheer craziness though. Chances are,OP hasn't changed their oil yet....so most of what I said would most likely apply to his situation.

 

[JCH13]

Clearly some Car Enthusiasts are not the brightest bunch.

That's really all I was trying to say.

You don't have to tell me. ALL of my work past 17 + years have been done in a drive way. Saved over 15k in labor (5+ cars over the years and every single repair/maintenance).

Can't even tell you # of meets I've been to....

It was more from a "keeping the nice car clean and not wasting time cleaning it every 2-3 days to keep it looking good"

I think you are assuming that my opinion is absolute truth. They are general "rule of thumb" things that I've learned over the years and no it doesn't apply to everything or everyone.

I don't think my post was sheer craziness though. Chances are,OP hasn't changed their oil yet....so most of what I said would most likely apply to his situation.

1) Say what you actually mean.
2) Don't be so hypocritical as to tell someone to do something you've never' done in 17 years.'
3) Owning an house and a garage to 'keep your car clean' is the most frivolous reason possible. Also, the most poorly communicated reason in the history of reasons.
4) I never assumed your opinion was truth, I even said as much. Twice.
5) Taken at face value your post was utter insanity.

 

[Ferzerp]

How about you you point out where I'm wrong and prove me wrong vs spit out bunch of BS.

Oh yes, the words of someone who doesn't understand the burden of proof.

You made the wild claim, you have to back it up. Others don't need to "prove [you] wrong".

 

[phucheneh]

No such thing.


ZV

I just take that to mean it comes with all the supporting parts (manifold, downpipe, intercooler and piping, ect) and does not require any work on the long block or custom fab...just remove all the old parts and install the new ones.

Which is a doable feat, though I tend to question the decisions made with a lot of kits. It's best to think through the important decisions yourself (and do needed research) rather than just expecting someone else's design to be perfect.

The big thing is that I've never heard of any electrical 'bolt-ons.' Best case, you can use a programmer or send your computer out to be modded. But a lot of the time, you're going to be doing wiring and installing at least a piggyback ECU, as someone mentioned. Granted, it may have stock harness plugs and not require any additional sensors or controls...

...but it'd have to be one hell of a good kit to truly be both 'bolt-on' and 'plug and play.'

My point: ...don't have one. Just commenting on the feasibility of buying a kit someone else made, installing it on your car painlessly, and having it work well. It IS possible...but I'd rather play the lottery.

 

[Plugers]

http://www.motionlabtuning.com/attachments/article/76/saab_ecotec_performance_guide.pdf

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0907_gm_ecotec_bolt_ons/viewall.html

GM says over 100hp on stock block apparently.
http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?952348-GM-to-turn-EcoTec-into-the-next-SBC

 

[phucheneh]

Somehow I doubt the Ecotec in a 2005 Cobalt is good for 1000hp.

That first link is pretty great, though, assuming the info is all good. It states the connecting rods in the L61 ecotec are only good to 250hp. To me, that says 'no freaking way I'd boost this thing,' even if you only added 50hp to the stock ~150.

Such specific numbers ('rods bend at precisely x amount of horsepower') are generally not obtained in a terribly scientific way, so interpret them broadly...basically, 'rod failures are possible in the 200-300hp range.'

I would recommend that the OP simply try and find some more simple bolt-ons for his NA engine. If possible, find stuff that people have actually tested the worth of empirically...don't buy an exhaust that claims 15hp or whatever unless someone has actually done before and after dyno pulls with it.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

w/ a turbo its still just a cobalt.


EDIT: vdubchaos = Alkemyst?
question v-dub, how often do you beat your chest... or scratch your head? You ask for 'proof' whilst not providing any to prove your own points... very alkemystic.

And OP I get the obsession with Cobalt. I used to own a 97 cavalier that I thought was the tits. Its just that it wasnt. Maybe you can fit a 3800 in there???!!

My MR2 is a piece of shit too.

 

[JCH13]

I just take that to mean it comes with all the supporting parts (manifold, downpipe, intercooler and piping, ect) and does not require any work on the long block or custom fab...just remove all the old parts and install the new ones.

Which is a doable feat, though I tend to question the decisions made with a lot of kits. It's best to think through the important decisions yourself (and do needed research) rather than just expecting someone else's design to be perfect.

The big thing is that I've never heard of any electrical 'bolt-ons.' Best case, you can use a programmer or send your computer out to be modded. But a lot of the time, you're going to be doing wiring and installing at least a piggyback ECU, as someone mentioned. Granted, it may have stock harness plugs and not require any additional sensors or controls...

...but it'd have to be one hell of a good kit to truly be both 'bolt-on' and 'plug and play.'

My point: ...don't have one. Just commenting on the feasibility of buying a kit someone else made, installing it on your car painlessly, and having it work well. It IS possible...but I'd rather play the lottery.

There are some companies that do the 'turbo kit' REALLY well, like Flyin' Miata. They let you configure nearly every aspect of the kit from parts they know to work well.

 

[pauldun170]

How silly would it be to get a bolt on turbo for a 2005 Cobalt base model (the 5 speed manual)?

Been itching to get some more speed out of my car but not sure I can polish this turd to make it worth it. But the car is paid for so...

Just revisiting to answer the question

Your base cobalt has the 2.2 L61
The early Cobalt SS 's came with supercharged 2.0's and later ones came with turbo 2.0 (LNF)
There was also a N\A Cobalt SS with a 2.4

I've heard the 2.4 head will bolt up to the 2.2 but I've also heard it can be a PIA with surprises.

Turboing the L61 (and maintaining it) will probably cost the same or more as buying faster car with better handling (than the base 2.2 Cobalt.)
Its one thing to buy the parts.
Its another to install
Its another to keep it running. There are always unexpected cost when dealing with cars pushing a decade.

If you visit the cobalt forums you will find some tips on extracting more power out of the 2.2

If you are broke enough where you where you trying to "polish a turd" then it is probably wiser to instead save your money for a nicer car (or more important priorities) while your "turd" reliably gets you from point a to point b.

Keep the Cobalt stock. All the little BS items like intake\exhaust on it (meaning an 8 year old OHC 2.2) will only lead to a loud car and slow "turd".


Having said that....
http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-2l-l61-performance-tech-45/

turbo thread
http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-2l...o-super-forced-induction-build-thread-208355/

 

[Xyclone]

Extra power in a chassis not built for it, more wear on the suspension parts, torque steer for a front wheel drive, wear on tires due to extra torque, extra complication in the system, unreliability of turbo system...?

Took the words right out of my mouth. Don't waste your money, OP.

 

[Dice144]

Been busy so just checked back today. Figured will just sell my old 1991 Kaw Ninja and get a newer bike. That will take care of my need for speed.

Got the cobalt because I am at heart cheap! Have the cash (not rich) but enough for a new car monthly payments. Figure get to the two year mark on this car and finally get my dream of an AWD car.