Bob Woodward - No Lies found

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Arguing that the legislature doesn't have access to the same, if not more, intelligence than the executive is completely ridiculous.

No. In fact, arguing that the legislature DOES have access to the same (or even more!?) access to intelligence as the executive is completely ridiculous. If you ever get a chance, try and make that argument to a member of Congress or their staff. You will be laughed at.

Every intelligence gathering agency reports to congress. Every one gets their budget to exist through congress. How is congress to have the power of checks and balances if this wasn't the case? The executive could do whatever and say whatever they want with impunity. Sorry, but only the simpleton thinks that this is the case and why they just fall back on blaming Bush in this matter.

Every intelligence agency reports to Congress, but they do not report all the intelligence they gather. Here's a quote from the CIA's own website on the issue, which is clearly going to be even more diplomatic about intelligence sharing than what the situation really is. (they are talking about the National Security Act of 1947 as amended, which is the principal document under which intelligence is gathered)

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ongress-as-a-user-of-intelligence/1.htm#rft42

Among other things, the legislation spelled out the DCI's responsibility to provide substantive intelligence that was "timely, objective, independent of political considerations, and based upon all sources available to the Intelligence Community" to customers in the executive branch, and "where appropriate, to the Senate and House of Representatives and the committees thereof" (italics added).(42) This was the first time that the requirement to provide intelligence to Congress had been expressly stated in law.

Did you catch that? There was literally no requirement for intelligence agencies to share a single shred of intelligence with Congress until the 1990's. Even now it's "where appropriate", which leaves them huge latitude to leave things out.

So your argument is that the intelligence committee is the only one who knows anything and in this case, they just didn't tell anyone what they knew? That's more ridiculous that the first argument.

It's only ridiculous if you don't understand how intelligence gathering and oversight works. Of course the intelligence committees didn't share that information with other members of Congress. Those other members of Congress weren't authorized to access that information and giving it to them could have potentially exposed members of the intelligence committee to criminal prosecution.

Seriously, just stop. You have no idea how this stuff works. Congress did not have anywhere remotely close to the amount of intelligence available to the executive. This is not unique to the Iraq War situation, this is how things ALWAYS are. As I already mentioned this is a fundamental problem with the intelligence oversight process. (but one that's very hard to fix)

EDIT: Biff, if you're interested in getting a better handle on how intelligence oversight works I remember a great book from college called Intelligence: From Secrets to Policy that goes over the relevant issues really well. It may sound boring, but it's actually really interesting reading if you're into that sort of thing.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
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You seem to consistently have problems following along in threads. This thread is about Bush and Iraq, which is why people in this thread are talking about them. Further, it's not a Democrat who started the thread, nor was it MSNBC or another Democratic-leaning source who broadcast the comments by Woodward.

Finally, I am not a Democrat, but I'm certainly on board with their concerns about starting wars on false pretenses that cost hundred of thousands of innocent lives and added upwards of two trillion dollars to our national debt. They still matter. Your whining is self-serving and backwards.

"Hey guys! Look! Bush didn't really lie!"

"Uhh, yeah, he did."

"OMFG, would you just move on??!!"
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Seriously, just stop. You have no idea how this stuff works. Congress did not have anywhere remotely close to the amount of intelligence available to the executive. This is not unique to the Iraq War situation, this is how things ALWAYS are. As I already mentioned this is a fundamental problem with the intelligence oversight process. (but one that's very hard to fix)

Can we pause for a moment and just appreciate the fact that we are literally arguing over whether congress has the same access to intelligence as the president?

I mean, remember the cuban missile crisis, when the CIA told congress about the missile installations being built, and then congress told Kennedy?

Like, fucking water is running uphill at this point.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Can we pause for a moment and just appreciate the fact that we are literally arguing over whether congress has the same access to intelligence as the president?

I mean, remember the cuban missile crisis, when the CIA told congress about the missile installations being built, and then congress told Kennedy?

Like, fucking water is running uphill at this point.

I would say that not only does Congress not have the same access, they shouldn't. Intelligence access is on a need to know basis, for obvious reasons. People performing oversight of intelligence activities simply don't need the daily access to the voluminous amount of intelligence available, nor do they generally have the time or staff to effectively evaluate it.

What Congress SHOULD have is far better subpoena powers for intelligence committee members along with specific individuals, vetted and authorized by the executive, to conduct their own unfettered investigations. One of the big problems with Congressional oversight isn't that they don't try and oversee intelligence operations, but that they don't even know some of them exist. It's hard to subpoena documents about something you aren't even aware of.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Let's recap the "developments" so far according to resident Republicans:
Bush had no clue and didn't know anything about why he was starting a war, and his staff, which was briefing Congress, actually knew less than Congress when it was doing it.
Oh, and they have another Bush they want you to elect in 2016. Will this one have a clue? Elect him and Bob Woodward will tell you in 2030.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,505
16,997
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Your right wing talking point was debunked back in 2005. No surprise righties are using it again.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2005/11/08/conservatives-falsely-claimed-white-house-and-c/134180

Arguing that the legislature doesn't have access to the same, if not more, intelligence than the executive is completely ridiculous. Every intelligence gathering agency reports to congress. Every one gets their budget to exist through congress. How is congress to have the power of checks and balances if this wasn't the case? The executive could do whatever and say whatever they want with impunity. Sorry, but only the simpleton thinks that this is the case and why they just fall back on blaming Bush in this matter.

So your argument is that the intelligence committee is the only one who knows anything and in this case, they just didn't tell anyone what they knew? That's more ridiculous that the first argument.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Let's recap the "developments" so far according to resident Republicans:
Bush had no clue and didn't know anything about why he was starting a war, and his staff, which was briefing Congress, actually knew less than Congress when it was doing it.
Oh, and they have another Bush they want you to elect in 2016. Will this one have a clue? Elect him and Bob Woodward will tell you in 2030.

Kind of like "you have to pass the bill so you can see what's in the bill"?
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,228
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"It is the judgment of many of us that in the not-too-distant future, he [Hussein] will acquire nuclear weapons, and a nuclear-armed Saddam Hussein is not a pleasant prospect, for anyone in the region or for anyone in the world for that matter."
-----Vice President Dick Cheney, Aug. 7, 2002, at the Commonwealth Club of California


"We now know that Saddam has resumed his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. Among other sources, we've gotten this from firsthand testimony from defectors, including Saddam's own son-in-law, who was subsequently murdered at Saddam's direction. Many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon."
-----Vice President Dick Cheney, Aug. 26, 2002, National Convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars


Bush said "a report came out of the...IAEA that they [the Iraqis] were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need."
-----President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair, Sept. 7, 2002


"Two debuts took place on Sept. 8 [2002]: the aluminum tubes and the image of "a mushroom cloud."...
No one knows when Iraq will have it's weapon, the story [in the Sunday, Sept. 8, 2002 New York Times] said, but "the first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

Top officials made the rounds of the talk shows that morning. Rice's remarks echoed the newspaper story. She said on CNN's "Late Edition" that Hussein was "actively pursuing a nuclear weapon" and that the tubes- described repeatedly in U.S. intelligence reports as "dual use" items- were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs."

"There will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons," Rice added, "but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."
"Powell...when asked about biological and chemical arms on Fox News, he brought up nuclear weapons and cited the "specialized aluminum tubing" that "we saw in reporting just this morning."

Cheney, on NBC's "Meet the Press," also mentioned the tubes and said, "increasingly, we believe the United States will become the target" of an Iraqi nuclear weapon. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, on CBS's "Face the Nation," asked listeners to "imagine a September 11th with weapons of mass destruction," which would kill "tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children."


"We don't have all the evidence [but enough of a picture] that tells us that he [Hussein] is in fact actively and aggressively seeking to acquire nuclear weapons."
"We do know, with absolute certainty that he [Hussein] is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon."
-----Vice President Dick Cheney, Sept. 8, 2002, Meet the Press, confirming New York Times story and Condoleezza Rice statement on the aluminum tubes story]



“The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists.”
-----President George W. Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, Cincinnati



And yet.......


The claims that Iraq was rebuilding nuke facilities and that Saddam was meeting with his scientists were left out of Bush’s Jan. 28, 2003 State of the Union address.

"Lacking persuasive evidence that Baghdad has launched a coherent effort to reconstitute it's nuclear weapons program, [the State department's intelligence office] is unwilling to speculate that such an effort began soon after the departure of U.N. inspectors or to project a timeline for completion of activities it does not now see happening." ------Oct. 2002 National Intelligence Estimate

"The IAEA had found no evidence or plausible indication of the revival of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq."
-----IAEA final report to the United Nations Security Council, March 7, 2003


The report [Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report, July 9, 2004] said the CIA made a "significant shift" in it's position two months after Cheney began stating publicly that Iraq had actively reconstituted it's nuclear weapons program. The intelligence estimate, which echoed the administration's public claims, "was not supported by the intelligence" and relied on misstatements, concealment of doubts and suppression of evidence."


Reconstituted nuke program claim "Not supported by the evidence."
-----Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report, July 9, 2004


Charles A. Duelfer, whom the Bush administration chose to complete the U.S. investigation of Iraq's weapons programs, said [Oct. 6, 2004, presenting his report to two Congressional committees] Hussein's ability to produce nuclear weapons has "decayed" continuously since 1991. Inspectors, he said, found no evidence of "concerted efforts to restart the program."

...."Duelfer's report contradicted a number of specific claims made by administration officials before the war.

It found, for example, that Iraq's "crash" program in 1991 to build a nuclear weapon before the Gulf War was far from successful, nowhere near the "months away" from producing a weapon, as the administration asserted. Only micrograms of enriched uranium were produced, and no weapon design was completed."

"He [Duelfer] added that the Iraq Survey Group investigators had found no evidence "to suggest concerted efforts to restart the program" ...Duelfer concluded they "uncovered no indication that Iraq had resumed fissile material or nuclear weapons research and development activities since 1991.” [21]

“But on Jan. 27, - the day before the State of the Union Address – the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported to the U.N. Security Council that two months of inspections in Iraq had found that no prohibited nuclear activities had taken place at former Iraqi nuclear sites… Mohamed ElBaradei [said] preliminary analysis… suggested that the aluminum tubes, “unless modified, would not be suitable for manufacturing centrifuges.”


The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of October 2002 cited new construction at facilities once associated with Iraq’s nuclear program, but analysts had no reliable information at the time about what was happening under the roofs. By February, a month before the war, U.S. government specialists on the ground in Iraq had seen for themselves that there were no forbidden activities at the sites.”


“There was no new IAEA report. Blair appeared to be referring to news reports describing curiosity at the nuclear agency about repairs at sites of Iraq’s former nuclear program. Bush cast as present evidence the contents of a report from 1996, updated in 1998 and 1999. In these accounts, the IAEA described the history of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program that arms inspectors had systematically destroyed.

A White House spokesman later acknowledged that Bush “was imprecise” on his source but stood by the crux of his charge.

“That is just about the same thing as saying that if Iraq gets a bomb, it will have a bomb,” said a U.S. intelligence analyst who covers the subject. “We had no evidence for it.”” "Depiction of Threat Outgrew Supporting Evidence," by Barton Gellman and Walter Pincus, Washington Post, Aug. 10, 2003, p. A1


The President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board has concluded that the White House made a questionable claim in January’s State of the Union address about Saddam Hussein’s efforts to obtain nuclear materials because of it’s desperation to show that Hussein had an active program to develop nuclear weapons according to a well placed source familiar with the board’s findings.

“...the board believes the White House was so anxious “to grab onto something affirmative” about Hussein’s nuclear ambitions that it disregarded warnings from the intelligence community that the claim was questionable.
“The findings ...make it clear that the White House should share blame with the CIA for allowing questionable material into the speech.





“Saddam Hussein is out of the nuclear business.” – Defense Secretary Cheney to a closed session of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in Jan. or Feb. 1991 during the Desert Storm bombing campaign.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
Kind of like "you have to pass the bill so you can see what's in the bill"?

How do you guys still get that quote wrong after all these years?

It was WE (Congress, who knows what's in the bill) have to pass the bill so YOU (average Americans who don't) can see what's in it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
How do you guys still get that quote wrong after all these years?

It was WE (Congress, who knows what's in the bill) have to pass the bill so YOU (average Americans who don't) can see what's in it.
Same as with most things: getting it right undermines their agenda.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Yep, par for the Republican course. An informed electorate is their party's doom, so I don't blame them.

bwhahahhahhahhaaa

You honestly think the number of uninformed republicans is higher than uninformed democrats?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
bwhahahhahhahhaaa

You honestly think the number of uninformed republicans is higher than uninformed democrats?
The issue is "misinformed." Uninformed would be an improvement. Uninformed may be willing to learn; misinformed are too often entrenched in their false beliefs.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,293
32,794
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March 16, 2003 Dick Cheney goes on Meet The Press and said Saddam has reconstituted his "nuclear weapons"

Deputy Director of the CIA at that time Mike Morrell was interviewed by Chris Mathews and stated what Dick Cheney said was not true. Mike's job was to brief the President on intelligence.

How much more proof do you people need? That was a lie!!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136

Why did you choose a poll from 2010?

What you will actually find if you look into the issue more is that people are consistently misinformed about political information they don't like. If you look at November 2010, most of the news was bad for Democrats, so they get more questions wrong.

Take this poll for example:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll responses by party ID.pdf

In here it says most Republicans believe Obama wasn't born in the US and that Iraq had WMD when we invaded. Other polls show that Republicans disproportionately believe cutting taxes increases revenue, that there is no scientific consensus on climate change, etc.

Now all of a sudden the GOP is woefully misinformed, right? Not really any more misinformed than anyone else. The questions are just ones that have answers Republicans don't like.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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Why did you choose a poll from 2010?

What you will actually find if you look into the issue more is that people are consistently misinformed about political information they don't like. If you look at November 2010, most of the news was bad for Democrats, so they get more questions wrong.

Take this poll for example:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll responses by party ID.pdf

In here it says most Republicans believe Obama wasn't born in the US and that Iraq had WMD when we invaded. Other polls show that Republicans disproportionately believe cutting taxes increases revenue, that there is no scientific consensus on climate change, etc.

Now all of a sudden the GOP is woefully misinformed, right? Not really any more misinformed than anyone else. The questions are just ones that have answers Republicans don't like.

Whereas more than half of democrats believe Bush knew about 9/11.

Given the content of this thread, that doesn't surprise me at all.

EDIT: I was wrong. It's not more than half. It hovers between 30 and 40%.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Whereas more than half of democrats believe Bush knew about 9/11.

Given the content of this thread, that doesn't surprise me at all.

Sure!

Pick your topic and if it's politicized you will usually see increased wrongness in the party on the wrong side of the facts.

EDIT: It doesn't have to be a majority, but I bet it's higher than the US average.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Why did you choose a poll from 2010?

What you will actually find if you look into the issue more is that people are consistently misinformed about political information they don't like. If you look at November 2010, most of the news was bad for Democrats, so they get more questions wrong.

Take this poll for example:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll responses by party ID.pdf

In here it says most Republicans believe Obama wasn't born in the US and that Iraq had WMD when we invaded. Other polls show that Republicans disproportionately believe cutting taxes increases revenue, that there is no scientific consensus on climate change, etc.

Now all of a sudden the GOP is woefully misinformed, right? Not really any more misinformed than anyone else. The questions are just ones that have answers Republicans don't like.
Pew polls are relatively unbiased in my opinion. However, I do admire the blatant bias of the Dartmouth poll you linked which selectively loads the questions. For some curious reason, it somehow missed asking such questions as "Bush had prior knowledge of 9/11" or "Rich people don't pay taxes". Awesome poll!
 
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Oct 16, 1999
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0
Sure!

Pick your topic and if it's politicized you will usually see increased wrongness in the party on the wrong side of the facts.

EDIT: It doesn't have to be a majority, but I bet it's higher than the US average.

You can't really equate "misinformed" when one is belief in the unsubstantiated vs. the other belief in the verifiabley false.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Pew polls are relatively unbiased in my opined.

I agree they are unbiased. That's not particularly relevant to my point, however.

However, I do admire how the Dartmouth poll you linked selectively loads the questions though. I somehow missed questions like "Bush had prior knowledge of 9/11" and "Rich people don't pay taxes". Awesome poll!

This is also not at all relevant to my point. Do you understand what I wrote? Those are simply some of many examples of Republicans believing demonstrably wrong things because it conflicts with their ideology. If you would like I can bury you under polls of Republicans denying climate change, thinking Obama wasn't born in the US, thinking Iraq had WMDs when we invaded even today, etc, etc. Surely you don't dispute that Republicans hold disproportionately wrong opinions about those facts. If you would read the thread you would see that I already agreed with Atreus that Democrats do the same thing about ideologically inconvenient information.

In fact, that's the whole point: people are more likely to believe wrong things when it conflicts with their political ideology. This is not unique to either political party, it just varies by topic. I imagine if you polled Republicans about who won the 2006 elections you would see a shift the other way. This selective wrongness about inconvenient information is a fixture in American political thought, regardless of political party.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I agree they are unbiased. That's not particularly relevant to my point, however.



This is also not at all relevant to my point. Do you understand what I wrote? Those are simply some of many examples of Republicans believing demonstrably wrong things because it conflicts with their ideology. If you would like I can bury you under polls of Republicans denying climate change, thinking Obama wasn't born in the US, thinking Iraq had WMDs when we invaded even today, etc, etc. Surely you don't dispute that Republicans hold disproportionately wrong opinions about those facts. If you would read the thread you would see that I already agreed with Atreus that Democrats do the same thing about ideologically inconvenient information.

In fact, that's the whole point: people are more likely to believe wrong things when it conflicts with their political ideology. This is not unique to either political party, it just varies by topic. I imagine if you polled Republicans about who won the 2006 elections you would see a shift the other way. This selective wrongness about inconvenient information is a fixture in American political thought, regardless of political party.
Both Republicans and Democrats hold disproportionately wrong opinions about facts when faced with ideologically inconvenient information. Such is the human condition. However, my point was that Republicans are generally better informed than Democrats.

pew-news-iq11.png
 
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