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BMW's front-wheel drive car spied

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What? I quoted your post that was responding to this:

Originally Posted by Monster_Munch
The most popular BMWs in the UK (and probably the rest of Europe) are all 4 cylinder engines. The 1 and 3 series sell loads of 1.8 litre turbodiesels, hardly the most exciting engines in the world, but people like the fuel

You were saying that there's no point in buying a BMW with a 1.8L diesel engine and you might as well buy a Fiesta. What I'm saying is that the 1.8L BMW is still RWD and fun to drive.

Derp; self owned sorry lol. Anyway I still wouldn't consider a car with a 1.8L diesel an enthusiast car whether or not it was RWD, but point taken.
 
I do appreciate the handling of a RWD car. It's just that the dynamics generally aren't appreciable on a daily basis...certainly not on my daily commute and definitely not when my wife is chauffering clients around.

For my daily commute FWD is "just as good". Honestly, fuel efficiency, comfort, and technology/entertainment are way more important than handling dynamics during the 10 hours a week I spend commuting. If I'm going to do a few runs on Palomar Mountain I'll just take my motorcycle and enjoy the dynamics of a very rewarding vehicle.

What good is an M3 or a Corvette when you're stuck in stop and go traffic? When was the last time you did a Clarkson powerslide in your vehicle on public roads?

My neighbor had a Corvette a couple years ago, he turned the traction control off once and oversteered right into a curb.

I oversteer my Jeep almost daily. Same when I had a Miata, and when I had a 240sx.
 
Derp; self owned sorry lol. Anyway I still wouldn't consider a car with a 1.8L diesel an enthusiast car whether or not it was RWD, but point taken.

It's actually a 2.0 diesel, and it's available with twin turbos, 204hp and more torque than an M3. Even our single turbo unit has 180hp and only 10lbs less torque than my M3.
 
I'm sure he knew which wheels were being driven. He simply made a mistake and over corrected or under corrected. It's easy to do with a powerful RWD vehicle and you switch the TC off. The internet is full of videos of people doing it. Are all of them idiots? Or bad drivers? They certainly used poor judgement, no doubt prompted by those controlled power slides they see professional drivers do on a closed course on TV.

Well those professional drivers do it in a flat open area with no curbs or trees for a good reason 😀
 
Well those professional drivers do it in a flat open area with no curbs or trees for a good reason 😀
Ha, exactly. It's not like they don't make mistakes when drfting or powersliding, they just don't have such a huge penalty for messing up. 😎
 
It's actually a 2.0 diesel, and it's available with twin turbos, 204hp and more torque than an M3. Even our single turbo unit has 180hp and only 10lbs less torque than my M3.

Yeah sorry I was confused by the 118d naming scheme. I always thought it was engine capacity, but it's obviously not as simple as that.
 
Yeah sorry I was confused by the 118d naming scheme. I always thought it was engine capacity, but it's obviously not as simple as that.
Yeah the 116d, 118d, 120d & 123d are essentially the same 2.0l engine in different states of tune, with the 123d having a twin-turbo setup.
 
I oversteer my Jeep almost daily. Same when I had a Miata, and when I had a 240sx.

:thumbsup:

I find it really strange how many so called driving enthusiasts cannot or do not enjoy flirting with a little rear end drift around corners. I've always thought that it is the most fun you can have driving.

This is why I really do not get why everyone is opting for 19" wheels and insanely sticky tires on their sporty cars. It's impossible to over-steer a car like that at legal speeds and just takes all the fun out of driving.

The last car I owned I actually swapped out the 16" wheels that came with it for 15" factory wheels from a lower end model so I could get less grip and cheaper tires. One of the few mods I will make to my cars is adding a rear sway bar to get more neutral handling.

I still think out of the most fun cars I've driven is a early 90s Nissan pickup. It was the biggest piece of crap you could imagine, but the combination of no grip, manual steering and a propensity to over-steer like crazy made it a ton of fun to drive at very slow speeds.
 
:thumbsup:

I find it really strange how many so called driving enthusiasts cannot or do not enjoy flirting with a little rear end drift around corners. I've always thought that it is the most fun you can have driving.

This is why I really do not get why everyone is opting for 19" wheels and insanely sticky tires on their sporty cars. It's impossible to over-steer a car like that at legal speeds and just takes all the fun out of driving.

The last car I owned I actually swapped out the 16" wheels that came with it for 15" factory wheels from a lower end model so I could get less grip and cheaper tires. One of the few mods I will make to my cars is adding a rear sway bar to get more neutral handling.

I still think out of the most fun cars I've driven is a early 90s Nissan pickup. It was the biggest piece of crap you could imagine, but the combination of no grip, manual steering and a propensity to over-steer like crazy made it a ton of fun to drive at very slow speeds.

Yeah I think it's weird how enthusiasts convince themselves that having fun doesn't matter when you're commuting to work so they buy FWD automatic cars. OK, if you're driving an economy car and getting 40mpg it makes sense... But a Maxima? It has 265hp and gets the same gas mileage as a musclecar. Why not go with the musclecar?
 
Yeah I think it's weird how enthusiasts convince themselves that having fun doesn't matter when you're commuting to work so they buy FWD automatic cars. OK, if you're driving an economy car and getting 40mpg it makes sense... But a Maxima? It has 265hp and gets the same gas mileage as a musclecar. Why not go with the musclecar?

🙄 I had a newborn baby when I bought the Maxima. I bought it because it has decent power, good reliability, and room for a family.

A Lotus Elise isn't the most practical family car but I'd still take it over any muscle car any day of the week.
 
🙄 I had a newborn baby when I bought the Maxima. I bought it because it has decent power, good reliability, and room for a family.

A Lotus Elise isn't the most practical family car but I'd still take it over any muscle car any day of the week.

I think your newborn baby would have preferred RWD
 
WOW, 80% of BMW 1 series drivers think their cars are FWD http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...s-owners-think-their-car-is-front-wheel-drive

How can you not know whether your car is FWD or RWD? I mean, old ladies driving Buicks, I'd expect them not to know or care. But these are BMW sport sedans.
Probably because of traction control. FWD without traction control on snow/ice will understeer a little but nothing dramatic happens. RWD without traction control on snow/ice will completely spin around if you hit the gas at the wrong time. Their RWD car with traction control feels a lot closer to the first one. Traction control also makes it impossible to do donuts and other things associated with RWD. Most people never turn off the traction control, so the only thing left to tell you how the car drives is torque steer.


I don't really get RWD cars. It's not like it's a luxury or anything. They're just as bad in snow as FWD, some people claim they are actually worse. They weight more, they cost more, they generally have worse gas mileage, and it's all for nothing. AWD is a luxury. AWD has more traction, better acceleration, better handling. AWD makes sense. BMW should be AWD.
 
Probably because of traction control. FWD without traction control on snow/ice will understeer a little but nothing dramatic happens. RWD without traction control on snow/ice will completely spin around if you hit the gas at the wrong time. Their RWD car with traction control feels a lot closer to the first one. Traction control also makes it impossible to do donuts and other things associated with RWD. Most people never turn off the traction control, so the only thing left to tell you how the car drives is torque steer.


I don't really get RWD cars. It's not like it's a luxury or anything. They're just as bad in snow as FWD, some people claim they are actually worse. They weight more, they cost more, they generally have worse gas mileage, and it's all for nothing. AWD is a luxury. AWD has more traction, better acceleration, better handling. AWD makes sense. BMW should be AWD.

RWD handles better because of oversteer. You apply throttle while steering and it steers more instead of less. That feels good and it's the reason sports cars are RWD. AWD doesn't handle and feel as good unless it's biased to the rear. Most AWD cars aren't even symmetrical, they're FWD until the front wheels slip, which meas you're already understeering.
 
RWD handles better because of oversteer. You apply throttle while steering and it steers more instead of less. That feels good and it's the reason sports cars are RWD. AWD doesn't handle and feel as good unless it's biased to the rear. Most AWD cars aren't even symmetrical, they're FWD until the front wheels slip, which meas you're already understeering.

It also doesn't suffer from torque steer, something that ALL front wheel drive vehicles suffer from. RWD is great because the front does the steering and the rear does the driving. Simple, easy to feel what the car is doing, and predictable, at least until you induce power oversteer, then it can be a handful.
 
I can oversteer my 95 Camry 4 cyl. Just stand up on the brakes while taking a hard turn down an off ramp at 80 mph 😀 Weight transfer, no weight on the rear, and 195 all seasons you can cut a pizza with, combined with 4 worn struts :awe:
 
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RWD handles better because of oversteer. You apply throttle while steering and it steers more instead of less. That feels good and it's the reason sports cars are RWD. AWD doesn't handle and feel as good unless it's biased to the rear. Most AWD cars aren't even symmetrical, they're FWD until the front wheels slip, which meas you're already understeering.

Most all RWD cars with IRS with adjustable toe are bump steered to push the rear toward the inside of a turn as the car leans into the outside of a corner. eg understeer.

This is to keep the avg idiot from wrapping the car around a tree driving to work. When you have alot of power it becomes outright dangerous. The handling becomes unpredictable as the car leans into the turn and the toe changes under suspension lean cause the rear to understeer making the rear feel planted, then application of throttle breaks traction and inertia causes a sudden reversal to oversteer. This confidence inspiring understeer followed by throttle induced snap over steer is responsible for nearly all those youtube videos of people going off road.

Zeroing out the factory bump steer in the IRS Cobras makes it 100 times more predictable and linear. Managing a "accidental" power slide is much easier when your ass end feels weighed to the outside from the start and you know where your break point is.

Also effortless to recover from when there is no sudden unpredictable change in inertia; simply lighten up on the throttle to reel in your sliding without any shift in the suspension loading.

If you do that in a RWD car designed to understeer as they are from the factory, that's when you get the lift off oversteer and fishtailing as the grip reconnects and violently reloads the suspension back into bump steer induced understeer while you are in the middle of counter steering. Bad.

You can also cause a RWD car to understeer by engineering for specific front to rear staggered tire sizes with diff tread and compound. If you have unlimited grip in the rear and none in the front, it won't matter if you are in the throttle, you will plow front first into the curb.

Bottom line, it doesn't make a diff to avg Joe in a stock car. Unless you tuned the suspension yourself, you can't make general assumptions about whether a car will understeer or oversteer based solely on its drive train layout.
 
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RWD handles better because of oversteer. You apply throttle while steering and it steers more instead of less. That feels good and it's the reason sports cars are RWD. AWD doesn't handle and feel as good unless it's biased to the rear. Most AWD cars aren't even symmetrical, they're FWD until the front wheels slip, which meas you're already understeering.
Should have bought a Subaru ^_^

AWD in luxury vehicles is usually pretty good. You really do get what you pay for. I don't see why BMW can't join the bandwagon with Lexus, Acura, and Audi
 
Most all RWD cars with IRS with adjustable toe are bump steered to push the rear toward the inside of a turn as the car leans into the outside of a corner. eg understeer.

This is to keep the avg idiot from wrapping the car around a tree driving to work. When you have alot of power it becomes outright dangerous. The handling becomes unpredictable as the car leans into the turn and the toe changes under suspension lean cause the rear to understeer making the rear feel planted, then application of throttle breaks traction and inertia causes a sudden reversal to oversteer. This confidence inspiring understeer followed by throttle induced snap over steer is responsible for nearly all those youtube videos of people going off road.

Zeroing out the factory bump steer in the IRS Cobras makes it 100 times more predictable and linear. Managing a "accidental" power slide is much easier when your ass end feels weighed to the outside and you know where your break curtailing point is.

Also effortless to recover from when there is no sudden unpredictable change in inertia; simply lighten up on the throttle to reel in your sliding. If you do that in a RWD car designed to understeer as they are from the factory, that's when you get the lift off oversteer and fishtailing as the grip reconnects and violently reloads the suspension back into bump steer induced understeer while you are in the middle of counter steering. Bad.

You can also cause a RWD car to understeer by engineering for specific front to rear staggered tire sizes with diff tread and compound. If you have unlimited grip in the rear and none in the front, it won't matter if you are in the throttle, you will plow front first into the curb.

Bottom line, it doesn't make a diff to avg Joe in a stock car. Unless you tuned the suspension yourself, you can't make general assumptions about whether a car will understeer or oversteer based solely on its drive train layout.

Which is why these cars have traction control from the factory to help prevent people from their own stupidity.

This is also similar to what happens when you highside a motorcycle. Rear steps out either under braking or throttle and suddenly regains traction either because the rider let off the locked rear brake or chopped the throttle under acceleration. The bike suddenly straightens out and flips the rider off violently.
 
I can oversteer my 95 Camry 4 cyl. Just stand up on the brakes while taking a hard turn down an off ramp at 80 mph 😀 Weight transfer, no weight on the rear, and 195 all seasons you can cut a pizza with, combined with 4 worn struts :awe:

Snap oversteer and it's pretty scary. A lot of people with FWD vehicles make that mistake when the car starts to understeer going into a turn and they over brake trying to correct it.
 
Most all RWD cars with IRS with adjustable toe are bump steered to push the rear toward the inside of a turn as the car leans into the outside of a corner. eg understeer.

This is to keep the avg idiot from wrapping the car around a tree driving to work. When you have alot of power it becomes outright dangerous. The handling becomes unpredictable as the car leans into the turn and the toe changes under suspension lean cause the rear to understeer making the rear feel planted, then application of throttle breaks traction and inertia causes a sudden reversal to oversteer. This confidence inspiring understeer followed by throttle induced snap over steer is responsible for nearly all those youtube videos of people going off road.

Zeroing out the factory bump steer in the IRS Cobras makes it 100 times more predictable and linear. Managing a "accidental" power slide is much easier when your ass end feels weighed to the outside from the start and you know where your break point is.

Also effortless to recover from when there is no sudden unpredictable change in inertia; simply lighten up on the throttle to reel in your sliding without any shift in the suspension loading.

If you do that in a RWD car designed to understeer as they are from the factory, that's when you get the lift off oversteer and fishtailing as the grip reconnects and violently reloads the suspension back into bump steer induced understeer while you are in the middle of counter steering. Bad.

You can also cause a RWD car to understeer by engineering for specific front to rear staggered tire sizes with diff tread and compound. If you have unlimited grip in the rear and none in the front, it won't matter if you are in the throttle, you will plow front first into the curb.

Bottom line, it doesn't make a diff to avg Joe in a stock car. Unless you tuned the suspension yourself, you can't make general assumptions about whether a car will understeer or oversteer based solely on its drive train layout.

I haven't not seen a single modern powerful RWD car that will not over steer when stability control is turned off. The only exclusion that I could think of is the Challenger and Charger.
 
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