~Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD~

[Reckoner]

Due to the ridiculous protection schemes that are hindering BOTH camps technology, I hope they both fail.

 

[Aquila76]

Originally posted by: VanillaH

Originally posted by: Aquila76

Originally posted by: WobbleWobble

The difference between Blu-ray and HD DVD is the size of the aperture used on the optical pick-up head inside drives and players. Blu-ray uses a 0.85 aperture whereas HD DVDs only use a 0.65 aperture. Finally compare that to current DVDs? 0.6 aperture. The reason these are different is because of the surface layer of the actual discs. Their thickness limits the effectiveness of the laser due to optical effects.

Can someone reword that to something I might be able to understand?

Blu-ray uses a narrower laser than HD-DVD because Blu-ray's data layers are closer to the bottom of the disc. The thicker the plastic between the bottom of the disc and the data layer, the easier for the laser to get 'warped' and misread the data.

Doesnt that also make them more relatively scratch-prone? Or so I was told at another place, maybe its all speculations at this point. With over 15gb, I would be more concerned about durability than a bit more storage if that really is the case though.

Blu-ray gets over that by using a different type of plastic that is highly scratch resistant, almost scratch proof. You would have to literally stab at it with an X-acto knife or something to scratch it.

 

[Kelemvor]

You need an optoin for "I DON'T CARE. Just Pick One!"

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

There are nearly 20 companies on the Blu-ray board of directors. All of which have/had a hand in designing the spec. This is not Sony versus the world.Link

I still won't stand by anything Sony supports, given their prior transgressions. If it wins, I may fold but that wasnt what the OP asked.

Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD use AACS as their core security. Blu-ray has BD+ on top of AACS as additional security. Care to explain how BD+ works (with links too, if possible) and how it's more draconian than just AACS alone?

You need to do a lot more reading on this. AACS is the core security for HD but not for BD. Read Here

Are you talking about manufacturing costs, re-tooling costs, blank media, players, what? Be more specific. There are already prices announced for BD media. Have any HD-DVD manufacturers announced prices for blank discs yet? No?

All of the above. Once again read more on the link above

You're right, this is a tech board, which is why many of us hope the format with the higher capacity wins!

Yes, I'm shocked because it seems so many don't really know what there talking about. I don't see how a little more space is more important then all the other reasons I gave. Hating Sony, thats just a personal preference. However, the costs are a significant reason to support HD and so is the HDCP and heavier encryption for BD.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

Originally posted by: Aquila76
I agree completely with all your points. I honestly hope that they can reach some compromise, but I doubt that's gonna happen. Sony and their constant 'rape the consumer of any possible freedom to use their purchased content/media' proprietary format bullsh1t can suck it. Almost no one uses their prior formats, hopefully this trend continues.

Both formats support Mandatory Managed Copy as defined in AACS. If you think you will be able to freely burn and distribute discs using either format, I think you are in for a reality check.

Do you even know what AACS is?? Its the copy protection thats already been broken, like I said you need to read more about it. Its not the primary portection on BD. It is, however, on HD.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Do you even know what AACS is?? Its the copy protection thats already been broken, like I said you need to read more about it. Its not the primary portection on BD. It is, however, on HD.

Already been broken? Dare to provide even a single link? Why would HD-DVD and Blu-ray release a format based on a security model that is already cracked.:roll:

 

[dawks]

Originally posted by: AMDZen
HD-DVD.

a) Because Sony is the epitome of evil and everything they do, they do for furthering their own agenda and owning the rights on every propriatary format in the world.

b) Because the DRM scheme on BR is much more invasive and unfriendly to the consumer.

c) Because the cost of BR over HD is immense, and it will be a lot longer before BR is affordable. The manufacturers will make consumers pay for longer.

It shocks me to see that a tech board would rather see more expensive media, and more DRM in a format all for a bit more space. 15-20 GB on a disc is plenty and more then good enough for 2-3 hrs worth of HD content.

:thumbsup: for a good post.

I think it might almost become necessary for government intervention. If both players/formats start showing up on the market, this will be an absolute sh!t show. At least until we get cheap burners/players that can handle both formats with ease. Like to the point we are at now with DVD +/-. But if we continue on the path with two different formats, it will be a long and costly ride till we stabilize with multi-read/burn units.


Edit: I also thought that article was very one sided. While it stated many features of Blu-ray, it failed to mention that HD-DVD will have many of the same or similar features.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed

Originally posted by: AMDZen
Do you even know what AACS is?? Its the copy protection thats already been broken, like I said you need to read more about it. Its not the primary portection on BD. It is, however, on HD.

Already been broken? Dare to provide even a single link? Why would HD-DVD and Blu-ray release a format based on a security model that is already cracked.:roll:

Did you even bother reading the link I already gave you??

Its not a wide known thing that AACS is already broken, but if you look around you will see that this is the reason Sony started the experimental security feature BD+ that allows for dynamically changing encryption schemes.

Basically, should the encryption (AACS) be compromised, manufacturers can update the encryption scheme and put it on all new discs, preventing a single crack from opening up the entire specification for the duration of its lifetime.

They did this after a device out of taiwan was leaked that worked to bypass the HDCP within HDMI cables.

HD-DVD's won't have the BD+ technology so once its broken (which on the hardware side already has been) then they won't be able to keep changing it.

EDIT: to clarify my post a bit. AACS isn't necessarily already broken on the software (media) side of things, at least officially. However I have heard rumors that Sony themselves broke it and thats what prompted the BD+. But if it is (as was CSS with DVD) then it will be broken forever. BD+ on Blue-Ray will make it so the corporations are always one step ahead of the crackers/hackers.

 

[BillyBatson]

i went for HDdvd then wentfor HDdvd again
in the long ruin it will sae me and many others lots of $
i also have 180 dvds in my colelction

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: dawks

Originally posted by: AMDZen
HD-DVD.

a) Because Sony is the epitome of evil and everything they do, they do for furthering their own agenda and owning the rights on every propriatary format in the world.

b) Because the DRM scheme on BR is much more invasive and unfriendly to the consumer.

c) Because the cost of BR over HD is immense, and it will be a lot longer before BR is affordable. The manufacturers will make consumers pay for longer.

It shocks me to see that a tech board would rather see more expensive media, and more DRM in a format all for a bit more space. 15-20 GB on a disc is plenty and more then good enough for 2-3 hrs worth of HD content.

:thumbsup: for a good post.

I think it might almost become necessary for government intervention. If both players/formats start showing up on the market, this will be an absolute sh!t show. At least until we get cheap burners/players that can handle both formats with ease. Like to the point we are at now with DVD +/-. But if we continue on the path with two different formats, it will be a long and costly ride till we stabilize with multi-read/burn units.


Edit: I also thought that article was very one sided. While it stated many features of Blu-ray, it failed to mention that HD-DVD will have many of the same or similar features.

It is already guaranteed to be a sh*t show. EVERYONE is going to lose money on this. The manufacturers, the studios, the retail stores, the consumers, and all of the companies behind them.

The manufacturers will lose money because people will be loath to buy one format or the other, and the market for their product is essentially split in half for those who do buy. There are going to be MASSIVE returns for people with non-HDCP hardware.

The studios are going to lose money (arguably) by splitting their market as well. Possible backlash against the draconian security schemes. Although they have less to fear than the other players, since they just make the discs, and can switch to the winner.

The retail stores are going to take the brunt of the consumer backlash, when their dumb ass salesman dont explain it right, people cant use them properly on any HDTV etc - they are already unhappy, and are only going to sell them both because selling one or neither would be suicide.

The companies creating the format and manufacturing the tech are obviously going to lose money as they are fighting an uphill battle which is essentially unnecessary. There WILL be a price war between the two formats because for all intents and purposes, they are identical. NO ONE but the biggest geek is going to give two sh*ts of a care which has more data when BOTH hold the same movie in full high def, with PLENTY of room to spare.

The consumers are going to lose money when they are stuck with a player that doesnt work when one format eventually wins. And that will leave a VERY bad taste in their mouth for any of the studios and manufacturers who made their obsolete equipment at hundreds of dollars.

And only one of them will win. One of them HAS TO win. The market will only support one format. It only has since the beginning of time, and it only will in the future.

In the end the most important factor is price. Because for all intents and purposes, to the average consumer, they are essentially identical.

And that is why HD-DVD will win. It WILL be cheaper. Doubting this is ridiculous. Everything about it is less expensive than blu-ray. Any economy of scale that brings blu-ray down in price will do the same for HD-DVD. HD-DVD also has KILLER name recongition.

Name recognition + Happy DVD manufacturers who dont have to retool their entire factory + + Less DRM + Lower price = Win. I would bet thousands of dollars on it.

The only way blu-ray can survive is if somehow, someway, they make dual format players, which will give consumers the choice to choose between an excellent bitrate, excellently priced disc or pay more for a higher bitrate.

That being said, blu-ray is clearly the superior tech, undoubtedly, but I could not honestly care less. Dual layer HD-DVDs will hold FAR FAR MORE than enough space for tons of HD content. Id rather pay less, even if it is a dollar less.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Son of a N00b

Originally posted by: jndietz

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I voted randomly in both polls just to screw with you

Without the public release of either format, it is impossible to determine their reliability, cost, and a WIDE range of other factors. Predicting a winner or choosing a favorite is like making a poll in which only 10 people are polled and claiming that it is a fair representation of a country's opinions.

You can have facts released by the industry and select hardware experts to help you make this decision, but only 10% of the data is there. We need a release of both products before anything can be said. What if there is some fundamental flaw in one of them that has gone unidentified?

Hopefully this is no worse than the DVD+-R war and there are eventually inexpensive combo players. I would vote for Blu-Ray if only for the higher data capacity (data backups), but I want more data.

Yay for childish morons who cannot grasp what the poll is for!

What is more childish than your silly name-calling? You don't seem to understand the point of my post. Here, allow me to draw it out for you in crayon.

Everyone is voting randomly because no one has the facts necessary to draw a good conclusion. There are relatively few known facts, and you can count on both companies hiding little details that may drag down the public opinion of their format. Look at the video card industry; there's rampant cheating on both sides, and no one really knows anything until 3rd parties run tests.

(Edit: And even then, one can never be sure. Anandtech and Tomshardware are widely considered to be trustworthy sources, but different cards work better in different circumstances. The case should be the same for these format wars)

Do you understand now? Your poll was useless from the start. The quality of the article was good, and discussion is good, but reading one article is unlikely to change anyone's opinion since all opinions on the format war are pretty much faith-based. Eventually we will have reliable information from 3rd parties with working players available to all consumers.

Look up the word irony in a dictionary

nope you still fail to grasp the point. Me laughs at you Read the OP better

 

[SVT Cobra]

Hmm the results are a bit skewed, but I think more votes would help.

Thanks everyone for the great discussion going on!

 

[KamiXkaze]

I'm all for HD-DVD only because it is cheaper and no DRM crap. but here is the problem back in the beta vs VHS wars we keep forgeting that sony did not own a major movie studio nor had a game system. Fast forward to today and you can see where this is going so Blu-ray may have the edge when the PS3 comes out and floods the market.

KxK

 

[Schadenfroh]

I am hoping for a bluray win, but I am not buying untill I get an HDTV and there is a clear winner.

 

[middlehead]

:music:Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right
here I am, stuck in the middle with you:music:

 

[bersl2]

They both suck.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

Don't care right now and not buying into either any time soon.

 

[YoshiSato]

Screw both!!

Go with the holographic DVD. 800GB - 1.62TBs per disk and is CHEAPER than a hard drive.

The only problem is holographic writers currently cost 10Gs a piece but if people would get of BlueRay and HD the prices would come down a LOT

 

[archcommus]

As the author said himself, screw both, I'm sticking to HDDs and flash. I rarely use discs for anything except for some secondary backup, and I'm not too excited about HD movies either because the biggest screen I use is a 19" LCD.

So...I'll sit back and watch.

 

[Philippine Mango]

Originally posted by: YoshiSato
Screw both!!

Go with the holographic DVD. 800GB - 1.62TBs per disk and is CHEAPER than a hard drive.

The only problem is holographic writers currently cost 10Gs a piece but if people would get of BlueRay and HD the prices would come down a LOT

Can't wait for holographic disks, problem is they're not backward compatible with CDs...

 

[SGtheArtist]

biostud

I stand next to the debate and point fingers as both formats fail.

I believe you are correct.

1) Most people don't own displays that have high enough resolutions for them to see the increased picture quality of HD DVD or BR. These same people do not have surround sound speaker systems that will allow them to hear the difference between the current DVDs and the HD DVDs or BR.

Most people don't care if DRM is used or not, BUT if it downscales the movie if you don't have the correct equipment, this adds to the fact that people will not see the difference between HD DVD or BR and the current DVDs.

2) Cost will prevent most of this consumer segment from buying HD DVD or BR disc's at $25-$35 each. These consumers will be happy with purchasing the current DVDs from Walmart at $10-$15 each.

Enthusiast can debate HD DVD & BR all day but at the end of this format war the winner (if any) will be the format that can show an improvement over DVD worthy of the cost to upgrade the customers display, player & DVD library at an acceptable price.

I personally do not think that the consumers and the HD DVD or BR camps will ever reach this threshold.

I hope Blu-ray wins because it technically better.
If anyone wins it will be HD DVD because its quicker to the market & cheaper.

FTW neither wins, & we stick with DVD for another decade.

 

[eflat]

What kind of computer nerds are you people?

25GB > 15GB


That is almost twice the capacity folks!! A lot more useful for computer storage.

 

[EKKC]

whichever one has cheaper blank media, and faster to burn.

 

[conehead433]

I won't be investing in either until I can burn HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs.

 

[SpunkyJones]

I'll wait in the corner till this is done. i don't feel a rush to jump onto either format yet.