Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD (old)

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Logically, you could game those same movies on HD-DVD if you didn't support BR.

No, because that's not logical. No studio is ever going to be influenced by my 1 player and 17 movies purchased.

I only bought a player once I felt confident enough that one side was going to win, no matter which side it was. I personally have nothing against HD DVD the format, but the rest of the world is choosing Blu-ray in larger percentages, and the extra capacity is just a bonus. I'm happy with my purchase.

Great attitude...I am sure there are a hundred thousand other people who think the same way. Apathy at its best.

Your opinion and purchasing power is only worth as much as you choose to exercise it, much like voting. Keep minimizing yourself, it certainly helps you and everybody else.

You're grasping again. I don't know what else to say besides just laugh? :laugh: Purchasing luxury items can be compared with voting?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Logically, you could game those same movies on HD-DVD if you didn't support BR.

No, because that's not logical. No studio is ever going to be influenced by my 1 player and 17 movies purchased.

I only bought a player once I felt confident enough that one side was going to win, no matter which side it was. I personally have nothing against HD DVD the format, but the rest of the world is choosing Blu-ray in larger percentages, and the extra capacity is just a bonus. I'm happy with my purchase.

Great attitude...I am sure there are a hundred thousand other people who think the same way. Apathy at its best.

Your opinion and purchasing power is only worth as much as you choose to exercise it, much like voting. Keep minimizing yourself, it certainly helps you and everybody else.

You're grasping again. I don't know what else to say besides just laugh? :laugh: Purchasing luxury items can be compared with voting?

It has nothing to do with grasping. It's merely a statement that if you don't support what is correct then what is correct won't succeed.

Less DRM is what is correct, yet people don't want to "vote" for it. Then, people think they won't make a difference, so they either don't vote, or they just buy what looks "ok" and not what's right.

Do you really think that if the voters in this campaign said "screw this crooked candidate" the studios would just stop next-gen products?

Really...

If you can't understand a simple analogy it's not my fault, perhaps you missed that grade.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Great attitude...I am sure there are a hundred thousand other people who think the same way. Apathy at its best.

Your opinion and purchasing power is only worth as much as you choose to exercise it, much like voting. Keep minimizing yourself, it certainly helps you and everybody else.

You're grasping again. I don't know what else to say besides just laugh? :laugh: Purchasing luxury items can be compared with voting?

It has nothing to do with grasping. It's merely a statement that if you don't support what is correct then what is correct won't succeed.

Less DRM is what is correct, yet people don't want to "vote" for it. Then, people think they won't make a difference, so they either don't vote, or they just buy what looks "ok" and not what's right.

Do you really think that if the voters in this campaign said "screw this crooked candidate" the studios would just stop next-gen products?

Really...

If you can't understand a simple analogy it's not my fault, perhaps you missed that grade.

I vote for what is correct.

I purchase for what I want.

You're so wound up with this "I hate Sony" attitude I don't think you even know what DRM means anymore. You obviously don't, because you're purchasing a product heavily backed by Microsoft - which is a huge supporter of closed products and DRM.



DRM - Digital Rights Management. Control over what you can and cannot do with a digital product. The only difference in this respect is that Blu-ray allows the studios to add regional codes if they so choose. BD+ is only an added enforcer of DRM against unlicensed copying, of which both formats do not allow with AACS as an enforcer.

Other than regional codes, when I purchase my Blu-ray movie, I am able to play it in any Blu-ray player at any time with no limit on the number of plays. I am able to purchase a used disc, I am able to sell off an unwanted disc.

We are yet to see how either side is going to handle managed copies, so that point gets thrown out for now.



Like I say, you're grasping for any last shred of an argument and hope it sticks. This argument doesn't. Try again.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Great attitude...I am sure there are a hundred thousand other people who think the same way. Apathy at its best.

Your opinion and purchasing power is only worth as much as you choose to exercise it, much like voting. Keep minimizing yourself, it certainly helps you and everybody else.

You're grasping again. I don't know what else to say besides just laugh? :laugh: Purchasing luxury items can be compared with voting?

It has nothing to do with grasping. It's merely a statement that if you don't support what is correct then what is correct won't succeed.

Less DRM is what is correct, yet people don't want to "vote" for it. Then, people think they won't make a difference, so they either don't vote, or they just buy what looks "ok" and not what's right.

Do you really think that if the voters in this campaign said "screw this crooked candidate" the studios would just stop next-gen products?

Really...

If you can't understand a simple analogy it's not my fault, perhaps you missed that grade.

Still grasping. You've got nothing else left to argue, so you're trying to wedge in any last shred you can find hoping it will stick.

I vote for what is correct.

I purchase for what I want.

You're so wound up with this "I hate Sony" attitude I don't think you even know what DRM means anymore. You obviously don't, because you're purchasing a product heavily backed by Microsoft - which is a huge supporter of closed products and DRM.

One evil is lesser than the other. I have a lot more to go on, but you refuse to listen. There's not much point.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
One evil is lesser than the other. I have a lot more to go on, but you refuse to listen. There's not much point.

Still grasping.

Present an argument that is not full of holes.

Your whole argument from post #1 is "I hate Sony", and it has not changed from then until this latest post of yours. It is solely based on an opinion that others do not share. You will always lose this argument.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
One evil is lesser than the other. I have a lot more to go on, but you refuse to listen. There's not much point.

Your entire argument boils down to, "DRM is ok as long as it's on my format." You really are grasping for anything to throw stones at Blu-Ray over because you see the format you invested in collapsing under your feet. It's illegal to copy both formats. BD+ will be cracked in a matter of time at which point your sole argument is moot. For the time being, do you really want to be ripping 50GB discs? For what reason? Inferior compressed copies?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
One evil is lesser than the other. I have a lot more to go on, but you refuse to listen. There's not much point.

Your entire argument boils down to, "DRM is ok as long as it's on my format." You really are grasping for anything to throw stones at Blu-Ray over because you see the format you invested in collapsing under your feet. It's illegal to copy both formats. BD+ will be cracked in a matter of time at which point your sole argument is moot. For the time being, do you really want to be ripping 50GB discs? For what reason? Inferior compressed copies?

My problem with Blu-Ray is manyfold. From the draconian drm to the half-assed implemented players, to it's expense, all of the way to the non-standard format. That it's supported by sony only makes it worse.

 

[mcturkey]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

My problem with Blu-Ray is manyfold. From the draconian drm to the half-assed implemented players, to it's expense, all of the way to the non-standard format. That it's supported by sony only makes it worse.

I'll state my bias upfront: I very severely dislike Sony because of DRM, poor manufacturing quality, and shear arrogance with the creation, release, and marketing of the PS3.

Now, HD-DVD uses draconian DRM and is a non-standard format, so if you will kindly cease using either of those as an argument against BR, it would be greatly appreciated by all.

HD-DVD is only less expensive than BR right now because of BR doing better in the sales race. I can assure you we would NOT be seeing $200 HD players if BR weren't out there. The only thing driving player prices down right now is the competition. As long as HD stays in the fight, BR players will continue to get cheaper (though admittedly they still have a ways to go before many people will consider it affordable).

Sony may be a poorly managed company, and they may need a few lessons in PR, but just because they are the biggest backer of a format doesn't mean you should hate it. I want movies that are only available on one or the other format, so I'll be picking up a PS3 in a few months to compliment the HD-DVD drive for my 360. Would I rather only have to have one player? Absolutely. But because I'm a geek, and because I'm now hooked to high-def, I'll support both.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: mcturkey

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

My problem with Blu-Ray is manyfold. From the draconian drm to the half-assed implemented players, to it's expense, all of the way to the non-standard format. That it's supported by sony only makes it worse.

I'll state my bias upfront: I very severely dislike Sony because of DRM, poor manufacturing quality, and shear arrogance with the creation, release, and marketing of the PS3.

Now, HD-DVD uses draconian DRM and is a non-standard format, so if you will kindly cease using either of those as an argument against BR, it would be greatly appreciated by all.

HD-DVD is only less expensive than BR right now because of BR doing better in the sales race. I can assure you we would NOT be seeing $200 HD players if BR weren't out there. The only thing driving player prices down right now is the competition. As long as HD stays in the fight, BR players will continue to get cheaper (though admittedly they still have a ways to go before many people will consider it affordable).

Sony may be a poorly managed company, and they may need a few lessons in PR, but just because they are the biggest backer of a format doesn't mean you should hate it. I want movies that are only available on one or the other format, so I'll be picking up a PS3 in a few months to compliment the HD-DVD drive for my 360. Would I rather only have to have one player? Absolutely. But because I'm a geek, and because I'm now hooked to high-def, I'll support both.

HD-DVD doesn't have BD+ and it doesn't have Region coding, both of which result in a far more open format.

HD-DVD is approved by the DVD consortium and uses similar technology to DVD, allowing for simple manufacturing changes relative to what BR requries. That greatly reduces fixed and marginal costs. THAT is why it's cheaper to produce HD-DVD and that is why Toshiba is still making a profit, while Sony lost 2bn (and the PS creator resigned).

The cheapest BD player sucks, the audio is a mess, it's stripped down, BD-J doesn't work correctly, POTC discs have problems, AFAIK no upscaling...etc. Sony essentially rushed a low-priced player to market to try to compete with the entire Toshiba line (top-end Tosh player is only $70 more than low-end BD player and is arguably the best upscaling player on the market).

The BDA has f'd implementation of their "standard" the whole process. Sony bleeds a different problem every week. To cover this up they hail their 10:1 player advantage a success when they are barely outselling HD-DVD. Toss in Blockbuster's marginal announcement to make waves and you have a Bose-esque PR war.

If you want to buy into it, fine, do that, but you're supporting the worse of the two formats.

 

[tatteredpotato]

Anyone else here tired of the word "Grasping?"

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: BlameCanada
Anyone else here tired of the word "Grasping?"

Here's a new one for LegendKiller: eBay

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Logically, you could game those same movies on HD-DVD if you didn't support BR.

No, because that's not logical. No studio is ever going to be influenced by my 1 player and 17 movies purchased.

I only bought a player once I felt confident enough that one side was going to win, no matter which side it was. I personally have nothing against HD DVD the format, but the rest of the world is choosing Blu-ray in larger percentages, and the extra capacity is just a bonus. I'm happy with my purchase.

Please if the studios see HD-DVD players and movies sales outpacing BluRay, they would have to be complete morons to not release their product on that format. The Movie studio really shouldnt care, their business is delivering their product in a way the consumers want.

So yes, your 17 movies purchased makes a difference. Because your 17 movies is mutiplied by everybody who does the same thing.

 

[Rio Rebel]

the half-assed implemented players

Like the first generation HD-DVD players which take 2 minutes to load and skip or stall on half the movies? Or the second generation ones which take 45 seconds to load and still skip or stall on half the movies?

 

[cvrefugee]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

the half-assed implemented players

Like the first generation HD-DVD players which take 2 minutes to load and skip or stall on half the movies? Or the second generation ones which take 45 seconds to load and still skip or stall on half the movies?

My HD-DVD add-on drive for the 360 works perfectly...what is this problem you speak of?

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: cvrefugee

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

the half-assed implemented players

Like the first generation HD-DVD players which take 2 minutes to load and skip or stall on half the movies? Or the second generation ones which take 45 seconds to load and still skip or stall on half the movies?

My HD-DVD add-on drive for the 360 works perfectly...what is this problem you speak of?

I overstated it kind of as a joke. But there is no doubt that the Toshibas have had many, many more problems than all of the Blu-ray players, with the possible exception of the Samsung. Even now, you see quite a few complaints about the flagship, the HD-XA2, with disks skipping or stalling.

Of course, everyone's personal experience will vary. Bottom line: to call the Blu-ray players half=assed implemented in comparison to the Toshibas is just inane.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Logically, you could game those same movies on HD-DVD if you didn't support BR.

No, because that's not logical. No studio is ever going to be influenced by my 1 player and 17 movies purchased.

I only bought a player once I felt confident enough that one side was going to win, no matter which side it was. I personally have nothing against HD DVD the format, but the rest of the world is choosing Blu-ray in larger percentages, and the extra capacity is just a bonus. I'm happy with my purchase.

Please if the studios see HD-DVD players and movies sales outpacing BluRay, they would have to be complete morons to not release their product on that format. The Movie studio really shouldnt care, their business is delivering their product in a way the consumers want.

So yes, your 17 movies purchased makes a difference. Because your 17 movies is mutiplied by everybody who does the same thing.

I was arguing with someone who feels that ~1500 Blockbuster stores stocking only Blu-ray movies is a non-event that means absolutely nothing to the format war.

I was actually surprised at how important he felt 1 player and 17 movies are considering his stance on the Blockbuster story.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Logically, you could game those same movies on HD-DVD if you didn't support BR.

No, because that's not logical. No studio is ever going to be influenced by my 1 player and 17 movies purchased.

I only bought a player once I felt confident enough that one side was going to win, no matter which side it was. I personally have nothing against HD DVD the format, but the rest of the world is choosing Blu-ray in larger percentages, and the extra capacity is just a bonus. I'm happy with my purchase.

Please if the studios see HD-DVD players and movies sales outpacing BluRay, they would have to be complete morons to not release their product on that format. The Movie studio really shouldnt care, their business is delivering their product in a way the consumers want.

So yes, your 17 movies purchased makes a difference. Because your 17 movies is mutiplied by everybody who does the same thing.

I was arguing with someone who feels that ~1500 Blockbuster stores stocking only Blu-ray movies is a non-event that means absolutely nothing to the format war.

I was actually surprised at how important he felt 1 player and 17 movies are considering his stance on the Blockbuster story.

I could go into a lengthy discussion as to why a person who buys a player *and* 17 discs with direct revenue to the studio is more harmful than 1,700 B&M stores with declining sales where far less revenue goes to the studios through rentals. However, all it'd turn out to be is "grasping", since intellectually challenged people can't reason and have a decent debate with facts and figures, so there is no point to even trying.

Just stop referencing me Cubby, I refuse to debate with somebody like you.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I could go into a lengthy discussion as to why a person who buys a player *and* 17 discs with direct revenue to the studio is more harmful than 1,700 B&M stores with declining sales where far less revenue goes to the studios through rentals. However, all it'd turn out to be is "grasping", since intellectually challenged people can't reason and have a decent debate with facts and figures, so there is no point to even trying.

Just stop referencing me Cubby, I refuse to debate with somebody like you.

Right here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...AR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

You called someone out because you felt they were wrong, only looking at half the available data, and only spreading FUDD. You never presenting any facts yourself.

Then he responded by citing the best data available to any of us.

Then you come back and say the information is unreliable, while again, not presenting any facts of your own.


You suggest that this Blockbuster deal is nothing more than a gimmick from Sony, a "close buddy of Blockbuster". Prove it with fact, a link perhaps. Because I don't believe it. You say that B&M stores are being marginalized and the next-gen battle is online - I say online, Blu-ray is still winning, look at the Amazon sales ranks, and DVD Empire sales. Present some actual facts to back up your claim of HD DVD gaining ground. You state as fact that people adopting these formats are purchasers, not renters. I don't believe it, provide a link that backs up your claim. You state as fact that the attachment rate for PS3 is 20%, then build an argument of speculation after that.

More laughably, you state that purchasing luxury items is comparable to voting. When voting, 51% of the votes in a specific time frame determines the absolute winner. When purchasing luxury items, 51% of the purchases in an indefinite time frame creates a standoff where both sides co-exist. In a format war, you have possible outcomes of side A winning, side B winning, both co-existing, both failing. Everyone has a vote. Not everyone has thousands of spare dollars. Regardless, I *am* voting with my money, and I am voting *for* Blu-ray.

The facts I & others provide is movie studio support, Neilson/Videoscan numbers, Amazon sales ranks, DVD Empire sales, 6 manufacturers making Blu-ray only players, with more stories that Funai is jumping on board to round out the low end, Blockbuster expanding stores Blu-ray only, two more small studios going Blu-ray exclusive Starz (Anchor Bay) & Exoptron, Blu-ray already has burners available, where's the HD DVD burners? These are all hard facts that need no proving. And they all point to Blu-ray winning the war.

Show me a fact that suggests HD DVD can win the war. Show me a figure. Do not present an interpretation or a speculation.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I could go into a lengthy discussion as to why a person who buys a player *and* 17 discs with direct revenue to the studio is more harmful than 1,700 B&M stores with declining sales where far less revenue goes to the studios through rentals. However, all it'd turn out to be is "grasping", since intellectually challenged people can't reason and have a decent debate with facts and figures, so there is no point to even trying.

Yeah one person with 17 discs vs 1,700 stores with (let's say) 200 discs each = ~350,000 discs. Plus the exposure a nationwide chain and rentals adds vs some geek in his basement with 17 HD-DVDs.

Plus if you are to believe Morgan Securities analyst Michael Pachter who has been dead-on in his market predictions that Blu-Ray winning the format war will in turn lead the PS3 ultimately winning the console war this generation:

http://biz.gamedaily.com/indus...=AOLGAM000500000000007

Feel free to argue, but I will take the prediction of a guy who has nailed the NPD every single month over an anti-Sony fanboy like yourself.

 

[mcturkey]

Originally posted by: Chris

Plus if you are to believe Morgan Securities analyst Michael Pachter who has been dead-on in his market predictions that Blu-Ray winning the format war will in turn lead the PS3 ultimately winning the console war this generation:

http://biz.gamedaily.com/indus...=AOLGAM000500000000007

Feel free to argue, but I will take the prediction of a guy who has nailed the NPD every single month over an anti-Sony fanboy like yourself.

Ok, winning a format war is one thing. But if the PS3 manages to outsell the 360 (it will NOT be the #1 seller -- that title is to be handed off to the Wii very shortly), it will be dumb luck on Sony's part. The software makers have spoken, and the 360 is the primary development target right now. It's leading the PS3 in console sales, and definitely leading in software sales. While BR may indeed triumph over HD, the PS3 has a hugely uphill battle to fight if it's going to come out ahead of the 360.

I don't see the point in debating anything with LegendKiller, because he seems to be oblivious to facts and figures, and rarely reads all of what someone wrote. Telling me I was supporting "the worse of the two formats" (BR, according to him) when I clearly stated that I currently own only HD-DVD was enough to make it plain to me he's not capable of engaging in real debate.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: mcturkey
Ok, winning a format war is one thing. But if the PS3 manages to outsell the 360 (it will NOT be the #1 seller -- that title is to be handed off to the Wii very shortly), it will be dumb luck on Sony's part. The software makers have spoken, and the 360 is the primary development target right now. It's leading the PS3 in console sales, and definitely leading in software sales. While BR may indeed triumph over HD, the PS3 has a hugely uphill battle to fight if it's going to come out ahead of the 360.

I'm not making the claim, but if Pachter says it I am inclined to believe it. He's been spot on with his predictions. Unlike us, a bunch of jerkoffs on a message forum, he's a seasoned analyst who gets paid millions to model market trends going out years.

Reading message forums it's hard to believe the PS3 do anything but tank, but we don't represent real world opinion. I think it's going to end up pretty close to a three-way tie in the end with each console winning one particular region 360 US, PS3 EU, Wii Japan.

 

[mcturkey]

Originally posted by: Chris
Reading message forums it's hard to believe the PS3 do anything but tank, but we don't represent real world opinion. I think it's going to end up pretty close to a three-way tie in the end with each console winning one particular region 360 US, PS3 EU, Wii Japan.

Well, I can't speak for the EU, but (being vague on purpose) as someone who deals directly with sales of consoles, and sees a lot of the internal numbers for at least one company, the PS3 is not gaining the momentum that the 360 did around this time in its first year. Maybe it's just a fluke and it's only in the area or company I'm part of, but these trends are usually pretty national. The reaction I've been noticing is that the PS3 is just a bit too much money, and for many of those with the means, the lack of games right now is causing many to either hold off or go with a 360. And almost everyone wants the Wii, but of course they can't find them. The Wii will be the #1 seller in the US and Japan for sure, and quite likely in Europe as well (although Sony does have a stronger hold there).

I rarely listen to analysts, because so often they miss critical parts of a business, or fail to fully understand the way a company works. Those few who get it right about one business or market get it wrong about a dozen others.

Sorry to thread-jack.

 

[gobucks]

to be honest, it really doesn't matter what sales on one format versus the other are right now. As much as I'd like the format war to simply be over, no side is going to cave while so much of the market is untapped. What is the market penetration of HDTV right now? like 10% of homes or less? The rest of the market isn't going to buy HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies unless they buy an HDTV, at least not until the prices are close to those of DVDs. That's why I think it's unfair for Sony to count all the PS3 sales (and the free movie it comes with) as Blu-ray sales. I only know 2 people with PS3s, but neither of them has an HDTV, and I imagine a lot of other people are in the same boat.

I personally think that if both sides keep to their present course, they will both linger until HDTV sales really take off; by then, Blu-ray will probably win because the prices on both will be pretty low, and Blu-ray has larger capacity and more extensive DRM (although it is debatable as to whether it is a pro or con, since people like to back up their movies, and BD+ could get cracked tomorrow for all we know.)

But if HD-DVD is smart, it will try to end the war before then. Obviously HD-DVD holds an advantage both in disc and player complexity, and hence, cost. If they can get players down to $100 (not far off, since walmart is apparently planning $150 players soon) and toshiba and other PC makers can get cheap HD-DVD ROMS into their PCs, even people without HDTVs will think about buying them rather than shelling out $50 for a regular DVD player. Selling HD-DVDs close to DVD prices will also tempt people planning to get HDTV in the future to "future-proof" their movie collections. Basically, if HD-DVD can tap into the general, non-HDTV public early, then they open the floodgates to sales and win the war. Otherwise, the two formats grind it out, and I think eventually Blu-ray would win a heads up match.

 

[Rio Rebel]

I don't know what it would take for HD-DVD to "win" the war, assuming by that you mean all major studios releasing in their format (including Sony). I doubt that they can do it by trying to sustain dirt-cheap players and media...in fact, who's to say they're not hurting already at this price point?

The more likely scenario is Universal going neutral. At that point, it would effectively be over.

 

[mlm]

Originally posted by: gobucks
The rest of the market isn't going to buy HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies unless they buy an HDTV, at least not until the prices are close to those of DVDs.

The prices are already fairly close for new releases. I've gotten all of our BDs for under $20, most around $15. The prices are certainly comparable to what DVDs were a few years ago.