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Blackwater performs flawlessly

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Originally posted by: The Yeti
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Blackwater is being targeted for political reasons only. Half the people bashing them have no clue of the important role they play. They listen only to information that aligns with their political beliefs regardless of fact. Blackwater exists because they fill an important need; the security, training, and safety of our deployed diplomats and military personnel. Individuals that believe they are just a bunch of yahoos running around shooting innocent people really should consider getting their facts straight before commenting. Some mistakes were made in the past, but immediate action was taken to address the issues. This particular firm is one of the most professional organizations operating within Iraq.

Doing an important job is no excuse for doing it badly. In fact, the fact that Blackwater is doing an important and vital job is all the more reason to replace them with someone who can DO IT.


Someone who can DO IT? They are filling that role better than any firm on the planet. I would hardly call that doing a job badly. Keeping their customers alive in a war zone is their job and they have not failed once. Nice try though.

That is NOT the job. The job is to do that in the context of the overall mission. They should be able to keep their customers alive without going all Rambo on Iraqi civilians and making peace in Iraq that much more difficult. If they can't, we should find someone who can.

I'm sick of all this whining about how hard everyone has it. Of course it's a hard job, nobody is disputing that. It's a difficult, demanding job that requires skill and dedication. That's not an excuse if you fail to bring those things to the table. The job Blackwater is filling is important and necessary, but they seem to have a problem doing it without making the overall mission less likely to succeed.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Blackwater is being targeted for political reasons only. Half the people bashing them have no clue of the important role they play. They listen only to information that aligns with their political beliefs regardless of fact. Blackwater exists because they fill an important need; the security, training, and safety of our deployed diplomats and military personnel. Individuals that believe they are just a bunch of yahoos running around shooting innocent people really should consider getting their facts straight before commenting. Some mistakes were made in the past, but immediate action was taken to address the issues. This particular firm is one of the most professional organizations operating within Iraq.

Doing an important job is no excuse for doing it badly. In fact, the fact that Blackwater is doing an important and vital job is all the more reason to replace them with someone who can DO IT.


Someone who can DO IT? They are filling that role better than any firm on the planet. I would hardly call that doing a job badly. Keeping their customers alive in a war zone is their job and they have not failed once. Nice try though.

That is NOT the job. The job is to do that in the context of the overall mission. They should be able to keep their customers alive without going all Rambo on Iraqi civilians and making peace in Iraq that much more difficult. If they can't, we should find someone who can.

I'm sick of all this whining about how hard everyone has it. Of course it's a hard job, nobody is disputing that. It's a difficult, demanding job that requires skill and dedication. That's not an excuse if you fail to bring those things to the table. The job Blackwater is filling is important and necessary, but they seem to have a problem doing it without making the overall mission less likely to succeed.

:thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Blackwater is being targeted for political reasons only. Half the people bashing them have no clue of the important role they play. They listen only to information that aligns with their political beliefs regardless of fact. Blackwater exists because they fill an important need; the security, training, and safety of our deployed diplomats and military personnel. Individuals that believe they are just a bunch of yahoos running around shooting innocent people really should consider getting their facts straight before commenting. Some mistakes were made in the past, but immediate action was taken to address the issues. This particular firm is one of the most professional organizations operating within Iraq.

QFT. Blackwater operates in an extremely dangerous and hostile environment.

That we created.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Blackwater is being targeted for political reasons only. Half the people bashing them have no clue of the important role they play. They listen only to information that aligns with their political beliefs regardless of fact. Blackwater exists because they fill an important need; the security, training, and safety of our deployed diplomats and military personnel. Individuals that believe they are just a bunch of yahoos running around shooting innocent people really should consider getting their facts straight before commenting. Some mistakes were made in the past, but immediate action was taken to address the issues. This particular firm is one of the most professional organizations operating within Iraq.

QFT. Blackwater operates in an extremely dangerous and hostile environment.

That we created.

Funny how thats not addressed eh?
 
Originally posted by: Pepsei
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
American soldiers need to be paid as much as blackwater's mercs

If you're a true patriot you'll agree with the above statement.

If only that were true. I would be living the life of a fat cat about now. However, with pay that high it would definitely attract alot of the wrong types of people to the job.

which means, a lot of mercs are there because of the money and not because they're patriots.

I can't say for sure b/c I don't know more than a handful that I spoke to in passing. But it is a job, and it pays extremely well; you do the math.

My guess is that they would fall into one of the following categories:

1. Retired military; trying to keep a sense of worth and camraderie, while helping the country and financially securing themselves for the future.

2. Ex-military: Left military to make more money in private security.

3. War junkies: guys who left the military, want good money, less rules and less accountability for their actions. Basically the guy who lives by the adrenaline rush from a firefight and dangerous situations.

That is my opinion only. I can't say for sure.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: The Yeti
Blackwater is being targeted for political reasons only. Half the people bashing them have no clue of the important role they play. They listen only to information that aligns with their political beliefs regardless of fact. Blackwater exists because they fill an important need; the security, training, and safety of our deployed diplomats and military personnel. Individuals that believe they are just a bunch of yahoos running around shooting innocent people really should consider getting their facts straight before commenting. Some mistakes were made in the past, but immediate action was taken to address the issues. This particular firm is one of the most professional organizations operating within Iraq.

QFT. Blackwater operates in an extremely dangerous and hostile environment.

That we created.

OMG WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY?! YOU JUST SAID THAT WE DID SOMETHING NEGATIVE! GTFO OF AMERICA!!
 
Originally posted by: The Yeti

Thanks for the link. I?m too tired to read it right now, so I?ll read it tomorrow and post back as soon as I?m able.

Do you have any links/info to the training, etc. you were refering to that Blackwater does, because from what I read all this money is specifically for US diplomat protection in Iraq, and only part of Iraq as their are 2 other companies responsible for other parts of Iraq.

Edit: I was going to ask, isn't "Yeti" the Sherpa word for the "abomidable snowman"? That makes me curious, what do you do for a living??
 
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: ayabe
Here's Darrell Issa, douchebag of the day, saying that even having a hearing on Blackwater is tantamount to the MoveOn Petraeus/Betray us.

Douchebaggery Within

Yes indeed, no misconduct here, just a game. We shouldn't care that we had to beg the Iraqi's not the kick them out or the numerous reports of misconduct, including straight up murder of a Iraqi bodyguard after a drunken exchange.

In 80%+ of Blackwater engagements, they fired first.

But I don't want to know about that, only those who hate America do.

I heard the 80% number also - but that could be one of those numbers that really doesn't mean anything. I mean, what if they stocked every convoy heavily with snipers, and every time they saw a guy raising an RPG, they nailed him? I can't fault them for that.

As for hearings by the dems, I see it as more political grandstanding for an ineffective democrat party. Start an independent investigation, review the results, then act. Dems are just covering for their inaction that's pissing of the left wing.

It's possible, so let's hear about it then. Why was Condi Rice trying to block anyone from Blackwater saying anything? What the hell is the State Department afraid of? We have these reports as well as confirmed incidents where payments were made to families. So let's hear about it.

Why is Blackwater in the running for a huge multi-million dollar narco-terrorism contract, is this going to be a political militia? Are we going to send them to LA to do convoy duty in Compton?

Why are we paying $450K a year for each operator, nearly eight times what it would take to pay and support a military man?

This isn't grandstanding these are legitimate questions, why are Republican's not interested in saving tax payer money or accomplishing the mission in Iraq. It's very easy to see that these policies are hurting our efforts there. Firing first then high tailing it out of there leaving bodies in your wake is not the way to win hearts and minds.

Sorry but when you have these reports with the Administration and it's enablers doing everything they can to withhold information from Congress and the public something stinks.

 
I take a couple of days off and the mudslinging and namecalling starts back up.:brokenheart:


eits is off for a week.

Others (if guilty) should take this warning to heart.
No-one else is going to get singled out for a warning.

However.....


Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy


 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I'll repeat a question that others have posed to you:

Why haven't you enlisted yet?

People like you, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Rush, Woflowicz, etc., etc. are the problem with America. You all want to have our country fighting wars all over the globe but not a single one of you have the balls to go and do it.

Until you can show in scanned orders of when you deploy to Iraq, STFU.

And I'll repeat the same answer I have several times before, when the little "chickenhawk" liberals play that card: Because I don't have to. Isn't it great living in a free country?

Now, until you can come in with something other than insults and personal attacks, please return to your desk.

That's called "all blow and no go". Like Rush, your a "true" patriot..... as long as it just word games.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Contractors do perform bravely and heroically every day in Iraq. That should not be up for debate.

What IS up for debate is their necessity to begin with, and the process for accountability. Can the US SOF afford to assign 2000 of our best active duty operators to personnel security duty for the state Department? I personally don't think so.

IMO, all we need to do is place them under UCMJ and be done with the debate altogether. Then, they'd be held accountable, they'd continue doing good work, and everyone would be happy - except, perhaps, the insurgents and terrorists who are scared sh*tless of them.

sound good?

This is an issue we strongly disagree on.

They should be held accountable by whatever law is relevant in the country they are in, they are civilians acting in a foreign nation, they are NOT part of any armed force.

I find the notion to have civilian security firms abiding by military laws disgusting.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
I find the notion to have civilian security firms abiding by military laws disgusting.

That is a legitimate debate.

It's not even a debate either, you don't let Iranian security firms go into the US shooting at whatever they perceive to be a threat, do you? If an Iranian civilian shot a US citizen in the US, what law would he be subjected to.

I'm saying that if we are ever going to achieve anything we need to start treating their society as theirs and abide by the laws they have made, if we don't believe in it then why would they?
 
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Contractors do perform bravely and heroically every day in Iraq. That should not be up for debate.

What IS up for debate is their necessity to begin with, and the process for accountability. Can the US SOF afford to assign 2000 of our best active duty operators to personnel security duty for the state Department? I personally don't think so.

IMO, all we need to do is place them under UCMJ and be done with the debate altogether. Then, they'd be held accountable, they'd continue doing good work, and everyone would be happy - except, perhaps, the insurgents and terrorists who are scared sh*tless of them.

sound good?

This is an issue we strongly disagree on.

They should be held accountable by whatever law is relevant in the country they are in, they are civilians acting in a foreign nation, they are NOT part of any armed force.

I find the notion to have civilian security firms abiding by military laws disgusting.
true enough, but I don't see Iraq's justice system being effective enough, at this point, to properly conduct trials and assert its authority over foreign citizens. I highly doubt that Iraq has a crack team of forensic and investigative specialists who could properly analyze the site of the recent ambush... so, are you willing to subject Americans to mob justice and/or corrupt trials wherein very little scientific evidence is presented? Do you believe they would receive a fair trial in Iraq?

I'm not familiar enough with Iraq's current laws and judicial system to properly analyze your approach, but my guess is that they are not a reflection of our own; and any American tried under their laws probably won't receive what we would consider a fair trial.

For all we know, the insurgents killed every bystander at the site of the ambush. Without a proper forensic investigation, and proper scientific autopsies, no proper court could rightfully convict anyone!

So if UCMJ is not an option (I'm not exactly comfortable with that solution either), and the Iraqi courts and law enforcement entities are ill-prepared to handle these situations, then what would you suggest?
 
Palehorse raises some good points.

I agree with John's perspective, but I think there are legitimate questions about whether that could square with reality given the situation and challenges in Iraq. Then again, not everyone believes in a "fair" trial.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Anti-Irari war and your still all blow, no go. :laugh:

AKA you're just another troll. Thanks for playing.

It's all a game to tools like you, isn't it. The truth is (even though you can't handle it) that this is serious crap. Our first hometown boy got killed in Iraq recently, his funeral was today. It was his fourth tour of duty while chickenhawk neocon assholes sit at home playing keyboard warrior. :thumbsup::cookie::thumbsdown:

Tomczak?s funeral Wednesday
Posted: Monday, Oct 1st, 2007
BY: Plainsman Staff

The funeral Mass for Army Staff Sgt. Zachary Tomczak, killed by enemy small arms fire Tuesday in Iraq, will be at 11 a.m. Wednesday at Huron Arena.

The Rev. Joe Holzhauser and the Rev. Terry Anderson will officiate.

Burial will be at St. Martin Cemetery with military rites by the Fort Bragg Honor Guard. Visitation will be 1 to 4 p.m. Tuesday at Welter Funeral Home and 6 to 8 p.m. Tuesday at Holy Trinity Catholic Parish with a scripture service at 7 p.m. at the church, or visitation one hour prior to the funeral Mass at the arena on Wednesday.

Tomczak, 24, formerly of Huron, was a combat infantryman and squad leader with Company B, 2nd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment (AIR), 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division based in Fort Bragg, N.C.

He joined the Army in June 2002 after graduating from Huron High School. He was on his fourth deployment to Iraq when he was killed.

He is survived by his wife, Beth, of Fayetteville, N.C.; his father and stepmother, Blaise and Jackie Tomczak of Huron; his mother Mary Flowers of Sioux Falls; and a stepsister, two half-sisters, a sister and a brother.

His unit is also holding a memorial service in Iraq.

Tomczak?s funeral Wednesday

Troll on tool. Have a 21 :cookie: salute, direct from me to you. Enjoy.

:cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie:

Edit: For the Tomczaks:

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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It's all a game to tools like you, isn't it. The truth is (even though you can't handle it) that this is serious crap. Our first hometown boy got killed in Iraq recently, his funeral was today. It was his fourth tour of duty while chickenhawk neocon assholes sit at home playing keyboard warrior. :thumbsup::cookie::thumbsdown:

The Left's Phony Chickenhawk Arguments

Read it and weep, Mr. "Keyboard Warrior" ...

Troll on tool. Have a 21 :cookie: salute, direct from me to you. Enjoy.

:cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie:

Thanks for proving my point. :thumbsup:

 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It's all a game to tools like you, isn't it. The truth is (even though you can't handle it) that this is serious crap. Our first hometown boy got killed in Iraq recently, his funeral was today. It was his fourth tour of duty while chickenhawk neocon assholes sit at home playing keyboard warrior. :thumbsup::cookie::thumbsdown:

The Left's Phony Chickenhawk Arguments

Read it and weep, Mr. "Keyboard Warrior" ...

Troll on tool. Have a 21 :cookie: salute, direct from me to you. Enjoy.

:cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie::cookie:

Thanks for proving my point. :thumbsup:

If the shoe fits......
 
It started out as a family errand: Ahmed Haithem Ahmed was driving his mother, Mohassin, to pick up his father from the hospital where he worked as a pathologist. As they approached Nisour Square at midday on Sept. 16, they did not know that a bomb had gone off nearby or that a convoy of four armored vehicles carrying Blackwater guards armed with automatic rifles was approaching.

Moments later a bullet tore through Mr. Ahmed?s head, he slumped, and the car rolled forward. Then Blackwater guards responded with a barrage of gunfire and explosive weapons, leaving 17 dead and 24 wounded ? a higher toll than previously thought, according to Iraqi investigators.

Interviews with 12 Iraqi witnesses, several Iraqi investigators and an American official familiar with an American investigation of the shootings offer new insights into the gravity of the episode in Nisour Square. And they are difficult to square with the explanation offered initially by Blackwater officials that their guards were responding proportionately to an attack on the streets around the square.

The new details include these:

¶A deadly cascade of events began when a single bullet apparently fired by a Blackwater guard killed an Iraqi man whose weight probably remained on the accelerator and propelled the car forward as the passenger, the man?s mother, clutched him and screamed.

¶The car continued to roll toward the convoy, which responded with an intense barrage of gunfire in several directions, striking Iraqis who were desperately trying to flee.

¶Minutes after that shooting stopped, a Blackwater convoy ? possibly the same one ? moved north from the square and opened fire on another line of traffic a few hundred yards away, in a previously unreported separate shooting, investigators and several witnesses say.

But questions emerge from accounts of the earliest moments of the shooting in Nisour Square.

The car in which the first people were killed did not begin to closely approach the Blackwater convoy until the Iraqi driver had been shot in the head and lost control of his vehicle. Not one witness heard or saw any gunfire coming from Iraqis around the square. And following a short initial burst of bullets, the Blackwater guards unleashed an overwhelming barrage of gunfire even as Iraqis were turning their cars around and attempting to flee.

As the gunfire continued, at least one of the Blackwater guards began screaming, ?No! No! No!? and gesturing to his colleagues to stop shooting, according to an Iraqi lawyer who was stuck in traffic and was shot in the back as he tried to flee. The account of the struggle among the Blackwater guards corroborates preliminary findings of the American investigation.

Still, while the series of events pieced together by the Iraqis may be correct, important elements could still be missing from that account, according to the American official familiar with the continuing American investigation into the shootings.

Among the questions still to be answered, the official said, is whether at any time nearby Iraqi security forces began firing, possibly leading the Blackwater convoy to believe it was under attack and therefore justified in returning fire. It is also possible that as the car kept rolling toward the intersection, the Blackwater guards believed it posed a threat and intensified their shooting.

Blackwater has said that its guards were fired upon and responded appropriately.

Witnesses close to the places where most of the Iraqi civilians were killed directly facing the Blackwater convoy on the southern rim of the square all give a relatively consistent picture of how events began and unfolded.

The Blackwater convoy was in the square to control traffic for a second convoy that was approaching from the south. The second convoy was bringing diplomats who had been evacuated from a meeting after a bomb went off near the compound where the meeting was taking place. That convoy had not arrived at the square by the time the shooting started.

The events in the square began with a short burst of bullets that witnesses described as unprovoked. A traffic policeman standing at the edge of the square, Sarhan Thiab, saw that a young man in a car had been hit. In the line of traffic, that car was the third vehicle from the intersection where the convoy had positioned itself.

?We tried to help him,? Mr. Thiab said. ?I saw the left side of his head was destroyed and his mother was crying out: ?My son, my son. Help me, help me.??

Another traffic policeman rushed to the driver?s side to try to get her son out of the car, but the car was still rolling forward because her son had lost control, according to a taxi driver close by who gave his name as Abu Mariam (?father of Mariam?).

Then Blackwater guards opened fire with a barrage of bullets, according to the police and numerous witnesses. Mr. Ahmed?s father later counted 40 bullet holes in the car. His mother, Mohassin Kadhim, appears to have been shot to death as she cradled her son in her arms. Moments later the car caught fire after the Blackwater guards fired a type of grenade into the vehicle.

The taxi driver was a few feet ahead of Mrs. Kadhim?s car when he heard the first gunshots. He was aware of cars behind him trying to back out of the street or turn around and drive away from the square. He tried frantically to turn his car, but ran into the curb.

Unable to escape, he pulled himself over to the passenger side, which was the one not facing the square, opened the door and crawled out, flattening his body to the ground.

?The dust from the street was coming in my mouth and as I pulled myself out of the area, my left leg was shot by a bullet,? he said.

Accounts in the initial days after the event described Mrs. Kadhim as holding a baby in her arms. It now appears that those accounts were based on assumptions that the charred remains of Mrs. Kadhim?s son were mistaken for an infant.

By then cars were struggling to get out of the line of fire, and many people were abandoning their vehicles altogether. The scene turned hellish.

?The shooting started like rain; everyone escaped his car,? said Fareed Walid Hassan, a truck driver who hauls goods in his Hyundai minibus.

He saw a woman dragging her child. ?He was around 10 or 11,? he said. ?He was dead. She was pulling him by one hand to get him away. She hoped that he was still alive.?

As the shooting started in earnest Jabber Salman, a lawyer on his way to the Ministry of Justice for a noon meeting, described people crying and shouting. ?Some people were trying to escape by crawling,? he said. ?Some people were killed in front of me.?

As Mr. Salman tried to drive away from the shooting, bullets came one after another through his rear windshield, hitting his neck, shoulders, left forearm and lower back. ?I thought, ?I?m sorry they are going to kill me and I can do nothing.??

Iraqi investigators believe that during the shooting Blackwater helicopters flew overhead and fired into the cars from above. They say that at least one the car roofs had bullets through them. Blackwater has denied that its helicopters discharged any weapons.

Minutes after the first shootings, a Blackwater convoy arrived at the other side of the square, where civilian traffic was also backed up, and shot into cars, according to an Iraqi official who is a member of the investigation committee set up by the Iraqi government.

?I found three people from that incident in Khadimiya hospital,? the Iraqi official said. ?One died and two were injured. Why is the private security shooting again in this area??

Two weeks after the events that claimed the life of Mrs. Kadhim and her son, her husband, Haithem Ahmed, her daughter Mariam and her younger son, Haider, are still bewildered.

?My son was very gentle, very clever,? Mr. Ahmed said, looking down at the floor of the police investigation center where he had come to give more details at the request of Iraqi investigators. ?He was easy to be around. He planned to be a surgeon.?

?She is a beautiful woman,? he said of his wife, speaking as if she were still alive.

Then he looked at a picture of his son, captured on a memorial video made by a friend and stored on Haider?s cellphone camera. Seeming to forget there was anyone else in the room, he spoke to the video image.

?I am waiting to meet you in paradise,? he said.

From Errand to Fatal Shot to Hail of Fire to 17 Deaths October 3, 2007
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Contractors do perform bravely and heroically every day in Iraq. That should not be up for debate.

What IS up for debate is their necessity to begin with, and the process for accountability. Can the US SOF afford to assign 2000 of our best active duty operators to personnel security duty for the state Department? I personally don't think so.

IMO, all we need to do is place them under UCMJ and be done with the debate altogether. Then, they'd be held accountable, they'd continue doing good work, and everyone would be happy - except, perhaps, the insurgents and terrorists who are scared sh*tless of them.

sound good?

This is an issue we strongly disagree on.

They should be held accountable by whatever law is relevant in the country they are in, they are civilians acting in a foreign nation, they are NOT part of any armed force.

I find the notion to have civilian security firms abiding by military laws disgusting.
true enough, but I don't see Iraq's justice system being effective enough, at this point, to properly conduct trials and assert its authority over foreign citizens. I highly doubt that Iraq has a crack team of forensic and investigative specialists who could properly analyze the site of the recent ambush... so, are you willing to subject Americans to mob justice and/or corrupt trials wherein very little scientific evidence is presented? Do you believe they would receive a fair trial in Iraq?

I'm not familiar enough with Iraq's current laws and judicial system to properly analyze your approach, but my guess is that they are not a reflection of our own; and any American tried under their laws probably won't receive what we would consider a fair trial.

For all we know, the insurgents killed every bystander at the site of the ambush. Without a proper forensic investigation, and proper scientific autopsies, no proper court could rightfully convict anyone!

So if UCMJ is not an option (I'm not exactly comfortable with that solution either), and the Iraqi courts and law enforcement entities are ill-prepared to handle these situations, then what would you suggest?

I know what you are saying, but one thing i don't get is how these justice systems can be allowed to work with Iraqis and praised by politicians when they don't really work, i mean, what justice system handled the trials of Saddam, if it was just enough for him why not for them or is it not just and if so why were they allowed to handle his trial knowing it would not be a just one? I realize that i'm putting you in a bad spot here and you can't really answer that, neither can i.

I'm not saying they are bad people but i am saying that i wouldn't mind you and whoever you command or have commanded watch my neighbourhood but neither you nor me would want these clowns patrolling our neighbourhoods.

The incident you are referring to, would you have ordered your men to draw fire onto the vehicle you were trying to protect? Of course not, these numbskulls should be glad that the enemy were idiots in this case, it's not very likely that it will be the case all of the time.

If i got into that situation no one would have done shit if i didn't tell them to do it and i would have gotten the protected vehicle out of harms way first then fought anyone who would follow, i'm fairly sure this would have been your strategy as well, it's standard procedure after all.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Contractors do perform bravely and heroically every day in Iraq. That should not be up for debate.

What IS up for debate is their necessity to begin with, and the process for accountability. Can the US SOF afford to assign 2000 of our best active duty operators to personnel security duty for the state Department? I personally don't think so.

IMO, all we need to do is place them under UCMJ and be done with the debate altogether. Then, they'd be held accountable, they'd continue doing good work, and everyone would be happy - except, perhaps, the insurgents and terrorists who are scared sh*tless of them.

sound good?

This is an issue we strongly disagree on.

They should be held accountable by whatever law is relevant in the country they are in, they are civilians acting in a foreign nation, they are NOT part of any armed force.

I find the notion to have civilian security firms abiding by military laws disgusting.
true enough, but I don't see Iraq's justice system being effective enough, at this point, to properly conduct trials and assert its authority over foreign citizens. I highly doubt that Iraq has a crack team of forensic and investigative specialists who could properly analyze the site of the recent ambush... so, are you willing to subject Americans to mob justice and/or corrupt trials wherein very little scientific evidence is presented? Do you believe they would receive a fair trial in Iraq?

I'm not familiar enough with Iraq's current laws and judicial system to properly analyze your approach, but my guess is that they are not a reflection of our own; and any American tried under their laws probably won't receive what we would consider a fair trial.

For all we know, the insurgents killed every bystander at the site of the ambush. Without a proper forensic investigation, and proper scientific autopsies, no proper court could rightfully convict anyone!

So if UCMJ is not an option (I'm not exactly comfortable with that solution either), and the Iraqi courts and law enforcement entities are ill-prepared to handle these situations, then what would you suggest?

What about get the hell out of that country? the whole mess started with the invasion of Iraq and up to now you rightwinger haven't come up with anything that remotely justify all the killing and dying that's going on. The whole Blackwater mess shouldn't really surprise anybody. They were paid to use deadly force to protect American interests, and the reason US military uses them IS because they were not bound by any laws, so they can take care of military's dirty work. It's kinds stupid now for people to criticize BW, they are only the tools, the American government/military is the one using that tool for their benefits.

If American people is really interest in justice, they need to prosecute the war criminal who started the war under false pretense, pull out the military, and fund whatever international effort necessary to rebuild Iraq.
 
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