Black Hole theory

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voodoochylde

Senior member
Feb 19, 2004
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Originally posted by: rymaster
Hell anyone who is smart enough to think about these things should truly be thankful. I find nothing more fascinating then space. To relate to the black hole theory, I like to think that everything it collects it spits out of a white whole, maybe a whole different universe? To relate to the expanding of the universe, the only thing I can think about is how that one single point got there :-\

Heh, not trying to inflate my ego by thinking I'm intelligent enough to understand most of the physics involving blackholes, dark matter, etc but - after reading up a little bit, I'm curious as to whether there isn't at least one alternate universe that is the exact opposite of our current home...an anti-universe, so to speak.

What I'm thinking is (and this is yet another horrible analogy brought to you by Voodoo) kinda like a bottle or other container filled with water. Turn it upside down and the water flows out, being replaced with air. Think of the water like our universe (regular matter) and the air as the alternate "anti-universe" (antimatter). The mouth of the bottle would be the point of transfer between a horrendously massive black hole and white hole. IOW, our universe is expanding AND accelerating because constant anti-universe bits and pieces are being brought in through the white hole on this end of the transaction. With the antimatter would also come anti-gravity (like the whole white hole thing). A similar effect would be happening in the anti-universe from our plain Jane matter being shipped in.

LMK if anyone has anything to strike this whole brainfart down with - I'm ferociously interested in the whole bit.
 

imported_jb

Member
Sep 10, 2004
171
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i don't think there's evidence that our matter came from somewhere. or that blackholes go anywhere. blackball, not blackhole. anyways.. i'd like to assume that the universe as we know it is just a spark. a really, really, big spark. bzzt!
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: voodoochylde
Originally posted by: rymaster
Hell anyone who is smart enough to think about these things should truly be thankful. I find nothing more fascinating then space. To relate to the black hole theory, I like to think that everything it collects it spits out of a white whole, maybe a whole different universe? To relate to the expanding of the universe, the only thing I can think about is how that one single point got there :-\

Heh, not trying to inflate my ego by thinking I'm intelligent enough to understand most of the physics involving blackholes, dark matter, etc but - after reading up a little bit, I'm curious as to whether there isn't at least one alternate universe that is the exact opposite of our current home...an anti-universe, so to speak.

What I'm thinking is (and this is yet another horrible analogy brought to you by Voodoo) kinda like a bottle or other container filled with water. Turn it upside down and the water flows out, being replaced with air. Think of the water like our universe (regular matter) and the air as the alternate "anti-universe" (antimatter). The mouth of the bottle would be the point of transfer between a horrendously massive black hole and white hole. IOW, our universe is expanding AND accelerating because constant anti-universe bits and pieces are being brought in through the white hole on this end of the transaction. With the antimatter would also come anti-gravity (like the whole white hole thing). A similar effect would be happening in the anti-universe from our plain Jane matter being shipped in.

I didn't exactly understand what you were saying, but i can chime in on the anti-matter and anti-gravity parts. Anti-matter isn't matter that is opposite of normal matter, and it will not cause anti-gravity. Gravity is the effect of mass on space-time. An analogy that has been used countless time is to think of space-time as a bedspread, and if you put a bowling ball on the bed, it'll sink into the fabric a little. That's what gravity is. Anti-matter is not just matter that acts opposite of normal matter, so it won't create 'anti-gravity'. Infact, antimatter coming into our universe would be destroyed when it came in contact with normal matter.

And there couldn't be something that is constantly coming into our universe from the origin of the universe to constantly make it grow. Although the universe came from a single point in space, that point no longer exists. There isn't a real 'center' of the universe any longer, because not only is space expanding, so is time. So to get to the beginning of where the universe began, we not only need to travel through space, but through time as well. Think of pre-bigbang as a deflated ballon that's rolled up in a ball... and once the big bang started, time started, and time started to fill the balloon... as the balloon fills (time goes by), the balloon gets larger (universe gets larger). Now, nowhere on that balloon can you point to and say 'here is the birth point of the universe'... and the same with the universe. If you want get to the location to where the balloon was originally, you would need to deflate the balloon and roll it up in a ball again... and the same thing with the universe. If you want to get to the location of where the universe began, you would need to go back in time to the beginning of the universe.
 

Kasper4christ

Senior member
Sep 29, 2004
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so, in theory, if you were to travel faster than light (forgetting about the mass, energy and the time effects) would it be possible to get to the edge of the universe?
Also, that guy who posted about getting really close to a black hole, suspended in time if you will.. Andromeda anyone? :p
 

voodoochylde

Senior member
Feb 19, 2004
305
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71
Originally posted by: Hardcore
I didn't exactly understand what you were saying, but i can chime in on the anti-matter and anti-gravity parts. Anti-matter isn't matter that is opposite of normal matter, and it will not cause anti-gravity. Gravity is the effect of mass on space-time. An analogy that has been used countless time is to think of space-time as a bedspread, and if you put a bowling ball on the bed, it'll sink into the fabric a little. That's what gravity is. Anti-matter is not just matter that acts opposite of normal matter, so it won't create 'anti-gravity'. Infact, antimatter coming into our universe would be destroyed when it came in contact with normal matter.

And there couldn't be something that is constantly coming into our universe from the origin of the universe to constantly make it grow. Although the universe came from a single point in space, that point no longer exists. There isn't a real 'center' of the universe any longer, because not only is space expanding, so is time. So to get to the beginning of where the universe began, we not only need to travel through space, but through time as well. Think of pre-bigbang as a deflated ballon that's rolled up in a ball... and once the big bang started, time started, and time started to fill the balloon... as the balloon fills (time goes by), the balloon gets larger (universe gets larger). Now, nowhere on that balloon can you point to and say 'here is the birth point of the universe'... and the same with the universe. If you want get to the location to where the balloon was originally, you would need to deflate the balloon and roll it up in a ball again... and the same thing with the universe. If you want to get to the location of where the universe began, you would need to go back in time to the beginning of the universe.

I see. Makes sense - I hadn't done any real research into antimatter to be honest and was just throwing stuff out there. Made sense at the time but I see what you're saying. Excuse me while I dig into this subject deeper :eek:
 

EightySix Four

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2004
5,122
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I'm still confused as I've always been taught, matter can't be created, or destroyed, only changed. So where does anti-matter fit into that equation?
 

alienal99

Member
Nov 9, 2004
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the idea of black holes you have been talking about is flawed at a very low level. Black holes are entirely a concept, and there are no known black holes. Furthermore, as someone has already pointed out, if an object, such as the sun, or a group of objects, such as our solar system, were turned into a black hole,it would simply centralize all masses in our solar system to one single, infinitely small mass. This would have the same effect on other solarsystems as our current solar system, and no other planetary bodies would feel a difference. The idea of an infinitely dense "black hole system" that continually sucks in planets and stars is illogical. Since gravity depends on mass, gravity cannot be created, yet it must spawn from some sort of mass, which already has a gravitiational impact. Simply packing together this mass into a tiny ball and calling it a black hole will not create a stronger gravitational pull than the individual parts of mass that created it. Gravity is a 1+1=2 concept, and ideals of the "whole" being greater than the sum of it's parts do not work.

alex
 

ComatoseDelirium

Senior member
Dec 18, 2004
653
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God created the universe, the big bang is a lie, and benny hinn isn't wealthy!! muhahaha.. just making fun of evangelists..
 

sonoran

Member
May 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: Pohemi420
I don't think matter can just be created out of nothingness in order to fill empty space is my point, so I don't quite understand how you imagine this happening.
Which leads one to the ultimate question - how did the universe come to be in the first place? I'm pretty sure it exists, so it came into existence somehow. ;)
 

zugzoog

Senior member
Jun 29, 2004
447
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0
Originally posted by: crazySOB297
I'm still confused as I've always been taught, matter can't be created, or destroyed, only changed. So where does anti-matter fit into that equation?


It's energy that cannot be created/destroyed, but only changed. Since mass is equivalent to energy then you can convert evergy to mass and vice versa.

When a matter particle collides with an anti-matter particle then they are both converted to energy. The amount of energy released is.....

....Drum roll....


E=mc^2

where m = mass of the matter particle AND mass of the anti-matter particle.
 

zugzoog

Senior member
Jun 29, 2004
447
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Originally posted by: alienal99
the idea of black holes you have been talking about is flawed at a very low level. Black holes are entirely a concept, and there are no known black holes. Furthermore, as someone has already pointed out, if an object, such as the sun, or a group of objects, such as our solar system, were turned into a black hole,it would simply centralize all masses in our solar system to one single, infinitely small mass. This would have the same effect on other solarsystems as our current solar system, and no other planetary bodies would feel a difference. The idea of an infinitely dense "black hole system" that continually sucks in planets and stars is illogical. Since gravity depends on mass, gravity cannot be created, yet it must spawn from some sort of mass, which already has a gravitiational impact. Simply packing together this mass into a tiny ball and calling it a black hole will not create a stronger gravitational pull than the individual parts of mass that created it. Gravity is a 1+1=2 concept, and ideals of the "whole" being greater than the sum of it's parts do not work.

alex


Sorry, this is incorrect.

The strength of a gravitational field is proportional to 1/(distance^2). This means that as the distance between particles approaches zero the gravitational field approaches infinity.

So for particles within a group of objects (such as the solar system) the more spread out the particles are the less gravitational impact they will have on each other. The escape velocity for such a group of objects is relatively low.


The closer that they are together the more impact that they will have on each other, until the escape velocity required approaches or exceeds the speed of light.

Because of of the Paulii exclusion principle (two particles cannot be in the same space at the same time) a body such as our sun will never collapse to a Black hole. However in 8 or so Galaxies there are objects that contain a mass one million to several billion times the mass of our sun. At least one of these has been measured to be only half a light year in diameter. The mass required for a star's gravitation to overcome the Pauli exclusion principle (once it has burnt out) is around 3 solar masses).

Caveats.

1) At extremely small distances and at extreme gravitation the known physical laws break down. Therefore we do not know if infinite gravitation can exist. However all that is required for a black hole is a body of mass that has an escape velocity greater that the speed of light. This is within known laws of physics.

2) Bodies near a group of objects will notice a difference between a concentrated or a distributed mass. Partly due to a distributed mass will have a larger arc of effect and that gravitation is proportional to distance^2. This difference at the distances you are thinking of is going to be generally insignificant and you are pretty much correct about this. If the Sun was suddenly replaced by a black hole of the same size, the stars in our local group are not going to suddenly be sucked into it. However if a star was to stray close to a black hole, game over.

3) You are correct that there is no definitive proof for a black hole as yet, however there is some pretty compelling circumstantial evidence (refer link I posted in earlier post Link)
 

FreemanHL2

Member
Dec 20, 2004
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I'd like to add that just because you can no longer find the first atoms of the universe deos not mean the origin of the first atoms is "missing." Also if our universe is continually accelerating (expanding) than some force must be acting apon it... The only know force to do so is gravity, so logic dictates there is infact another spaciel object (perhaps another universes much larger than our own) pulling our universe towards it.

Perhaps there is unkown matter outside of our universe that is pulling us towords it. When a star collapses it INVERSES itself, therefore inversing all matter the star was made of, therefore you could say a wormhole is made of anti-matter or matter inverse to our own (Having exponential mass and therefore exponential gravity). Obviously the wormhole has to have an edge (the event horizone pre-determined by the size of the inversed star), anything that goes past the event horozine is instantaneuosly affected by the womrholes exponential mass and gravity. It would be an obvious conclusion that time could not exist in exponential mass and gravity, and anything going in the worm hole would be exponentially crushed, to the point were the matter is INVERSED and becomes antimatter (which i'll have you know is technically nothing to humans, because we are only capable of sensing real matter).

Therefore nothing would escape the wormhole, matter would just become part of the wormhole. Perhaps there is an infinite amount of anti-matter outside of our universe and it will continue to pull us towords it (at an increasing rate as we get closer to the centre of the anomoly). It is also worth thinking about the difference in perspective between INSIDE the wormhole and OUTSIDE the wormhole. Obviously the only things affected by the wormhole are those inside of it, so technically everything inside the wormhole ways nothing (or has an exponential weight which is technically the same thing if you think about it for long enough). But the collective anti-matter actually has a mass when wheighed in normal matter.

Wormholes obviously contain no normal matter, and i think we can all assume that anything entering the wormhole is inversed (think about how it was created), so we may aswell say a wormhole is made of anti-matter. And logic obviously dictates that anything enering it would also become anti-matter? makes sense?

A couple of startling facts are:

Antimatter actually has a weight.

Antimatter can exist in normal matter.

A wormhole actually keeps consistent in size even though it has no real boundries... why deosn't a wormhole just suck everything in??? why deos a wormhole have an EVENT HORIZON???

I believe there is more to an event horozin than we may think, it is almost like it is keeping the wormhole together somehow... To finish things of, I don't believe time exists in a wormhole due to the fact that matter deosn't exist in a wormohle... It is just anti-matter, emitting a force on real particles.

I don't think anti-matter can be emitted from a wormhole because it is kept together by exponential gravity. Perghaps the universe is continually weighing more as it expands because somehow the distance is causing an increase in mass...
 

Anubis08

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
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Actually we do not even know the size of any black hole. There is no way to prove how large or small the radius is, we can only know mass. This comes from conservation of energy theorem which you can use to find the swartzkoff (don't know if that is how its spelled though ;)) radius. All that radius is is the maximum size that amount of mass can be to pull in light. The actual radius of the largest blackhole (as seen) could actually be 1 meter, but it will still pull in light up to the swartzkoff radius do to the amount of matter it has inside of it.
 

Anubis08

Senior member
Aug 24, 2004
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If you read they are assuming it is at the critical radius. That is the opinion I got. As I said, the same mass no matter the radius will have the same affect to something incoming (as long as you test at or outside the largest radius. Newton proved that when going through a large mass like going through the center of the earth, at 1/4 the way in you feel the same gravity as if you were standing on the surface of a planet with a radius of the remaining distance between you and the core of the earth. This is due to the opposite pull of gravity from the mass above you.)
 

zugzoog

Senior member
Jun 29, 2004
447
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I would suggest that the size of the black hole that they are referring to in the article is the size of the Event Horizon. This is the sphere surrounding the black hole that defines the "point of no return" i.e the escape velocity equals the speed of light.

However the size of the mass of the black hole (singularity), I think that one is harder to define. Relativity would suggest that the singularity would be infinitly small. However Relativity does break down at extremely high gravitational fields. What is actually in there we can only theorise on, but can never conclusively prove.
 

kotss

Senior member
Oct 29, 2004
267
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These are in response to the science tragedy Originally posted by: FreemanHL2

My opinion is that your knowledge of the theories of physics are limited. You try to use logic in an attempt
to verify incorrect conclusions. Lets try to take these things one at a time.

First lets put something to rest.

Wormholes and blackholes are two different theories. (It is possible you were really thinking blackhole
every time you typed wormhole.

I'd like to add that just because you can no longer find the first atoms of the universe deos not mean the origin of the first atoms is "missing." Also if our universe is continually accelerating (expanding) than some force must be acting apon it... The only know force to do so is gravity, so logic dictates there is infact another spaciel object (perhaps another universes much larger than our own) pulling our universe towards it.

You have tried to use this first atoms concept before. It does not match any useful theory I have read. It is a theory derived only by yourself. According to most big bang theories, the explosion or super huge super collider that initially started off the universe sent everything flying away.

Perhaps there is unkown matter outside of our universe that is pulling us towords it. When a star collapses it INVERSES itself, therefore inversing all matter the star was made of, therefore you could say a wormhole is made of anti-matter or matter inverse to our own (Having exponential mass and therefore exponential gravity). Obviously the wormhole has to have an edge (the event horizone pre-determined by the size of the inversed star), anything that goes past the event horozine is instantaneuosly affected by the womrholes exponential mass and gravity. It would be an obvious conclusion that time could not exist in exponential mass and gravity, and anything going in the worm hole would be exponentially crushed, to the point were the matter is INVERSED and becomes antimatter (which i'll have you know is technically nothing to humans, because we are only capable of sensing real matter).

Please read a little about Black hole theory. What is currently held is that a star collapses in on itself and gravity prevents the solar mass from
escaping, it then condenses the matter down to as small as possible a size. You know have a smaller region of space occupied by roughly the same mass
as the star that collapsed. The force exerted on mass is equivalent to F=(G(m1)(m2))/(x*x).
G=Gravitational constant; m1=mass 1; m2=mass 2; x = distance between masses. AS the distance between masses decreases the force increases by a square factor.
In all acutuality time still exists for particles captured in a black hole, it is just slower to an outside observer, I do not believe it is an obvious conclusion as you state.

Therefore nothing would escape the wormhole, matter would just become part of the wormhole. Perhaps there is an infinite amount of anti-matter outside of our universe and it will continue to pull us towords it (at an increasing rate as we get closer to the centre of the anomoly). It is also worth thinking about the difference in perspective between INSIDE the wormhole and OUTSIDE the wormhole. Obviously the only things affected by the wormhole are those inside of it, so technically everything inside the wormhole ways nothing (or has an exponential weight which is technically the same thing if you think about it for long enough). But the collective anti-matter actually has a mass when wheighed in normal matter.

You seem to create an anti universe with your theory. It has now been postualted by Stephen Hawking that some energy can escape a black hole. Do some
reading to find out how. You make a conclusion that something that weighs nothing can be the same as something that weighs alot. It is really not a matter
of weight, it is a matter of mass. (Pun intended). Weight is the product of acceleration and mass. (Now, yes, weight can be used similarly but mass is
what is really important.) A super massive object and an object that has infinitesimal mass are not the same by any matter.

You keep stating anti-matter, I think that you do not have a clear concept of anti-matter. Anti-matter is existent in our universe and can be created
by some of the super colliders. Anti-matter taken to its particle level is a particle that has the same mass and spin as its own anti-particle,
the differences are its charge and timeline. The charge is opposite and the timeline is considered opposite. Example, the electron has an anti-particle
known as the positron. It has the same mass and spin, but the charges are opposite. When the 2 collide they create gamma radiation with an energy
equivalent to the 2 original particles masses. The timeline of the positron is theorized to be in reverse of the electrons.

Wormholes obviously contain no normal matter, and i think we can all assume that anything entering the wormhole is inversed (think about how it was created), so we may aswell say a wormhole is made of anti-matter. And logic obviously dictates that anything enering it would also become anti-matter? makes sense?

A couple of startling facts are:

Antimatter actually has a weight.

Antimatter can exist in normal matter.

A wormhole actually keeps consistent in size even though it has no real boundries... why deosn't a wormhole just suck everything in??? why deos a wormhole have an EVENT HORIZON???

I believe there is more to an event horozin than we may think, it is almost like it is keeping the wormhole together somehow... To finish things of, I don't believe time exists in a wormhole due to the fact that matter deosn't exist in a wormohle... It is just anti-matter, emitting a force on real particles.

I don't think anti-matter can be emitted from a wormhole because it is kept together by exponential gravity. Perghaps the universe is continually weighing more as it expands because somehow the distance is causing an increase in mass...

Black holes do contain normal matter according to current theories. Why do you think everyone will assume what you assume. I do not think that matter
entering a black hole becomes anti-matter. Your comments do not make sense with my understanding of physics. According to the first law of thermodynamics
you cannot create nor destory energy/mass. And the universe would not weigh any more or less due to expansion, what changes is the density due to expansion.

Your startling facts about anti-matter are not that starting to people who have done some some reading
and have been educated in the sciences.

What I would suggest is some serious scientific reading, other than the bible. (HOLES in evolution).

Some people tend to do more reading of the highly technical forum than you think.

Also, please respond to the two questions I put to you in the thread mentioned. I eagerly await your answers.
 

Hans5849

Senior member
Dec 31, 2003
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Well, i got thru most of this page but right now my brain is a little bit fizzled, but heres what i have to say.

The idea was brought up of the universe expanding at a accelerating rate and the idea of the "edge" of the universe new matter appearing, and the idea of black holes creating new universes/galaxies. Well if the universe is expanding at a accelerating rate it could be from one or both of the things that i listed.

When the "edge" of the universe meets up up the dark matter particle that has been causing it to accelerate (assuimg there are more than one dark matter particle) it is over lapped by the universe and then energy is released which can become matter.

This is a little more simple, imagine a black hole as a vaccume as it intakes matter the matter is stored in a bag. Well that bag is our universe and as the black hole that provides our universe adds more matter (probably at a non consistent rate) the bag gets fuller and fuller causing the bag to expand

kotss- i will asnwer your questions after my brain gets a chance to come down.

Also what college classes should i take to understand what i am talking about here.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
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First, the event horizon is relative to the black hole. This would be the last point where photons could reach before their lack of escape velocity would have them being drawn back for all practical purposes. So, standing at the event horizon, you would continue to see that person fall in for a little while before they disappeared. They would accelerate from that person and that person would see them going faster and faster. They would not reach c before they were either torn apart or fried to a crisp, so it would not matter.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
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Originally posted by: alienal99
Black holes are entirely a concept, and there are no known black holes.

Actually, we've discovered quite a few black holes.

Furthermore, as someone has already pointed out, if an object, such as the sun, or a group of objects, such as our solar system, were turned into a black hole,it would simply centralize all masses in our solar system to one single, infinitely small mass.

The size of a black hole is the volume enclosed by the event horizon, from which light cannot escape. We don't know what's inside the event horizon; while General Relativity predicts the existence of a singularity inside, it doesn't take into account quantum effects which may prevent a singularity from forming.

This would have the same effect on other solarsystems as our current solar system, and no other planetary bodies would feel a difference.

True.

Since gravity depends on mass, gravity cannot be created, yet it must spawn from some sort of mass, which already has a gravitiational impact.

Gravity couples to mass-energy, and of course gravitational fields have energy, so they can produce more gravity. It's this infinite regress that's the basic reason we don't have a quantum field theory of gravity, but do have one of electromagnetism since photons don't carry electromagnetic charge while gravitons do carry "gravitational charge" (i.e., mass.)
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: gsellis
First, the event horizon is relative to the black hole. This would be the last point where photons could reach before their lack of escape velocity would have them being drawn back for all practical purposes.

What do you mean by the event horizon being relative? The velocity of light, c, is a constant. The radius of the event horizon is given by the Schwartzchild radius, which is 2GM/c^2.

(For the technically minded, the Schwartzchild radius only applies to a non-charged non-rotating black hole. Such objects are Kerr-Newman black holes, and issues like frame dragging make the radius calculations more difficult.)
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
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Perhaps in addition to the physics warning labels at http://dorsey.freeshell.org/quotes/physics.html, which include such items as

"WARNING: This Product Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity,"

"WARNING: This Product Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the universe, Including the Products of Other Manufacturers, with a Force Proportional to the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance Between Them,"

and

"THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the Unlikely Event That This Merchandise Should Contact Antimatter in Any Form, a Catastrophic Explosion Will Result."

we should add

"WARNING: Compression of this product smaller than a sphere of radius 2GM/c^2 will result in the creation of a black hole."

We would of course calculate the size of the required sphere for each product to help the consumer.