Bitcoin mining is ruining 280x prices for us

[blackened23]

Has it occurred to you that some of us enjoy crypto currency mining as *gasp* a hobby? I personally find it fun to be hashing and chasing the Next Big Coin™. I am enjoying mining.

Hey that's great, I don't have an issue with that. Who am I to argue with you if you derive enjoyment from such things.

That said, *MY* argument comes from the perspective of someone who wants to play PC games. Someone who wants to buy a GPU for PC gaming and the best possible PC gaming experience. Buying a single GPU from either vendor isn't really going to make you money. Sure you can pay a GPU off in 6-8 months if you put the effort in. Or you can go full stupid with 4 mining rigs to make money. But i'm talking strictly of PC gaming, which is the same perspective of the OP of this thread.

For someone who wants to game, and someone who wants to buy a GPU for gaming, how ridiculous is this? Because some are trying to essentially suggest this to the OP:

1) Pay 100-150$ over MSRP for a GPU for mining
2) You won't make money off of one GPU to an appreciable extent, so now let's build 4 systems to make money with. Oh by the way, all GPUs 100-150$ over MSRP
3) Figure out the ins and outs of mining
4) Put time and effort into maintaining the new mining rigs
5) Put time and effort into studying which coins are optimal to mine on a DAILY BASIS.
6) To make an appreciable amount of money, you just wasted cash on 4 entirely new PCs.

In the meantime, what if the scryptcoin bubble pops? Oh well. The above is how you make money with mining. You don't make money with a single GPU, not an appreciable amount. Not at current difficulties. And even if you did, the OP just wants to game.

All for someone who just wants to sit down and enjoy PC GAMING. Come on. If you enjoy mining, that's fine. No issues here. But this is a perspective PC gaming purchase we're talking about. The OP of this thread is a PC gamer. Mining should not enter the equation, period.

 

[blastingcap]

Maybe we can all agree to disagree and let this thread die in peace.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Please let the "nvidia better software" discussion die. It's a played out false fud that people keep spreading that hasn't been true in several years.

 

[blackened23]

Please let the "nvidia better software" discussion die. It's a played out false fud that people keep spreading that hasn't been true in several years.

FUD? It's a very easy comparison. Look at the features AMD added as compared to the features nvidia added in the past three years. In other words, none (AMD) versus a lot (nvidia). Look at the outstanding bugs that AMD still has from three years ago, as opposed to the outstanding issues that nvidia has. It takes websites pestering AMD for AMD to even acknowledge stuff like CF DX9 or CF+EF frame pacing. It takes websites pestering AMD for them to even acknowledge the retail vs press variance that existed with reference 290s. And then begrudgingly "fix" it. I use "fix" loosely, since they only increased fan RPMs. Anyway, what if websites didn't call them out on it? Do you think AMD would even bother?

You can come to a very easy objective conclusion based on this, unless you're seeing what you want to see based on brand preference. The prevailing view is AMD is where you go if you want something cheap. Nothing wrong with that. I've bought plenty of AMD GPUs for the value proposition, and I still will. But cheap is for a reason. Software is one of those reasons. Only problem is, AMD isn't cheap right now (in the US) so there's no value proposition, therefore no reason to buy. Unless you want to mine.

 

[KingFatty]

I have to admit, I very much prefer the interaction with the Nvidia driver software, compared to AMD. It's just rather slick and impressive looking. AMD, in contrast, seems like it was programmed by an engineer that was just throwing things into a Windows 98 interface or something. Very non-intuitive and somewhat ugly.

 

[blastingcap]

This thread appears to be hopelessly off-topic.

 

[thilanliyan]

The "software" debate will rage on for years...

IMO, I've never felt disadvantaged using AMD, and never felt ecstatic using nVidia, they both seemed fairly equal to me. I'm not a hardcore gamer though and rarely play brand new games, so maybe that has something to do with it. The performance is so close that before the mining days I would decide mostly on whether my waterblock would fit a certain brand. More often than not, nVidia changed the hole spacing so my universal GPU block would not fit. ATI/AMD kept the hole spacing the same for so long, and I think it's still the same (only change was the rotated die of the 79XX cards). Sometimes even that didn't stop me from going nVidia though as I made a custom bracket for a GTX460 which had the odd rectangular hole spacing.

Which features nVidia GPUs have would you guys using them consider essential?

 

[blackened23]

Me? Personally? I use adaptive vsync in everything. My IPS panels overclock to 85hz. I use downsampling in old titles which is available via the nvidia driver. I use transparency supersampling as well for old titles, as well as FXAA for all titles that do not have native AA. AMD has MLAA of course, but the newest AMD bug is that it doesn't work in DX10 or DX11 with the newest betas and WHQL.

I also use shadowplay a few times a week, and physx in Borderlands 2 / all Batman games, but I do not use it in AC IV. Physx isn't so great in AC IV. Physx isn't a super big selling point with me, but I do like it in a few games. I certainly wouldn't buy nvidia solely on that. I also use TXAA in Black Ops 2. I do not use TXAA in other titles, because it is pretty demanding.

Is anything essential? I don't know, but it sure makes for a better gaming experience. I would argue that nvidia is always on point with fixing bugs in their drivers and releasing performance drivers for new games. They also have mGPU profiles for basically everything, whereas AMD generally only covers AAA titles. AMD does not have crossfire for AC IV. or AC2, AC brotherhood, Splinter Cell Blacklist, I could go on here. AAA titles? Covered, although they don't cover Ubi games. non AAA titles? Not so much. And then there's the crossfire issues with 280X and older GPUs that I mentioned earlier. I should add that AMD's crossfire is pretty terrible in Blizzard games. At least, it was in 2012 with 7970CF. The scaling was just...off. AMD doesn't do well in Blizzard games, at all, even in single GPU configurations (compared to NV). That may have been fixed since then, I haven't used 7970 in a while.

The point is, nvidia adds new features every few months to give gamers more flexibility. Which leads to a better gaming experience. Does AMD give you that option? No, they haven't added anything to improve their feature set in years. The last major features they had were MLAA and Eyefinity. As you know that was YEARS ago.

Like I said. There's a reason AMD can't charge what nvidia charges with GPUs. Software being one of those reasons. Most people won't consider an AMD GPU if it is the same price/performance as nvidia, because nvidia is just hands down better with software, quick fixes, and mGPU profiles for everything. I have and can ignore that when AMD offers a value proposition - i'll just use a single GPU configuration and be happy with that in a backup rig. But if AMD is the same price? I think you'll find most gamers will scoff at the notion of buying AMD when it is the same price/perf as nvidia.

I would *love* for AMD to catch up to nvidia in terms of software. AMD has the performance where it needs to be, and the current pricing is out of their control. Non performance related metrics have heavily favored nvidia ever since the GK104 was released, though. Nvidia has AMD beat here by a mile. Now the standard AMD fan response to this is bringing up the driver issues with the GTX 590 years ago. Someone should bring that up, it would be pretty hilarious. I'm expecting it.

 

[SiliconWars]

You realise AMD has been working on something called Mantle blackened? You know, that API that's about to spank Nvidia back into the dark ages? Do you think that just made itself? Do you think all these minor additions that Nvidia has added in the past couple of years can even approach the size and complexity of creating a new API from scratch?

We'll see just how many new features Nvidia adds in the next 2 years as they desperately clamour to get their own next-gen API out in order to stem the red tide.

 

[hclarkjr]

has anybody been able to get one for the " normal " price of around $300-$330? i have zoolert set to email me when they are in stock and at what price. have been some the last few days

 

[dguy6789]

I won't consider an AMD GPU if it is the same price/performance as nvidia, because I believe nvidia is just hands down better with software, quick fixes, and mGPU profiles for everything.

Fixed.

Pretty much all of those random features do next to nothing at best. To say AMD drivers are more bug prone or more likely to crash is entirely unsubstantiated FUD. Quick Google searches will net you endless complaints about the software from both companies. The fact is the average user will encounter no problems the vast majority of the time with either company and neither company provides a tangibly different gaming experience to the end user.

All that really matters is what your FPS is and how much you spent to get it; everything else is just a distraction. A card that is 5% faster without those random driver checkbox features would provide a better gaming experience.

 

[blackened23]

You realise AMD has been working on something called Mantle blackened? You know, that API that's about to spank Nvidia back into the dark ages? Do you think that just made itself? Do you think all these minor additions that Nvidia has added in the past couple of years can even approach the size and complexity of creating a new API from scratch?

We'll see just how many new features Nvidia adds in the next 2 years as they desperately clamour to get their own next-gen API out in order to stem the red tide.

Oh yeah. The Mantle that has 2 confirmed releases for 2014, right? BF4 and Thief? That one? Spanking nvidia to the dark ages indeed. That's quite the hyperbole based on two games that are confirmed releases for 2014. None of the other games have confirmed release dates. And we of course don't know what performance increase Mantle brings. I'll toss you a hint. 3dfx' glide didn't have a huge performance increase in most games back in the day, although it was faster. And with 3dfx specific image quality enhancements. And that was a more direct language than Mantle was.

I will concede that I forgot to mention Mantle as a software feature for AMD. But it doesn't have any games out using it right now - by that there is no game right at this moment which a user can enable Mantle in.. And we don't know what, if anything, it brings. In the meantime, you can just speculate all you want because it isn't worth mentioning until BF4 Mantle is released. When it is released, you can have your say in the mantle thread on this forum. Which is locked right now if i'm not mistaken.

All that said, I think it's great that AMD added Mantle as a software feature. This is the kind of thing that AMD needs to do to have parity with nvidia in terms of software - nvidia adds features every few months, and AMD should do that as well. If Mantle is great, and I hope it is, it will be GREAT for competition. Like I said. AMD needs to add software features like this. Let's not get carried away with the "push nvidia back to the dark ages" hyperbole nonsense though. Get real, man.

 

[SiliconWars]

Considering the entire industry can think and write about nothing else apart from Mantle that pretty much sums up what is wrong with most of your post.

You also "forgot" TressFX it seems. And AMD has been doing a lot of work on compute effects and shadows in games like Showdown, Hitman and Sleeping Dogs. You see for every game you mention that has Nvidia-specific effects, a different game exists for AMD. You're just not paying attention to the AMD games.

 

[Gloomy]

MLAA is working for me, in BF4 at least. Tried it a few days ago because someone mentioned it was better than the built-in FXAA. Maybe it is. I didn't stick around long enough to find out for sure, because when I saw how bad it mangled small text I NOPED straight out of the game

In my opinion, SMAA should be used in any game that supports sweetFX. Using the driver to force MLAA is a poor substitute. SMAA itself, is based on and is an improvement over MLAA. So why would you willingly use old tech?

IMO Nvidia holds only two big features over AMD. The first is the AA: they just support more games, and better. They also support easy downsampling in every game. This point is going to start fading pretty fast going forward, as it stops being feasible to support driver-level AA in every game, and we have to take whatever junk AA devs tack onto the game (see: AC4, BF4... built-in AA is usually terrible). The downsampling is always good.

The second is Shadowplay. There's just nothing quite like this for ease of use and quality and performance.

TressFX (and other tech like Forward+), is not an AMD feature. They are totally open. Just techniques for devs to implement how they please. They're not proprietary like PhysX, and will run on Nvidia hardware just fine. Someone should tell AMD that charity doesn't sell cards

I'm of the opinion that Mantle and TrueAudio are going to be like PhysX, not worth the time of day discussing when buying a card. Certainly not worth as much as Shadowplay and the increased IQ downsampling and good AA can bring to the table.

 

[SiliconWars]

All that said, I think it's great that AMD added Mantle as a software feature. This is the kind of thing that AMD needs to do to have parity with nvidia in terms of software - nvidia adds features every few months, and AMD should do that as well.

As mentioned before we had TressFX, recently updated to TressFX 2.0.

We got TrueAudio with Hawaii, Raptr very recently as well. Going back a bit (and non-gaming) we got Steady Video.

All of this happened well after MLAA and Eyefinity btw.

 

[IEC]

This thread appears to be hopelessly off-topic.

Yup.

Thread title should be changed too - blame scrypt mining instead

 

[blastingcap]

Can we blame Canada? ATI was a Canadian firm.

 

[IEC]

Can we blame Canada? ATI was a Canadian firm.

I'm okay with blaming Canada. Last time I crossed the border they mistreated my mother (tiny woman, utterly harmless and kind) and were quite rude. My opinion of Canadian border guards dropped markedly after that incident.

Back on topic:

There was a 7950 available for $185 AR within the past two days as well as a 280X at around MSRP. So OP don't lose hope if you *must* have a Radeon and keep an eye out for deals.

Or:
1) Buy a 770
2) Buy nothing and wait
3) Buy a console and play console games until the market corrects itself

 

[blastingcap]

Psst. I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame_Canada I have had ok experiences with border guards, but Vancouver drivers are a lot ruder that I expected.

 

[Skurge]

Me? Personally? I use adaptive vsync in everything. My IPS panels overclock to 85hz. I use downsampling in old titles which is available via the nvidia driver. I use transparency supersampling as well for old titles, as well as FXAA for all titles that do not have native AA. AMD has MLAA of course, but the newest AMD bug is that it doesn't work in DX10 or DX11 with the newest betas and WHQL.

I also use shadowplay a few times a week, and physx in Borderlands 2 / all Batman games, but I do not use it in AC IV. Physx isn't so great in AC IV. Physx isn't a super big selling point with me, but I do like it in a few games. I certainly wouldn't buy nvidia solely on that. I also use TXAA in Black Ops 2. I do not use TXAA in other titles, because it is pretty demanding.

Is anything essential? I don't know, but it sure makes for a better gaming experience. I would argue that nvidia is always on point with fixing bugs in their drivers and releasing performance drivers for new games. They also have mGPU profiles for basically everything, whereas AMD generally only covers AAA titles. AMD does not have crossfire for AC IV. or AC2, AC brotherhood, Splinter Cell Blacklist, I could go on here. AAA titles? Covered, although they don't cover Ubi games. non AAA titles? Not so much. And then there's the crossfire issues with 280X and older GPUs that I mentioned earlier. I should add that AMD's crossfire is pretty terrible in Blizzard games. At least, it was in 2012 with 7970CF. The scaling was just...off. AMD doesn't do well in Blizzard games, at all, even in single GPU configurations (compared to NV). That may have been fixed since then, I haven't used 7970 in a while.

The point is, nvidia adds new features every few months to give gamers more flexibility. Which leads to a better gaming experience. Does AMD give you that option? No, they haven't added anything to improve their feature set in years. The last major features they had were MLAA and Eyefinity. As you know that was YEARS ago.

Like I said. There's a reason AMD can't charge what nvidia charges with GPUs. Software being one of those reasons. Most people won't consider an AMD GPU if it is the same price/performance as nvidia, because nvidia is just hands down better with software, quick fixes, and mGPU profiles for everything. I have and can ignore that when AMD offers a value proposition - i'll just use a single GPU configuration and be happy with that in a backup rig. But if AMD is the same price? I think you'll find most gamers will scoff at the notion of buying AMD when it is the same price/perf as nvidia.

I would *love* for AMD to catch up to nvidia in terms of software. AMD has the performance where it needs to be, and the current pricing is out of their control. Non performance related metrics have heavily favored nvidia ever since the GK104 was released, though. Nvidia has AMD beat here by a mile. Now the standard AMD fan response to this is bringing up the driver issues with the GTX 590 years ago. Someone should bring that up, it would be pretty hilarious. I'm expecting it.

You should probably specify that any feature nVidia adds is nvidia only. Whereas features AMD adds work on both. Forward+, TressFX, Lighting, shadowing techniques in various games. So sure you can claim nvidia has more software features when you should be saying that have more software features exclusive to Nvidia. Not to mention you have been bashing TrueAudio as being useless since it was announced and yet Physx is usefull as a value add? That is plain Bias. TrueAudio is more exciting for me than physx as I am an audio guy, but you don't acknowledge that. As for SLI and crossfire, there are plenty of games where SLI doesn't work, but crossfire does. 4K shows significant scaling issues with SLI Also how about the fact that there are a ton PC ports that AMD has helped improve performance and visuals in and it works equally well on both vendors. That is why my money goes to AMD and not Nvidia.

As for Manlte, there are actually 4 games confirmed for Mantle not 2. Nixxes is behind mantle so you can be sure every sqaure enix game going forward will use Mantle.

Buy by all means continue your crusade.

 

[taq8ojh]

So much thread crapping. I'm out.

 

[Fastx]

I needed a card for the interim for now so I ended up going with the MSI 770 Gaming posted in this thread. I ended up getting it on sale and after promo discount/credit for $270.00 and once I e-bay the games should be around $225.00 not bad. I just got the card and in the little gaming I done so far (1080) I 'm happy with it also so far and I like Nvidia's adaptive V Sync in BF4 definitely makes difference with tearing imo! The card is very quiet, with stock fan profile the highest temps I seen so far gaming is 73c, avg's around 70-71 in C3 @1241 and idles at 28-30c@0.850.

One other thing I noticed is that with one or two monitors are hooked up the temps are the same (30c) which is surprising for me from my past experience's with cards as two monitors always raised the temps. I also like the gaming app modes (silent/gaming/oc) software options with just one click and the card boost out of the box to 1241 using oc mode in MSI gaming app for gaming. Yes you can do the same with AB/profiles but for someone who doesn't use AB its pretty cool and as easy as just one click (silent/gaming/oc) of the mouse and your done. This seems so far to be a pretty nice card for the money and 1080 gaming imo.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Looks to be the same two posters constantly stirring up the pot. I won't mention names but it's painfully obvious who.

 

[KingFatty]

Seeing how mining ruined prices for AMD, now I'm wondering, will Nvidia modify their next architectures to totally dominate in mining and wipe the floor with AMD?

 

[Fastx]

I been waiting for and wanting a AIB 290 mainly do to mantle/BF4, but also the new CF tech, 4GB is nice and supposedly in the $400-450 price range before the mining hit, but will not even consider it at these prices. I'd go GTX 780 (around 450.00 range) with current 290 prices without a doubt if the prices don't come down. I bought this 770 as an interim card till we see what happens in the next couple months, but so far I don't know I might end up keeping this card longer than I expected from how its playing my current games so far.