Bit-Tech does an X1900 roundup: AIW vs. XT vs. XTX vs. 512 GTX

[Painman]

Originally posted by: n7
I don't get what all the loud cooler complaints are about.

Maybe i just have too many case fans, but my X1800XT's fan doesn't bother me much, even when it speeds up under heavy load in games like FEAR.

Now let me make one thing clear:
For me, it doesn't speed up all that much (using the auto fan speed).

If i manually turn it up though, holy crap it does get insanely loud.

However, it never seems to even speed up to more than half its speed for me...so i dunno.

Are you guys all running yours @ max RPM for some reason?

My replacement card may tell a different story, I'll see when it gets here. My original one almost certainly had some contact problems between the heatsink and the GPU (see that XS thread I linked to above - the OP there ended up with a card that did EXACTLY what mine was doing) - with the GPU hitting infernal temps via lack of effective cooling, it makes sense that the fan would crank up to high speeds in a vain attempt to cool it down.

Hopefully the replacement will be assembled properly, and less fan noise will be the result - but I'll have to see when it gets here.

Re: watercooling - It's not something I really need, I'm an old hand @ air and I can set that up very well. I just want something to tinker with

 

[yacoub]

Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I'll wait for STOCK aftermarket X1900XT cooling or just pick up a 7800GT when cheaper.

Btw, I don't know about COMPLETELY passively cooled GPUs either. They always seem to run too hot and cause artifacts and such in most people's reviews. Besides, completely passive cooling then requires more and faster spinning case fans. I'd rather keep my case as-is and just get a GPU with an AC/Zalman cooler on it stock since those have fans just much quieter fans than OEM card design coolers.

That said, I'm a bit disappointed in the cooler on my X800XL. It's the Sapphire Ultimate with the Zalman cooler but the stupid fan is ballbearing and clicks a bit. =\

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: yacoub
Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I agree with this. The gains you get by OCing a high end part just don't justify the risk 99% of the time, it's not like you can step up a resolution because you wrench 10% more performance out of your already high clocked card. I think small OCs on second tier cards to save $100 and get top tier performance, or big OCs on low to midrange cards are the only OCs that make sense. (unless you're wealthy enough to buy a new high end card without caring, and I'm not)

 

[nib95]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: yacoub
Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I agree with this. The gains you get by OCing a high end part just don't justify the risk 99% of the time, it's not like you can step up a resolution because you wrench 10% more performance out of your already high clocked card. I think small OCs on second tier cards to save $100 and get top tier performance, or big OCs on low to midrange cards are the only OCs that make sense. (unless you're wealthy enough to buy a new high end card without caring, and I'm not)

Wont Nvidia just give you a new one for free though?

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

The main negative thing they had to say about the ATi cards was about Crossfire:

The one reason not to get a Radeon X1900XTX at the moment would be ATI's CrossFire technology. It seems a little strange that ATI chose to use the Radeon X1900XT clock speeds on the CrossFire Edition card, as it means that the Radeon X1900XTX will be clocked down to the same 625/1450MHz, rendering the additional cost for an XTX a little pointless if you've got the vision of moving towards CrossFire later down the line.

Thats is not the case though, at least not reported by other reviews. The clocks do not change, by sticking in a slower card. They operate Independent of each other. I think its strange ATi doesnt have an XTX CF card. As reviews always state its a XTX Crossfire combo, when in fact, its not. Its misleading, but ATi only has themselves to blame for that.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

No more than calling a 5800U a dust-buster or a hoover. Noise is noise, whether it's ATi or nVidia doing it. Unfortunately certain fanbois have trouble understanding this basic fact.

The fact is the X1800/X1900 is much louder compared to current competing nVidia solutions.

Except the 5800U ran at that noise level in all 3d gaming. The X18/1900's do not. Only at startup does it run at full speed, so you saying it has a 68db noise level is misleading, as that is very rarely the case.

"Much louder"? Yeah, when its on full speed, but as I said, thats hardly ever the case. Mine has never kicked into 2nd gear, much less 3rd gear. It is very quiet, and exhausts the air out of the case, where it should be. I dont have a good enough memory, to tell for certain that it is as quiet as my GTX when it had stock cooling. But I do pride myself on a very quiet, and fast PC. Probably the best noise/speed ratio around here, aside from watercooling.

Would I like a quiter fan/heatsink combo from ATi? Sure, but as it is, is also has a few key advantages over NV's solution. Such as bring in the air from the front of the card, so that putting another PCI card (such as a sound card) just above doesnt kill the air flow, and raise temps by doing so. And as I mentioned, it puts the hot air out of the case, where it should be.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: n7
I don't get what all the loud cooler complaints are about.

Maybe i just have too many case fans, but my X1800XT's fan doesn't bother me much, even when it speeds up under heavy load in games like FEAR.

Now let me make one thing clear:
For me, it doesn't speed up all that much (using the auto fan speed).

If i manually turn it up though, holy crap it does get insanely loud.

However, it never seems to even speed up to more than half its speed for me...so i dunno.

Are you guys all running yours @ max RPM for some reason?

Mine runs too warm at the stock fan speed, so I ramp it up, but ~60%, I couldn't tolerate this fan at full throttle. Mine is tolerable in my noisy lliving room, in my noisy rig, but totally unacceptable in a quiet environment, I'd have to go with aftermarket cooling like I am for my X1800 XL.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: yacoub
Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I agree with this. The gains you get by OCing a high end part just don't justify the risk 99% of the time, it's not like you can step up a resolution because you wrench 10% more performance out of your already high clocked card. I think small OCs on second tier cards to save $100 and get top tier performance, or big OCs on low to midrange cards are the only OCs that make sense. (unless you're wealthy enough to buy a new high end card without caring, and I'm not)

Wont Nvidia just give you a new one for free though?

Even if that were true, I wouldn't destroy high end hardware for the trivial gains of OCing.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Mine runs too warm at the stock fan speed, so I ramp it up, but ~60%, I couldn't tolerate this fan at full throttle. Mine is tolerable in my noisy lliving room, in my noisy rig, but totally unacceptable in a quiet environment, I'd have to go with aftermarket cooling like I am for my X1800 XL.

What's too warm?

Mine runs very hot compared to all the other cards i've had, but i figured that if ATi couldn't figure out when to throttle & speed up the fan according to temps, who could...
Mine's idling @ 63C btw...certainly cozy...

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: rbV5
Mine runs too warm at the stock fan speed, so I ramp it up, but ~60%, I couldn't tolerate this fan at full throttle. Mine is tolerable in my noisy lliving room, in my noisy rig, but totally unacceptable in a quiet environment, I'd have to go with aftermarket cooling like I am for my X1800 XL.

What's too warm?

Mine runs very hot compared to all the other cards i've had, but i figured that if ATi couldn't figure out when to throttle & speed up the fan according to temps, who could...
Mine's idling @ 63C btw...certainly cozy...

That sounds about right, mines at 52C at idle now. I dunno whats too warm, but it will also hit near 80C at full load in a demanding title using the dynamic fan control (auto), but I haven't seen it over 74C just using a static 60% fanspeed, and 10C cooler at idle is more comfortable for me.

I wish I could alter the fan settings in overdrive like you can in ATITOOL, because I feel the stock ATI settings aren't suitable for my setup. ATITOOL was buggy on my system, so I've switched to Rivatuner (love the hardware monitoring in RT) however it doesn't offer dynamic fan control unless you use the auto settng, which is simply ATI's settings.

 

[yacoub]

Hmm interesting. My X800XL (Sapphire w/ Zalman stock) idles at ~40C, ramps up to around 55C in intense gaming like FEAR. This is with ATI Tool dynamically altering speeds per my settings.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: Painman
Well, the fan IS kinda loud... I could hear it throttling up and down while I was gaming with the 1900. At least it's fairly quiet when the card is idle, that matters to me the most. ATi still could have put a better fan on a $500 card w/o increasing the price too much. At least it exhausts all the blistering heat to the outside.

I'll put an aftermarket unit on mine as soon as someone markets a decent one that also exhausts 100% outside. I haven't seen one yet.

id love for AIB to just commision VF700's or something, id gladly send my money + £20 to any company that would employ this over going with the stock blower.

afterall when paying £400 for a new card whats another £20 if its gonna make it A) quieter B) cooler

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: rbV5
That sounds about right, mines at 52C at idle now. I dunno whats too warm, but it will also hit near 80C at full load in a demanding title using the dynamic fan control (auto), but I haven't seen it over 74C just using a static 60% fanspeed, and 10C cooler at idle is more comfortable for me.

I wish I could alter the fan settings in overdrive like you can in ATITOOL, because I feel the stock ATI settings aren't suitable for my setup. ATITOOL was buggy on my system, so I've switched to Rivatuner (love the hardware monitoring in RT) however it doesn't offer dynamic fan control unless you use the auto settng, which is simply ATI's settings.

Wow, i just noticed you have some very similar components in your system as mine.
same mobo, CPU, same amount of RAM, same dvd burner, same video card

What cooler are you now using on yours?

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: BFG10K

so, IF ATi were to make a passively cooled xT, you'd consider it?

I'd do more than consider it, I'd buy it.

and what is wrong with aftermarket coolers?

I don't want to spend $600 on a card only to tinker with it and have it blow up in my face while not being covered by a warranty.

I'm not a manufacturing assembly plant, I'm an end-user. To that end I expect boxed products to be in a usable state straight off the shelf.

If a vendor can't design acceptable cooling solutions for their cards they don't get my money, regardless of whether it's ATi or nVidia.

that makes sense if you don't like to tinker.

actually, the aftermarket makers should be able to guarantee that their parts won't affect the Card's warranty. . . . OEM car parts do.

and perhaps when ATi gets their yields up and their temps down - perhaps on the die shrink - you may get your wish.

looks like i never will for AGP

c'mon apoppin time to jump ship send that AGP system to a nice home, and get on the PCI-E train

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: rbV5
That sounds about right, mines at 52C at idle now. I dunno whats too warm, but it will also hit near 80C at full load in a demanding title using the dynamic fan control (auto), but I haven't seen it over 74C just using a static 60% fanspeed, and 10C cooler at idle is more comfortable for me.

I wish I could alter the fan settings in overdrive like you can in ATITOOL, because I feel the stock ATI settings aren't suitable for my setup. ATITOOL was buggy on my system, so I've switched to Rivatuner (love the hardware monitoring in RT) however it doesn't offer dynamic fan control unless you use the auto settng, which is simply ATI's settings.

Wow, i just noticed you have some very similar components in your system as mine.
same mobo, CPU, same amount of RAM, same dvd burner, same video card

What cooler are you now using on yours?

They are very similar aren't they, LOL. I'm using stock cooling on both the graphics and CPU, and it'll likely stay that way on the vcard for now, but this retail AMD cooler is a bit over the top even if it does keep the CPU plenty cool at 2.5GHz. I damn near sprung for a Croosfire Edition refurb for $415 at Newegg yesterday, but I assume it would be sans Dongle and I don't see on at shopATI yet. This rig is plenty fast single card though, so no hurry

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
I learn something new every day :*( thanks for destroying my dreams :! Now i will just go with path of Watercooling :! even if i am scared of water leak :! its time

Me too man, maybe I'm not gonna go for the Accelero X2 in the end

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: tuteja1986
I learn something new every day :*( thanks for destroying my dreams :! Now i will just go with path of Watercooling :! even if i am scared of water leak :! its time

Message me on MSN and I'll walk you through it. Setting up water cooling is easy.

Can you do the same for me?

How much are GPU water cooling kits these days?

if your considering WC and your n00b at it, the Zalman Reserator 1 PLUS (the plus is important) is very capable, and silent.

ive seen it more than adequatly cool a 2.4Ghz A64 and 2 6600GT's in SLI. it cooled the cpu just the same as the CNPS7000Cu (zalman) and dropped the gpu temps nearly 20 dgrees.

and its a sinch to set up.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: yacoub
Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I agree with this. The gains you get by OCing a high end part just don't justify the risk 99% of the time, it's not like you can step up a resolution because you wrench 10% more performance out of your already high clocked card. I think small OCs on second tier cards to save $100 and get top tier performance, or big OCs on low to midrange cards are the only OCs that make sense. (unless you're wealthy enough to buy a new high end card without caring, and I'm not)

Wont Nvidia just give you a new one for free though?

uncalled for..... this place doesnt need to keep beating that dead horse. this is not a thread about AEG, this is a thread discussing Bit-techs excellent article, and the cooling solution ATi have chosen for the X1000 series.

if you wanna troll like that.....piss off

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Rollo


Even if that were true, I wouldn't destroy high end hardware for the trivial gains of OCing.

I think overclocking has gained a bad name for some reason. Either all the kids who try to max the volts on the stock cooler start a thread about frying their hardware, or people don't bother to read all the threads about overclocking successes. I, and many others, have never experienced any longevity problems by ocing our hardware. I get the feeling people are of the opinion that even thinking about overclocking will cause your hardware to explode.

As far as the gains being trivial, I'd have to politely disagree. Look at Bit-Tech's results. They had to drop the settings quite often when comparing the X1900XT and the XTX. If I can get better IQ by a small oc (XT to XTX speeds is very small) than I wouldn't consider that trivial. By overclocking my 7800GTs I was able to play FEAR at 1920x1200 whereas at stock it was a bit choppy at that res.

I understand that you don't like overclocking Rollo and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Just don't make is sound like there are no noticable gains and that there's a high probability of frying your hardware if you do.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: BFG10K

so, IF ATi were to make a passively cooled xT, you'd consider it?

I'd do more than consider it, I'd buy it.

and what is wrong with aftermarket coolers?

I don't want to spend $600 on a card only to tinker with it and have it blow up in my face while not being covered by a warranty.

I'm not a manufacturing assembly plant, I'm an end-user. To that end I expect boxed products to be in a usable state straight off the shelf.

If a vendor can't design acceptable cooling solutions for their cards they don't get my money, regardless of whether it's ATi or nVidia.

that makes sense if you don't like to tinker.

actually, the aftermarket makers should be able to guarantee that their parts won't affect the Card's warranty. . . . OEM car parts do.

and perhaps when ATi gets their yields up and their temps down - perhaps on the die shrink - you may get your wish.

looks like i never will for AGP

c'mon apoppin time to jump ship send that AGP system to a nice home, and get on the PCI-E train

in a year or two. . . probably to PCIe2 and skip this gen of overpriced PC HW . . . right now my x850xt and a PS3 or 360 will somehow "get me by" until then.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
BFG, I think the truth is you're just angry that you bought a GT (the shimmering must be getting to you) and regret not waiting for an XT. Don't worry, I can see through your trolling.

Joker, this really isn't necessary. In fact, it's wholly unnecessary. BFG isn't trolling about the HSF noise, he's just more sensitive to it than you are. I can sympathize, as I've become as intolerant of noisy fans as I am of noisy HDs.

Yeah that is pretty stupid. You know the X1800/X1900 heatsink has a really good design. The only real flaw is that they chose to use a crappy fan. If they added a bigger fan that was quieter nobody would bitch about it.

See, you acknowledge the "crappy" fan yourself. The next step is to acknowledge that BFG's bitching about it is as valid as bitching about crappy performance or crappy drivers.

nib95, please, if you want to troll Rollo, just do so in the big thread, like everyone else (including me). Let's contain the hate to one trash(talking)heap.

That being said, posted comments about the X1800's and X1900's fan noise seem to vary wildly, probably with the reviewer's/user's sensitivity and environment, tho we also have to consider probably hugely varying ambient temps and case airflows. Most dB readings show ATI's high-end cooler to be louder than most competing designs, tho, even though you'd think its very design (removing hot air from the case, so not recirculating it over the heatsink) would allow it to run the fan slower.

I think we can all agree that the X1800/1900 cooler isn't for the SPCR crowd.

 

[nib95]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: nib95

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: yacoub
Btw, I'm also with BF10K when it comes to not modding GPUs. They simply don't make them easy to mod (usually involves crazy cleaning and scraping off of glue/coolingpaste and such. Too much trouble and I can't risk it on a $600 card. I tried it once on a 9600Pro and ended up getting frustrated and selling it for a loss and buying another one because I couldn't get the stupid aftermarket cooler to fit/work properly.

I agree with this. The gains you get by OCing a high end part just don't justify the risk 99% of the time, it's not like you can step up a resolution because you wrench 10% more performance out of your already high clocked card. I think small OCs on second tier cards to save $100 and get top tier performance, or big OCs on low to midrange cards are the only OCs that make sense. (unless you're wealthy enough to buy a new high end card without caring, and I'm not)

Wont Nvidia just give you a new one for free though?

uncalled for..... this place doesnt need to keep beating that dead horse. this is not a thread about AEG, this is a thread discussing Bit-techs excellent article, and the cooling solution ATi have chosen for the X1000 series.

if you wanna troll like that.....piss off

What, I meant it.
If he gets them free why not OC them?

I wonder if AEG would still replace them,and in any case, you know the old saying, those who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.
I suggest you watch your language.

 

[rbV5]

That being said, posted comments about the X1800's and X1900's fan noise seem to vary wildly, probably with the reviewer's/user's sensitivity and environment, tho we also have to consider probably hugely varying ambient temps and case airflows. Most dB readings show ATI's high-end cooler to be louder than most competing designs, tho, even though you'd think its very design (removing hot air from the case, so not recirculating it over the heatsink) would allow it to run the fan slower.

I think you got it 100% right Pete. I think the "design" is great, thats why I felt that it "looks" like it should do a better than it does. I think the fanspeed is also very low at idle for what it is expected to do, and at low speed it is very quiet. Users with excellent cooling may never have the fan spin up alot, therefore it is quiet, other users maybe a little shocked at their idle temps if they haven't looked at them, I know I was uncomfortable with +60C at idle.

 

[BFG10K]

First of all, I got a PM from MrJim asking about the Asus 7800GT I have. If you're reading this thread enable your PMing so I can respond.

Failing that, here is a review of the card which details the cooling solution.

Chances are to get that 'passively' cooled X1800 you probably had to pay a premium on the initial price anyway.

Cost isn't a factor and never was. The issue is tinkering with expensive video cards that are not covered by warranty after said tinkering. Again I'm not a manufacturing assembly plant, I'm an end user and to that end I expect video cards to be finished out of the box. I don't buy half-finished cards so I can mod them.

I admit, ATI should have re-designed the stock HSF on the X1900, but what can you do?

Not buy them.

"Much louder"? Yeah, when its on full speed, but as I said, thats hardly ever the case.

According to most dB readings I've seen it's much higher than comparable nVidia cards so either it spins up to full speed more than you'd admit or it's still loud even when it's at a lower gear. If even Rage3D commented that it's much louder than a 7800GTX it's almost certain to be the case.

and exhausts the air out of the case, where it should be.

That's fine but they should've put a larger and slower rotating fan on there like the GTX 512.

 

[Zebo]

nm

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: n7
I don't get what all the loud cooler complaints are about.

Maybe i just have too many case fans, but my X1800XT's fan doesn't bother me much, even when it speeds up under heavy load in games like FEAR.

Now let me make one thing clear:
For me, it doesn't speed up all that much (using the auto fan speed).

If i manually turn it up though, holy crap it does get insanely loud.

However, it never seems to even speed up to more than half its speed for me...so i dunno.

Are you guys all running yours @ max RPM for some reason?

My replacement card may tell a different story, I'll see when it gets here. My original one almost certainly had some contact problems between the heatsink and the GPU (see that XS thread I linked to above - the OP there ended up with a card that did EXACTLY what mine was doing) - with the GPU hitting infernal temps via lack of effective cooling, it makes sense that the fan would crank up to high speeds in a vain attempt to cool it down.

Hopefully the replacement will be assembled properly, and less fan noise will be the result - but I'll have to see when it gets here.

Re: watercooling - It's not something I really need, I'm an old hand @ air and I can set that up very well. I just want something to tinker with

Of course you want WC.. even the quietest air products can't even come close to competing both on a noise level and cooling level. WC is much quieter - can be setup silent if you get a large enough rad like mine a 3 x 120 BIP III, sold at DD.

What to expect from watercooling?


There are some kits I'd recommend like swifttech and will set you back less than $200. Ideally you'd want your radiator fans acting as your case fans too thus emlinating case fans.

Here's what I'd recommed all at jabtech

- Dual Rad Swiftech MCR-220 Radiator - Black $37
- Swiftech MCP350? 12 VDC Pump - $75
- *********Water Block special ******CPU = Swiftech Apogee Extreme + VGA = MCW60 + 8 Copper ram sinks for VGA $90
- Two YATE LOON 120mm Case Fan - D12SL-12 (these are silent at 10V) $12
- Two 120mm Black wire fan grills $2.78

Total $216.78

Now all you need is some 1/2 tube at homedepot - cut two 120mm holes in top of your case - install. I did my sons in like a afternoon. Text Notice the rear case fan is unplugged.. not needed anymore.

 

[5150Joker]

I was trying to fit my Thermaltake PSU into my case but unfortunately the BIX II radiator I have up top was interfering. So I did the next best thing to get SLi PSU http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2484/slipsu2ld.jpg

Got all my HD's, water pump and DVD drive hooked up to it right now. I need to go get a PCI-e adapter because I really want to hook up my X1900 to it so it can have it's own PSU.

Edit: Here's my mod gallery: http://clan786.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=11