Bio-Fuels will only work when they are profitable

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052


Biodiesel has slightly less energy content than petroleum diesel (about 5% less IIRC) but I don't see that as much of an impediment.

Even if that was true I dont see how that would make a performance difference in a diesel engine though.

Sounds like oil industry FUD for those that have always used gasoline engines.

It should not produce a noticeable loss of power.

It is a scientific fact, as I recall.

Yeah, I think it has to do with how diesel does not burn the fuel in the same way, you get what you get as far as octanes, where gasoline has a carb that adjusts, I need coffee and I am a bit rusty on engines as I havent owned a car I have worked on as my own since mid 90s.

I know I cannot recall seeing diesel sold by octane off the top of my head.

Howstuffworks ftw

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.

It's about $500 to modify a modern engine to run 50/50. It'll drop the horsepower 1/3 or so AFAIK.

I do not know of a 50/50 kit but,
Bio cars suffer no performance penalty for switching over to bio once the engine is warm at all. (at least not the one I have driven) As far as I know diesel engines do not work like that.You do need to switch the line back over to real diesel to start it back up before you turn the engine off though.

I lived out of a kit modded grease bus like you mentioned for 6 months about 4 years ago (and hotels of course) and we went all up and down the west coast a few times on store bought corn oil (kinda expensive but probably cheaper then diesel nowdays) or whatever we could get from restaurants grease waste. (you have to strain it though first before using it as fuel) you cannot tell a performance difference when you flip the switch. Find a mexican place that makes their own tortillias and you are SET!

The guy whos bus it was told me it was around 700$ for the kit and it was a major pain to install, and it only works on certain diesel vehicles that can take it. (the bus we used was a early 80s VW camper)

I also know someone with a little vw rabbit type car that uses bio and have another friend with a old chevy truck that uses it.

It smells like whatever you got from the resturaunt behind you cooking, if you ever smell fresh french fries or fish and chips at a light, betcha the car in front of you is a bio.

From what I have read hemp is a good source of oil too, better then corn. I am not sure this is true or not though.

Well, I was talking about Ethanol only, not biodiesel - I don't know that much about the latter.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Well, I was talking about Ethanol only, not biodiesel - I don't know that much about the latter.

I dunno about ethanol to be honest, bio is pretty cheap to mod and you don't need any gas pump so I guess that is why ethanol is not really popular with the do it yourself crowd. *shrug*

Isn't ethanol for gasoline type engines? Different I guess

 

[techs]

From what I have read and seen un-modified cars can run on up to 15 percent ethanol.
Flex fuel cars can run on up to 85 percent ethanol. The only difference in a flex fuel car is that the cars computer senses the exhaust gas and changes the timings and fuel mixture for the fuel being used.
I have heard the cost of a flex fuel car is either 100 dollars more, or no additional cost.
In Brazil, flex fuel cars are increasingly coming with a small additional fuel tank for pure gasoline. When the weather is cold the car automatically starts on real gas and switches over in few minutes to ethanol. This is because ethanol doesn't work real well in a cold engine.

 

[desy]

The issue is not wheather organic methods work or are cost effective cause bottom line is they are and will continue to improve.

The issue is that you can't make enough to replace oil, the demand is just too high.
Here in Canada and I work for dept of agriculture and we have looked at it is if something like Iogen cellulosic fuel works where you can chuck the whole plant into the process, we could meet about 30% of our oil fuel needs.
Any improvements in technology conversion and effeciency of vehicles are going to be offset by increasing domestic demand of growing your economy.

We need to take a real hard look at conservation as the best option cause to replace liquid fuel as easy as we get it now is going to cause some real headaches and our hope
really lies in using a lot less.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: msparish
Sugarcane is much, much more efficient for the production of ethanol than corn. Not really even in the same ballpark with corn. Ethanol from sugarcane is already economically viable.

switchgrass which we have great potential to produce yields about 20 x corn
Text

 

[desy]

The problem with hemp and switchgrass and I think both are wonderful options is this

"Some Alabama farmers joke that there's no soil in Alabama to farm?two centuries of King Cotton and steady erosion haven't left much behind"

Once swithgrass or hemp depletes the soil of what it needs then what? We haven't really figured out sustainable agriculture yet and even those millions of acres still won't produce enough to replace oil. The earth has a 3 billion barrel a day habit , currently they make 3 billion a year so at 25% of world consumption the US would have to produce 275 Billion barrels a yr to meet domestic demand so right now you can suplly 1/100 th of what you need.
See the problem in that? And that excludes any growth in consumption and thats not factoring in yet that isn't a net figure of 3 billion just what was produced not what went into production which is still traditionally dino fuel.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: desy
The problem with hemp and switchgrass and I think both are wonderful options is this

"Some Alabama farmers joke that there's no soil in Alabama to farm?two centuries of King Cotton and steady erosion haven't left much behind"

Once swithgrass or hemp depletes the soil of what it needs then what? We haven't really figured out sustainable agriculture yet and even those millions of acres still won't produce enough to replace oil. The earth has a 3 billion barrel a day habit , currently they make 3 billion a year so at 25% of world consumption the US would have to produce 275 Billion barrels a yr to meet domestic demand so right now you can suplly 1/100 th of what you need.
See the problem in that? And that excludes any growth in consumption and thats not factoring in yet that isn't a net figure of 3 billion just what was produced not what went into production which is still traditionally dino fuel.

The US has been looking at algae as a potential feedstock and the predicted yields are FAR higher than any other source (thousands of gallons per acre instead of hundreds). The cultivation of algae can take place using wastewater and CO2 captured from power plants or other industrial facilities.

 

[desy]

I've read a little about that, again its making cellulosic a reality
Issues
A getting the results out of the enzymes they use 'better enzymes needed'
B Wasn't there some kind of waste product issue?

Bu it would make sense, I know algae grows like hell with a little residual fertilizer draining from feilds into our water supplies . The problem with crops is its a 'thin layer' meaning you have to drive around a lot to grow it gather it up and transport to a facility.

Algae would be a much thicker layer and easy to suck up through pumps than driving all over the surface of the earth to get it and transport it.
Link me up!

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: K1052
The US has the ability to meet its own fuel needs if prices reach that high (or even stay at current levels).

Biodiesel, ethanol, coal liquefaction, domestic petroleum, oil shale/sands all become profitable at these levels and are sitting right here inside our borders.

Don't forget clean burning cheap propane! Oh wait, the EPA regulated that out of business.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: desy
I've read a little about that, again its making cellulosic a reality
Issues
A getting the results out of the enzymes they use 'better enzymes needed'
B Wasn't there some kind of waste product issue?

Bu it would make sense, I know algae grows like hell with a little residual fertilizer draining from feilds into our water supplies . The problem with crops is its a 'thin layer' meaning you have to drive around a lot to grow it gather it up and transport to a facility.

Algae would be a much thicker layer and easy to suck up through pumps than driving all over the surface of the earth to get it and transport it.
Link me up!

They are talking about using a series of clear tubes to grow the algae instead of open ponds.

Blog with picture and decent explanation

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052


Biodiesel has slightly less energy content than petroleum diesel (about 5% less IIRC) but I don't see that as much of an impediment.

Even if that was true I dont see how that would make a performance difference in a diesel engine though.

Sounds like oil industry FUD for those that have always used gasoline engines.

Yeah, I didn't really elaborate much. Biodiesel (100% bio) does have a net reduction, but it's slight - so slight you'd really only see it on paper.

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: msparish
Sugarcane is much, much more efficient for the production of ethanol than corn. Not really even in the same ballpark with corn. Ethanol from sugarcane is already economically viable.

I thought I saw something on Brazil using ethanol for most of their fuel. They've been working on the solution for something like 20 - 30 years now. They're about to gain fuel independence or something close to it.

Yeah, here you go: Linky

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Amplifier

Originally posted by: da loser
the only good thing about biofuels is that it diversifies our energy sources, since natural gas is available in more places

my only hope is that this will cause the removal of all farm subsidies, but i think that's too much to ask

Maybe if Coolidge were in office

So...when did our government lose its collective balls and ability to do the right thing? In a global economy, this kind of price fixing just cripples us in the long term.

Did Coolidge get another term after that?

 

[eilute]

Let's just hope we don't wind up using ethanol that was made from wheat that was grown in Iran.