Bio-Fuels will only work when they are profitable

[RichardE]

Central America Eyes Sweet Alternative to Oil

In other biofuel news, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala are making moves toward increased ethanol and biodiesel, taking lessons from Brazil and Colombia.

Sugar-producing countries are looking to ethanol to breathe new life into the decades-old sugar industry. The fuel, also known as ethyl alcohol, is made from a sugar by-product and then mixed with gasoline to reduce pollution and lower prices.

All the small Central American economies are net oil importers, and record high oil prices are causing economic hardship for local businesses and consumers in a region where a quarter of the population lives on less than $1 a day.

In Honduras, sugar producers are planting 27,200 acres of new sugar cane to provide raw materials for two ethanol refineries.

The Honduran government is also promoting a four-year project to grow 494,000 acres of African palm, a tree with oil that can be converted into biodiesel.

Costa Rica?s state-run national gasoline refinery RECOPE began a pilot project last month to add 7.5 percent ethanol to gasoline at 63 gas stations in the country.

The program, funded in part by Brazilian oil company Petrobras, cost $15 million and will eventually be expanded across the country in an attempt to bring down Costa Rica?s oil costs, which jumped by 45 percent between 2004 and 2005.

Oil prices and environmental concerns are expanding worldwide markets for ethanol, since burning alcohol instead of gasoline reduces carbon emissions by more than 80 percent.

Green power and nuclear energy are competing to be the solution for reducing pollution from the electricity sector, the main greenhouse gas producer.

In Brazil, three-quarters of all new cars burn either ethanol or gasoline depending on which is cheaper at the pump, and ethanol is now available at nearly all of the country?s 34,000 gas stations.

El Salvador last month opened Central America?s first biodiesel plant with money from Finland, to produce 400 liters (quarts) of the uel a day.

The plant will process seeds from the Higuerillo tree, commonly used to provide shade for coffee plants in the region and the fruits of the Jatropha bush, a plant native to Mesoamerica and ideal for biodiesel production.

Guatemalan entrepreneur Ricardo Asturias is also launching a biodiesel project using Jatropha plants and already has some 300,000 growing around the country in order to start fuel production next year.

?This boosts agricultural production and helps the environment,? said Asturias. ?Step by step, we are learning how to make it profitable.?

http://greenr.com/2006/04/central-america-eyes-sweet-alternative-to-oil/


Same as oil, we will import fuel from other countries. South America can make it cheaply and ship it here. I assume it will be make cheaply enough that they can build there own gas stations, thus making there own infrastructure to sell there fuel.

They are just not jumping into it, but when Oil begind to hit the 100$/Barrel mark, I can see these countries cashing in, and North America Cars making a slow but steady switch to this.

 

[Steeplerot]

No Corn for Oil..err Blood.

Desert countries breathe a big sigh of relief.

 

[da loser]

the only good thing about biofuels is that it diversifies our energy sources, since natural gas is available in more places

my only hope is that this will cause the removal of all farm subsidies, but i think that's too much to ask

 

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by: da loser
the only good thing about biofuels is that it diversifies our energy sources, since natural gas is available in more places

my only hope is that this will cause the removal of all farm subsidies, but i think that's too much to ask

Maybe if Coolidge were in office

 

[msparish]

Sugarcane is much, much more efficient for the production of ethanol than corn. Not really even in the same ballpark with corn. Ethanol from sugarcane is already economically viable.

 

[Lemon law]

In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.
Deisel fuels have fewer constraints--but require a deisel engine-- something missing in most cars on the road.
But making fuels from high value crops like corn and soy beans is also rather dubious--we need to direct research into making fuels from less high value crops.

Research that should have been funded years ago---because what we now desperately need is years away after we start funding the research needed.

We have no one to blame but ourselves and the stupid politicians we elected----what we can do now is throw that set of rascals out----because they have done proved they don't belong as leaders----leaders see problems ahead----which is precisely what we don't have in Washington.

 

[K1052]

The US has the ability to meet its own fuel needs if prices reach that high (or even stay at current levels).

Biodiesel, ethanol, coal liquefaction, domestic petroleum, oil shale/sands all become profitable at these levels and are sitting right here inside our borders.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.

It's about $500 to modify a modern engine to run 50/50. It'll drop the horsepower 1/3 or so AFAIK.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.
Deisel fuels have fewer constraints--but require a deisel engine-- something missing in most cars on the road.
But making fuels from high value crops like corn and soy beans is also rather dubious--we need to direct research into making fuels from less high value crops.

Research that should have been funded years ago---because what we now desperately need is years away after we start funding the research needed.

We have no one to blame but ourselves and the stupid politicians we elected----what we can do now is throw that set of rascals out----because they have done proved they don't belong as leaders----leaders see problems ahead----which is precisely what we don't have in Washington.

The cost of diesel fuel directly affects almost everything in the economy since most shipping methods utilize it and most the NE uses it for heating.

We have known how to make alternative fuels for some time. The fact was that imported sources of energy were cheaper so they were utilized. Now that the market has moved so high alternate sources of energy, many of them domestically available at attractive costs, will play a far larger role. The government need not do much.

 

[Lemon law]

To K1052,

Even if you are right and the free market will step in--care to guess how long that will take?---or what crude oil will reach per
barrel?---or the total economic devisation that will occur?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To K1052,

Even if you are right and the free market will step in--care to guess how long that will take?---or what crude oil will reach per
barrel?---or the total economic devisation that will occur?

It isn?t going to happen all at one, but over the next few years you will see more and more alternative domestic fuel come on the market because it is now more than profitable and desirable to the public. That is not even counting our vast coal and shale fuel reserves (both of which are the largest in the world I might add) that at these prices are now economical to extract and convert to liquid fuels.

The US is actually sitting rather well for the long term all things considered.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.

It's about $500 to modify a modern engine to run 50/50. It'll drop the horsepower 1/3 or so AFAIK.

I do not know of a 50/50 kit but,
Bio cars suffer no performance penalty for switching over to bio once the engine is warm at all. (at least not the one I have driven) As far as I know diesel engines do not work like that.You do need to switch the line back over to real diesel to start it back up before you turn the engine off though.

I lived out of a kit modded grease bus like you mentioned for 6 months about 4 years ago (and hotels of course) and we went all up and down the west coast a few times on store bought corn oil (kinda expensive but probably cheaper then diesel nowdays) or whatever we could get from restaurants grease waste. (you have to strain it though first before using it as fuel) you cannot tell a performance difference when you flip the switch. Find a mexican place that makes their own tortillias and you are SET!

The guy whos bus it was told me it was around 700$ for the kit and it was a major pain to install, and it only works on certain diesel vehicles that can take it. (the bus we used was a early 80s VW camper)

I also know someone with a little vw rabbit type car that uses bio and have another friend with a old chevy truck that uses it.

It smells like whatever you got from the resturaunt behind you cooking, if you ever smell fresh french fries or fish and chips at a light, betcha the car in front of you is a bio.

From what I have read hemp is a good source of oil too, better then corn. I am not sure this is true or not though.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To K1052,

Even if you are right and the free market will step in--care to guess how long that will take?---or what crude oil will reach per
barrel?---or the total economic devisation that will occur?

It isn?t going to happen all at one, but over the next few years you will see more and more alternative domestic fuel come on the market because it is now more than profitable and desirable to the public. That is not even counting our vast coal and shale fuel reserves (both of which are the largest in the world I might add) that at these prices are now economical to extract and convert to liquid fuels.

The US is actually sitting rather well for the long term all things considered.

To K1052,

Short term you are an incredable optimist. Believe me, the short term complications will be drastic. And perhaps even almost fatal damage will be done to the US economy. Which you seem in almost total denial about.

Long term the US may be well positioned.

 

[5150Joker]

We need cars that run on refined sewage.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.

It's about $500 to modify a modern engine to run 50/50. It'll drop the horsepower 1/3 or so AFAIK.

I do not know of a 50/50 kit but,
Bio cars suffer no performance penalty for switching over to bio once the engine is warm at all. (at least not the one I have driven) As far as I know diesel engines do not work like that.You do need to switch the line back over to real diesel to start it back up before you turn the engine off though.

I lived out of a kit modded grease bus like you mentioned for 6 months about 4 years ago (and hotels of course) and we went all up and down the west coast a few times on store bought corn oil or whatever we could get from restaurants grease waste. (you have to strain it though first before using it as fuel) you cannot tell a performance difference when you flip the switch. Find a mexican place that makes their own tortillias and you are SET!

The guy whos bus it was told me it was around 700$ for the kit and it was a major pain to install, and it only works on certain diesel vehicles that can take it. (the bus we used was a early 80s VW camper)

I also know someone with a little vw rabbit type car that uses bio and have another friend with a old chevy truck that uses it.

It smells like whatever you got from the resturaunt behind you cooking, if you ever smell fresh french fries or fish and chips at a light, betcha the car in front of you is a bio.

From what I have read hemp is a good source of oil too, better then corn. I am not sure this is true or not though.

I've always heard that hemp would be great for fueling power plants too, but that probably won't happen.

 

[Lemon law]

To Steeplerot,

There is a lot of play given to French fry cooling oil fueled vehicles from Willie Nelson and others. Its all well and fine if a few innovators play with the concept--and you are to be congradulated for being one of them.

But when you talk about a entire nations fuels needs---even if 100% of all French fry cooking oil is recycled--it such a tiny part of overall demand that its hardly worth noting.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
We need cars that run on refined sewage.

"Refined sewage" is clean water, which is not readily combustible.

It may be possible to use the sludge (solid waste left at the end of the wastewater treatment process) as a fuel, but its composition is generally variable with time, location, and other variables, which makes it somewhat undesirable as a consistent fuel source.

 

[compuwiz1]

Bio Fuels, can, will, and are already being made here in America. I have a couple friends, who drive aging Mercedes-Benz diesels, who are already making their own fuel. More people need to jump on that bandwagon.

My friends claim that their costs to produce all the fuel they need, is about 48c per gallon. I don't understand if there is a conversion that needs to take place, as far as the motor is concerned, but another friend says, those same friends are gonna soon fuel his 7.3L diesel Ford pickup, for about 59c per gallon. Right now, that would save him $2.50 per gallon. :shocked:

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Steeplerot,

There is a lot of play given to French fry cooling oil fueled vehicles from Willie Nelson and others. Its all well and fine if a few innovators play with the concept--and you are to be congradulated for being one of them.

But when you talk about a entire nations fuels needs---even if 100% of all French fry cooking oil is recycled--it such a tiny part of overall demand that its hardly worth noting.

You can use what comes out of a fry vat, or you can just go to the grocery store and buy big jugs of vegtable oil, (that way you don't have to strain it out, just pour it in and go) back then it was about 2$ a gallon at costco, Not sure how much it is now. But we have so much corn in this country we subsidize it, as comuwiz says, it the next step.

http://www.frybrid.com Sells ready made kits.

Old fashioned dinosaur juice only gasoline or even these hybrid cars are like buying a socket 754 mobo imo

I haven't owned a car in ages but if I get this job I am hoping for I am going to need one, I will be buying a (soon to be black) Mercedes 240D and modding a fryer onto it.

If vegtable oil is 2.50 a gallon at costco and fossil oil is 3-4 it will not take that long before you pay off the cost of a 800$ mod kit, and that is if you are too lazy to hit up a resturaunt or the backside of a school cafeteria for theirs (the city usually charges them to haul grease off so it is win-win)

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In term of ethanol, 15% is about the limit that can be added to gasoline without major engine modifications.

It's about $500 to modify a modern engine to run 50/50. It'll drop the horsepower 1/3 or so AFAIK.

I do not know of a 50/50 kit but,
Bio cars suffer no performance penalty for switching over to bio once the engine is warm at all. (at least not the one I have driven) As far as I know diesel engines do not work like that.You do need to switch the line back over to real diesel to start it back up before you turn the engine off though.

I lived out of a kit modded grease bus like you mentioned for 6 months about 4 years ago (and hotels of course) and we went all up and down the west coast a few times on store bought corn oil (kinda expensive but probably cheaper then diesel nowdays) or whatever we could get from restaurants grease waste. (you have to strain it though first before using it as fuel) you cannot tell a performance difference when you flip the switch. Find a mexican place that makes their own tortillias and you are SET!

The guy whos bus it was told me it was around 700$ for the kit and it was a major pain to install, and it only works on certain diesel vehicles that can take it. (the bus we used was a early 80s VW camper)

I also know someone with a little vw rabbit type car that uses bio and have another friend with a old chevy truck that uses it.

It smells like whatever you got from the resturaunt behind you cooking, if you ever smell fresh french fries or fish and chips at a light, betcha the car in front of you is a bio.

From what I have read hemp is a good source of oil too, better then corn. I am not sure this is true or not though.

Both biofuels (biodiesel and ethanol) both have a net reduction in power; however, Saab proved they can counter it with a turbo (easy enough to add) and biodiesel isn't really that much.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Strk

Both biofuels (biodiesel and ethanol) both have a net reduction in power; however, Saab proved they can counter it with a turbo (easy enough to add) and biodiesel isn't really that much.

Like I said, I have driven a fryer for months thousands of miles up and down CA and Oregon and there was no difference I could find in performance.

I have never even heard of a performace drop and known people for years with them, weird.

random google stuff
I am getting the same performance and the same mileage as I did on Petro-diesel.

When comparing biodiesel performance to that of conventional diesel fuels, horsepower is not noticeably different.

I think someone is pulling your chain to be honest, diesel engines don't work like gasoline hybrids, maybe that is what you are thinking of?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To K1052,

Even if you are right and the free market will step in--care to guess how long that will take?---or what crude oil will reach per
barrel?---or the total economic devisation that will occur?

It isn?t going to happen all at one, but over the next few years you will see more and more alternative domestic fuel come on the market because it is now more than profitable and desirable to the public. That is not even counting our vast coal and shale fuel reserves (both of which are the largest in the world I might add) that at these prices are now economical to extract and convert to liquid fuels.

The US is actually sitting rather well for the long term all things considered.

To K1052,

Short term you are an incredable optimist. Believe me, the short term complications will be drastic. And perhaps even almost fatal damage will be done to the US economy. Which you seem in almost total denial about.

Long term the US may be well positioned.

I wouldn't say so. Oil prices are unrealistically high at present and should moderate somewhat given a little time. It is very unlikely that entire US economy is going to come crashing down in the next year or two. The new higher price of petroleum will cause people to conserve by many ways (using their highest mpg car more, purchase more efficient vehicles, utilizing mass transit more, less long distance trips by car, etc...).

It is premature to say the sky is falling just yet.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: Strk

Both biofuels (biodiesel and ethanol) both have a net reduction in power; however, Saab proved they can counter it with a turbo (easy enough to add) and biodiesel isn't really that much.

Like I said, I have driven a fryer and there was no difference I could find in performance.

I have never even heard of a performace drop and known people for years with them, weird.

random google stuff
I am getting the same performance and the same mileage as I did on Petro-diesel.

When comparing biodiesel performance to that of conventional diesel fuels, horsepower is not noticeably different.

I think someone is pulling your chain to be honest, diesel engines don't work like gasoline hybrids.

Biodiesel has slightly less energy content than petroleum diesel (about 5% less IIRC) but I don't see that as much of an impediment.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: K1052


Biodiesel has slightly less energy content than petroleum diesel (about 5% less IIRC) but I don't see that as much of an impediment.

Even if that was true I dont see how that would make a performance difference in a diesel engine though.

Sounds like oil industry FUD for those that have always used gasoline engines.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: K1052


Biodiesel has slightly less energy content than petroleum diesel (about 5% less IIRC) but I don't see that as much of an impediment.

Even if that was true I dont see how that would make a performance difference in a diesel engine though.

Sounds like oil industry FUD for those that have always used gasoline engines.

It should not produce a noticeable loss of power.

It is a scientific fact, as I recall.