Bill Maher is right

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Feb 6, 2007
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You need to support values if you don't want that bigotry, and you are the enemy of values when you call supporting values 'bullshit pandering'.

No, it's not. It's opposing bigotry.
No, when I say bullshit pandering, I mean the people who hate homosexuality, but have to come up with other reasons why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. I respect someone more who flat out says "I don't like queers" then someone who tries to hide their bigotry behind bullshit like "well, it's a religious institution, and there's a long history behind it, and you'd have to start letting people marry dogs, etc." I don't agree with what either person is saying, but at least the person who tells me he hates gays is being honest about his position. Disguising bigotry doesn't make it go away, and that's all political correctness boils down to; don't say this because it will make you look bad. The words don't matter as much as the thought behind them, and that's not going to change just because the language does.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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No, when I say bullshit pandering, I mean the people who hate homosexuality, but have to come up with other reasons why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. I respect someone more who flat out says "I don't like queers" then someone who tries to hide their bigotry behind bullshit like "well, it's a religious institution, and there's a long history behind it, and you'd have to start letting people marry dogs, etc." I don't agree with what either person is saying, but at least the person who tells me he hates gays is being honest about his position. Disguising bigotry doesn't make it go away, and that's all political correctness boils down to; don't say this because it will make you look bad. The words don't matter as much as the thought behind them, and that's not going to change just because the language does.
Not dogs, ducks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPcBI4CJc8
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Its called metabolism. It has a time course on the order of weeks to months. This is well established. Please inform me of any system governed by thermodynamics that has the same time course.

BTW, reading casually about ChemE is not the same as having a background in ChemE. Plus, given your posts here i am going to guess that your notion of "ChemE" is 50 years old. This is very different than ChemE now.

Guess you haven't seen me post here much then. I have a degree in Ch.E. and have been in the field for nearly 20 years. I wouldn't call this casual reading but thanks for the insult. Also, sorry if you think that laws of science have changed in the last 50 years.

It simple energy conservation. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only stored or converted. You eat a meal (energy) and your body can choose what to do with it. It can use it or store it. Some people have metabolism/genetics which can make them store more of that energy rather than use it all. They are always usually tired too. Why? Because their body is storing energy that would otherwise be used to power their systems. I can make a fat rat in a lab with the right genetic traits that can be made fat off the same diet that other mice stay lean on. Or I could make the rat fat simply by feeding it that same diet, but in a way that makes its body thinks its starving and therefore triggering it to store more energy for long term use. Same principle works for every other living thing. Genetics or behavior or even combinations of the two can make people fat. No more food is required.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
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Its called metabolism. It has a time course on the order of weeks to months. This is well established.

You are really behind. There is much new research showing it's just not that simple. Some people are predisposed to be heavy. The more often they lose weight, the worse their metabolism gets. Their bodies rebel. Even worse, it seems to be permanent, or at least lasts for years. It is still possible to counter with diet and exercise but for some people it takes incredible effort.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
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*sigh*

ENOUGH about fat.

Like I said, 99%, the majority, of people can lose weight if they want to. Just as it was mentioned that timing can fool your body, timing can also train it.

You do not load up on fried eggs and jellybeans before going to bed, you do not drink 37 cans of "light" beer on a weekend, and you do not have diet soda with your chilly cheese fries.

There are very few truly OBESE people in less fortunate nations. There are many that would not exactly be considered "robust", but they could probably get up and down stairs much faster than 90% of the Americans out there of the same weight.

Does that mean everyone can be skinny? No. Not by reasonable means. Some will always have a gut, but they will not look like Chris Farley and Rosanne Barr's secret love child after All You Can Eat day at Fridays.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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No, when I say bullshit pandering, I mean the people who hate homosexuality, but have to come up with other reasons why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. I respect someone more who flat out says "I don't like queers" then someone who tries to hide their bigotry behind bullshit like "well, it's a religious institution, and there's a long history behind it, and you'd have to start letting people marry dogs, etc." I don't agree with what either person is saying, but at least the person who tells me he hates gays is being honest about his position. Disguising bigotry doesn't make it go away, and that's all political correctness boils down to; don't say this because it will make you look bad. The words don't matter as much as the thought behind them, and that's not going to change just because the language does.

Let me share a view I have of this issue of bigotry: the bigots generally don't know they are creating bullshit reasons. It's not intentional deceit. It's just how people operate.

I've generally found bigots do not understand their own bigotry. They're blind to it - and that's why they are offended, outraged, when called bigots. Why they raise 'friends'.

If you look at how propaganda works, it's largely 'reinforcing views people are already disposed to have'. People get used to thinking of blacks as 'in a subservient role', for example. It's been said that's why so many southerners felt so passionately about defending slavery when few had slaves - they were protecting their own status in society, which was that they were 'above' the blacks.

People get used to thinking of gays in a certain role, too. Many Christians view gays as 'sinning', as choosing to do wrong; to let them marry would 'defile the institution'.

People don't easily change these views, not because they are just hateful - it's just how people operate. Cultural norms aren't casually flipped. Look at decades of gay activism.

So, I understand why you say you think better of the 'direct bigot' than one who creates rationalizations, but I disagree - I don't think the person making rationalizations is intentionally doing so, but is actually doing it because of bias they aren't aware thay is affecting them.

This is why you see these people come up with an argument such as 'gays shouldn't be allowed to marry because they can't have kids'. They're thrashing around with a feeling they have picked up as a societal norm about gays, and when challenged, they look for how to justify the feeling not to deceive, but as a natural reaction when they aren't used to being challenged on it. People don't just say 'oh hey now that you ask, I realize my views of gays are baseless. Thanks!'

Instead, they look for 'why is there a problem with gays marrying', and they quickly notice the children issue, and it 'sounds reasonable' to reinforce the view they're pre-disposed to have. Ask anyone why polygamy should be illegal - I'm not saying a position on it here - and you see a similar behavior. They just start pointing our things different about it without much consideration if it makes sense. To them it's an 'answer', it justifies their view. It's not easy for them to consider, 'what if they're really unjustifiably discriminating?'

So, I don't think they're 'worse' than the 'direct bigot' and possibly the direct bigot is 'worse', not even trying to justify wronging people, but doing so proudly.

Once a person realizes their own bigotry - not something you are likely to see much - they are often apologetic and feel bad, and critical of their previous allies. 'I didn't understand'.

An example might be a 'gay hater' who has a gay child and comes to a new view.

Besides polygamy, there's still a lot of lack of acceptance of transgender people - again, a combination of ignorance, fear of the unknown, 'not used to that'. Why, they're freaks.

You can't tell them from a pervert, a rapist, a pedophile, they're all just weird! People quickly look for things that let them keep their views.

If they get a closer understanding - again, unlikely - they can change those views. When are they going to? Look how gays had to take baby steps being 'introduced' to society on tv - first, slight implications, later characters in one episode (e.g., The Rockford Files had an episode with a mobster's son turning out to be gay - so the father had him killed) - to secondary characters to a starring role to their own show (Queer eye for the straight guy, acceptable as long as they're entertaining, remember black performers early on?)

Those were all milestones society would have found horrible and reacted terribly, if done quickly before they were 'ready', over decades. Sounds ridiculous later, doesn't it?

'Political correctness' is more useful than you appreciate.

Why is it that a politician who comes out for eliminating medicare is viewed as 'someone we disagree with', but someone who comes out for bringing back segregation is worse than that, 'not a legitimate part of the public discussion', someone who isn't 'entitled' to be on commentary shows and published in newspapers advocating for that - a sort of moral monster?

These things like bigotry are poisonous for a society and so society has stronger measures against them. That's why there's an added level of outrage - without that, the poison creeps back into society with an ever-growing minority who are affected, and bigoted things start to happen more and more, and get challenged less, creeping into the law and other places eventually. When is inter-racial marriage 'a right', and when is it 'an abominiation we have a moral obligation to outlaw'?

Ever notice how bigotry retreats, as society criticizes it, to 'jokes'? Like the ones under Obama about race, including just this year the federal judge who forwarded one about Obama's mother conceiving him at a party involving sex with black strangers and dogs? These aren't 'jokes' and they also become unacceptable for 'politically correct' and good reasons, because if they're tolerated... it opens the door to more bigotry.

You can say 'words aren't the issue' all you like, but the fact is, people re influenced by the standards we enforce.

When the President of the United States, Kennedy, did a televised national speech about race, it legitimized the civil rights movement opposing racism for people like never before.

In that speech, he said something similar to what you did - that you can't outlaw hate, the only solution is in the hearts of the people. But by speaking out against it, he helped people change their views. The hate went from 'the norm' to less and less acceptable as people talked and realized the hate for what it was.

Look in his presidency and you find mobs of average white people out seething hatred at a black being admitted to a white school - signs, hateful faces, screaming slurs, opposing the change - not for rational reasons but for the ones I described, it was not what they were used to. But look 10 or 20 years later, after the civil rights act and cultural shift, and those same cities wouldn't find such a protest anything but incredibly immoral and hateful. Hearts changed.

Political correctness, when appropriate and not excessive, is part of that cultural shift. It's when things like race jokes, gay jokes, 'go too far' when they are spreading hate. When people lose employment for it because society is making a statement against the hate and bigotry, as sportscasters, politicians and others have found out. It's important to have that - if Rush Limbaugh could call Obama the N word every day without any price, our society would be worse off in its racial views.

Of course, this new weapon - the 'politically offended' issue where the people are ostracized for bigotry - is vulnerable to abuse, when misused.

If one person is shunned for calling for the return of segregation, another can be attacked the same way wrongly for saying 'what's the problem with black crime rates being so high'.

What's the difference? That's the need for people to use good judgement - not for allowing the worst offenses to be 'ok' and attack all 'political correctness'.

I think most attacks on political correctness are really about the excesses (and I agree), but attacking all PC is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

This is why I distinguish 'good PC' and 'bad PC'. Good PC is important for our society not devolving on bigotry.

It's not any attack on 'free speech', it's defending values, so that people who might call for a return to segregation and spread hate are shunned for it.

That's not the same thing as putting them in jail. Free speech is to be encouraged, including hate speech when honest, that's how people evolve on it.

That's why it's important not to just 'shun' terrible hate speech but to discuss why it's wrong with people who don't know.

We don't need an 'official list of incorrect opinions', we need a society with values who understand right and wrong better so they don't want to speak hate.

Victory isn't the guy who yells 'lovely human' being punished, it's the guy who says 'why would I speak hatefully about gay people?' But shunning those who do is part of how you get there.

Save234
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Shit, I need to spend some time away from ATPN. I've agreed with Craig twice now.

I fear for my sanity!
 
Feb 6, 2007
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I agree with you as long as the political correctness isn't too extreme, but I also like Maher's contention that you don't have the right to only hear things that don't offend you. That's the best part about the first amendment; it gives bigots the right to say stupid things and enlightened people the opportunity to educate them.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I agree with you as long as the political correctness isn't too extreme, but I also like Maher's contention that you don't have the right to only hear things that don't offend you. That's the best part about the first amendment; it gives bigots the right to say stupid things and enlightened people the opportunity to educate them.

Well, yeh, but it's impossible to educate people who are proud to be ignorant, and whose denial mechanisms are so strong as to be impenetrable. Their emotional investment in "being right" overwhelms their intellect.

You'll see plenty of it here.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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Shit, I need to spend some time away from ATPN. I've agreed with Craig twice now.

I fear for my sanity!

You actually read the entire thing? I got about 3 sentences into it, basically agreed with what I had read so far, then called it a day. I wasn't up for the whole slog...
 

Stayfr0sty

Senior member
Mar 5, 2012
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Dont talk crap about Robert DeNiro or else he will show up with Joe Pesci to shove a baseball bat up your butt :D

Hehe, seriously hey thats just a celebrity who cares what joke he makes, and on top of that he pwns.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Dont talk crap about Robert DeNiro or else he will show up with Joe Pesci to shove a baseball bat up your butt :D

It would have been better if he had said something more strongly than 'not ment to offend'. (I would have liked 'If you are offended then I am sorry that you are an idiot') What we really need is for people to call out the idiocy of the PC cries. Mr Axlerod should have called out that Jewish coalition on their stupidity. Until more people stand up against this we will continue to have to deal with shit like this
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
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sound, they are all for it when you give a Fuck, but don't want anything to do with it once you are Fucked.