Biden moves to mandate vaccines for large part of workforce

[woolfe9998]

It's a local issue , state can order citizens to get vaccinated per 1905 court ruling from SCOTUS. What Biden is trying to do is have federal government order business to do it bypassing state control . That is why why CDC eviction ban failed and that is why this will fail as well. Congress will need to specifically give federal government this power and that obviously will never current congress/senate

What the CDC is empowered to do by statute is different than what OSHA is empowered to do.

OSHA already regulates workplace safety for every private business in the country. There is no "state control" in this area. The states do not regulate workplace safety except for state and local government employees. Biden's mandate does not affect state and local government employees.

I don't think there is any way to overturn this without overturning OSHA itself. They'd have to declare the entire thing unconstitutional.

 

[weblooker2021]

What the CDC is empowered to do by statute is different than what OSHA is empowered to do.

OSHA already regulates workplace safety for every private business in the country. There is no "state control" in this area. The states do not regulate workplace safety except for state and local government employees. Biden's mandate does not affect state and local government employees.

I don't think there is any way to overturn this without overturning OSHA itself. They'd have to declare the entire thing unconstitutional.

Nope, judge can rule that Congress never intended to give such sweeping power to OSHA. If this survives then feds can use OSHA to force companies to implement health and wellness program or require each company to require their workers to have health insurance etc. This is such government overreach that got no chances to survive.

 

[sactoking]

My question was answered, the Politico article on this lead by saying Healthcare providers and hospitals that accept medicaid and Medicare are affected.

 

[weblooker2021]

My question was answered, the Politico article on this lead by saying Healthcare providers and hospitals that accept medicaid and Medicare are affected.

Nothing stopping them from accepting religious waiver.

 

[fskimospy]

Nope, judge can rule that Congress never intended to give such sweeping power to OSHA. If this survives then feds can use OSHA to force companies to implement health and wellness program or require each company to require their workers to have health insurance etc. This is such government overreach that got no chances to survive.

So are you saying the previous emergency rules for COVID OSHA created using identical authority were also unconstitutional or a violation of the statute? If not, what’s different here? Be specific.

I do agree they will judge shop until they find a but willing to order a nationwide injunction though - but it will be slapped down on appeal because Biden’s authority is obvious.

 

[weblooker2021]

So are you saying the previous emergency rules for COVID OSHA created using identical authority were also unconstitutional or a violation of the statute? If not, what’s different here? Be specific.

I do agree they will judge shop until they find a but willing to order a nationwide injunction though - but it will be slapped down on appeal because Biden’s authority is obvious.

Yes other Covid rules were likely unconstitutional as well but no judge at the time would have ruled as such plus until recently SCOTUS was not as conservative as it's now. Now it's really political and this is basically backdoor way of mandating everyone get vaccinated. If any appeal court rules that this is constitutional, i can see SCOTUS stepping in and issuing an injunction until it go through the court. Considering how conservative SCOTUS is, i am just not seeing this surviving at all.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes other Covid rules were likely unconstitutional as well but no judge at the time would have ruled as such plus until recently SCOTUS was not as conservative as it's now. Now it's really political and this is basically backdoor way of mandating everyone get vaccinated. If any appeal court rules that this is constitutional, i can see SCOTUS stepping in and issuing an injunction until it go through the court. Considering how conservative SCOTUS is, i am just not seeing this surviving at all.

So all emergency OSHA regulations are unconstitutional or is the whole statute unconstitutional? Why hasn’t this come up in the last half century?

 

[K1052]

So all emergency OSHA regulations are unconstitutional or is the whole statute unconstitutional? Why hasn’t this come up in the last half century?

The powers of Democratic presidents under the law are simply not valid anymore if conservatives control sufficient SCOTUS seats is really what he's saying. I can think of no stronger argument for restructuring the court.

 

[weblooker2021]

So all emergency OSHA regulations are unconstitutional or is the whole statute unconstitutional? Why hasn’t this come up in the last half century?

I am not seeing SCOTUS ruling that OSHA is completely unconstitutional, what i am seeing them is doing a narrow ruling that congress didn't give such power on this issue to OSHA. Plus one can even argue that this is a violations of company's 1st amendment.

 

[Bitek]

I imagine it's going to break for Biden. A large proportion of the antivaxxers are Blumpkins that wouldn't vote for Biden if their life depended on it. Meanwhile, I think most everyone else is fed up with them. I see virtually no downside to this.

I would imagine the recent disappointing jobs report also put weight on the decision.

From a politics perspective, can Biden and the Ds afford inaction? With a continuing pandemic and struggling economy, what's their chances of reelection?

With this move, not only can he save lives, help end pandemic in US, strengthen the economy, and force the Rs into extremist positions fighting mandates and fighting for neverending COVID and death.

 

[fskimospy]

I am not seeing SCOTUS ruling that OSHA is completely unconstitutional, what i am seeing them is doing a narrow ruling that congress didn't give such power on this issue to OSHA. Plus one can even argue that this is a violations of company's 1st amendment.

What’s the logic in the constitution or the statute that leads you to this conclusion? Be specific.

 

[ivwshane]

What’s the logic in the constitution or the statute that leads you to this conclusion? Be specific.

To be fair, you are asking him to logically explain conservative thinking, that's not really possible.

 

[weblooker2021]

What’s the logic in the constitution or the statute that leads you to this conclusion? Be specific.

Take 1905 case jacobson v. massachusetts, it was state trying to mandate it and not the federal government. The state can order their citizens to get vaccinated, to me that is settled but in this case bypassing 10the amendment and basically trying to impose mandate that should be done by local government. I would expect same result if CDC tried to order citizens to wear a mask outside of specific area that normally been under control of feds.

 

[Bitek]

My bet is they overturn it and do so in a way that calls into question a large portion of OSHA regulations.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong, but I have come to be of the opinion that SCOTUS arrives at its desired outcome first and justifies it second.

I hope not, but may not matter too much.

What do you think the conversations are right now amongst executives?

They are planning on how they implement this, not sit it out and wait for the supreme court.

If they wish they could fight it, they would still haven't to explain to their workforce how they won't enforce it and are willing to put workers at risk.

This will have a domino effect that will be difficult to stop.

It's not like this is the limit of his levers. Don't like this, he can attack it in different ways.

 

[weblooker2021]

I hope not, but may not matter too much.

What do you think the conversations are right now amongst executives?

They are planning on how they implement this, not sit it out and wait for the supreme court.

If they wish they could fight it, they would still haven't to explain to their workforce how they won't enforce it and are willing to put workers at risk.

This will have a domino effect that will be difficult to stop.

It's not like this is the limit of his levers. Don't like this, he can attack it in different ways.

This will get struck down with in days and not weeks or months.

 

[Bitek]

Nope, judge can rule that Congress never intended to give such sweeping power to OSHA. If this survives then feds can use OSHA to force companies to implement health and wellness program or require each company to require their workers to have health insurance etc. This is such government overreach that got no chances to survive.

Wellness programs have nothing to do with workplace safety.

 

[Bitek]

This will get struck down with in days and not weeks or months.

You are kidding yourself if you think the supreme court can step in front of every possible lever the president holds that can effect this outcome.

So many ways to come at this.

This is fantasy that this isn't happening

 

[weblooker2021]

You are kidding yourself if you think the supreme court can step in front of every possible lever the president holds that can effect this outcome.

So many ways to come at this.

This is fantasy that this isn't happening

Who said anything about SCOTUS, any federal judge can issue national injunction.

 

[fskimospy]

Take 1905 case jacobson v. massachusetts, it was state trying to mandate it and not the federal government. The state can order their citizens to get vaccinated, to me that is settled but in this case bypassing 10the amendment and basically trying to impose mandate that should be done by local government. I would expect same result if CDC tried to order citizens to wear a mask outside of specific area that normally been under control of feds.

What constitutional or statutory provision bars the federal government from doing this?

 

[weblooker2021]

What constitutional or statutory provision bars the federal government from doing this?

10th amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

 

[fskimospy]

Who said anything about SCOTUS, any federal judge can issue national injunction.

Those will be thrown out quickly though.

 

[fskimospy]

10th amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So back to the claim that OSHA as a statute is unconstitutional? Otherwise this argument makes no sense.

 

[weblooker2021]

So back to the claim that OSHA as a statute is unconstitutional? Otherwise this argument makes no sense.

Very narrowly yes but i am not seeing any judge dropping OSHA. It will probably be ruled that this type of mandate can't be enforced or something like that. I suspect we will see some type of action once OSHA actually publishes the regulation which i don't believe have been done yet.

 

[fskimospy]

Remember how you thought these mandates weren’t coming at all? You’re wishcasting.

 

[Bitek]

Who said anything about SCOTUS, any federal judge can issue national injunction.

Again. Fantasy.

Might there be a few injunctions? Sure.

Will everything be stopped? No way.

Take away a couple tools, there are plenty more to use.

Will businesses refuse to act? Volunteer to side with the virus? Run up their healthcare costs?

Federal contractors sit on their asses and endanger their business *hoping* the courts rule their way and the president gives up?

Not happening. You are kidding yourself if you think this will go away.