Best vehicle for bad weather conditions

[IntoxicatedPuma]

So wrong.

That was a very detailed response full of factual evidence to prove that I am in fact wrong.

I should repeat my statement with the assumption that it is wrong, and correct it to make it sound "right".

It's almost always helping you. AWD are all full time and put power to the front wheels even if they start dont slip. Then it starts to hurt you. If you are turning in inclement weather you should have your foot on the gas pedal. Snow and ice don't exaggerate effects already taking place on the car. AWD will save you from oversteer or understeer unless if you are pushing the car at the limits, and you definitely should be doing that (pushing the car to the limits) in bad weather.

What will help you alot less than AWD, and but is not standard on every new car, is stability control. That will actually hurt in cornering by applying the brakes to the wheels and not prevent oversteering/fishtailing. AWD will NEVER help when you are accelerating, which if your car is losing control you definitely should be doing.

Sorry about that, I fixed my statement so it's so right now.

 

[Jumpem]

It's almost never helping you. AWD aren't full time and put power to the front wheels UNTIL they start to slip. Then it starts to help you. If you are turning in inclement weather you probably shouldnt have your foot on the gas pedal. Snow and ice just exaggerate effects already taking place on the car. AWD won't save you from oversteer or understeer unless you are pushing the car at the limits, and you shouldn't be doing that in bad weather.

What will help you alot more than AWD, and is now standard on every new car, is stability control. That will actually help in cornering by applying the brakes to the wheels and preventing oversteering/fishtailing. AWD will ONLY help when you are accelerating, which if your car is losing control you probably shouldn't be doing.

Subarus power all four wheels all the time.

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

Most Subaru's are - I don't know which ones are and aren't, but it's still only making an impact when you have your foot on the gas pedal. It's still $1000-$2000 for something that only makes an impact a few months out of the year, and not necessarily a huge one at that. Not saying AWD is worthless, but it adds complication to the drivetrain which can lead to repairs later on, reduces gas mileage, and you'll only use it a few months out of a year (and only on a few days out of those months) and the impact isn't as significant as other much cheaper solutions like winter tires.

 

[Jumpem]

Most Subaru's are - I don't know which ones are and aren't, but it's still only making an impact when you have your foot on the gas pedal. It's still $1000-$2000 for something that only makes an impact a few months out of the year, and not necessarily a huge one at that. Not saying AWD is worthless, but it adds complication to the drivetrain which can lead to repairs later on, reduces gas mileage, and you'll only use it a few months out of a year (and only on a few days out of those months) and the impact isn't as significant as other much cheaper solutions like winter tires.

ALL AWD Subarus are. They don't make an AWD vehicle that ever only powers two wheels. Snow tires are still a good idea with AWD. As for the maintenance aspects, that is what a warranty is for. And the newer Subarus get good fuel economy for AWD vehicles. The Outback is 24/31, and the Forester is 24/32. It snows a lot here. I get much use out of mine almost every day for four months or so.

 

[Capt Caveman]

ALL AWD Subarus are. They don't make an AWD vehicle that ever only powers two wheels. Snow tires are still a good idea with AWD. As for the maintenance aspects, that is what a warranty is for. And the newer Subarus get good fuel economy for AWD vehicles. The Outback is 24/31, and the Forester is 24/32. It snows a lot here. I get much use out of mine almost every day for four months or so.

I've found AWD to also be useful for wet conditions and for hard cornering. Something that can occur year round. Wouldn't own a vehicle without AWD in New England. Worth the money.

 

[JCH13]

I've found AWD to also be useful for wet conditions and for hard cornering. Something that can occur year round. Wouldn't own a vehicle without AWD in New England. Worth the money.

100% disagree with these statements.

Please explain to me how AWD helps cornering. Someone. Anyone. Please explain how being able to apply force in one direction on a tire helps the tire maintain grip in an orthogonal direction.

Also, I've only ever driven 2wd vehicles in NH winters. Both FWD and RWD with open diffs. I held a season's ski pass from ages 6-21 and would cut first tracks on nearly every snow day with my friends, driving through 1-2ft of snow. Never had an accident, never gotten stuck. Just use a little common sense and snow tires and you're good to go.

 

[JulesMaximus]

A snowmobile.

Seriously, I'm not sure what kind of snowpocalypse all of you are planning for but pretty much any FWD sedan with decent all season tires will get you through any winter in the northeast. Throw a set of snow tires on steel wheels if you're really worried.

 

[Capt Caveman]

100% disagree with these statements.

Please explain to me how AWD helps cornering. Someone. Anyone. Please explain how being able to apply force in one direction on a tire helps the tire maintain grip in an orthogonal direction.

Also, I've only ever driven 2wd vehicles in NH winters. Both FWD and RWD with open diffs. I held a season's ski pass from ages 6-21 and would cut first tracks on nearly every snow day with my friends, driving through 1-2ft of snow. Never had an accident, never gotten stuck. Just use a little common sense and snow tires and you're good to go.

I suggest you use google. And some AWD are even better than other's. I'm guessing you've never driven an Acura with SH-AWD.

Good for you in your 2wd. I never said you couldn't get by with 2wd but after going AWD, I'll stick with AWD for additional convenience, traction and handling at higher speeds in adverse conditions.

 

[phucheneh]

Subaru is pretty much the only choice here, as far as a reliable, affordable sedan/hatch is concerned.

As in, if you want the best mix of everything for winter driving. Pretty good handling, but a decent amount of ground clearance. Decent weight distribution, good AWD system. Can be equipped with snow tires for pretty cheap, much like a normal compact/midsize FWD.

But yes, FWD's generally work fine. I would only say you 'need' the Subaru if you live in an area where you have a trifecta of shittiness: frequent winter weather, lots of hill, and stop and go traffic on said hills.

The only time I have trouble with a FWD is when a road surface is totally covered, I'm going uphill, and I can't keep moving.

 

[JCH13]

I suggest you use google. And some AWD are even better than other's. I'm guessing you've never driven an Acura with SH-AWD.

Good for you in your 2wd. I never said you couldn't get by with 2wd but after going AWD, I'll stick with AWD for additional convenience, traction and handling at higher speeds in adverse conditions.

Like this?

However, if you think that AWD will help your car better grip slippery corners or dodge an indecisive squirrel, you're sadly mistaken.

Read more: The Myth of All-Powerful All-Wheel Drive - Popular Mechanics

Or this article?

If you drive a vehicle with AWD or 4WD drive keep these rules in mind.


1. You may be able to get going much better than 2WD vehicles but you cannot stop or steer better. AWD only helps acceleration.


2. If you drive a vehicle with AWD or 4WD you should have winter tires on all four wheels. It’s the stopping and steering that will save your life and AWD does not enhance these aspects of active safety.


3. Slow down as there may be less grip than you are experiencing while accelerating.

You are CLEARLY falling victim to 'over-confident driver' syndrome. You should NOT be driving faster because you have AWD, you CANNOT stop faster than a 2WD vehicle. You are a danger to other people and yourself if you honestly think you can drive faster and turn better in the snow because you have AWD.

 

[LTC8K6]

Subarus power all four wheels all the time.

So does my Jeep. Wouldn't that be 4WD and not AWD?

 

[IntoxicatedPuma]

ALL AWD Subarus are. They don't make an AWD vehicle that ever only powers two wheels. Snow tires are still a good idea with AWD. As for the maintenance aspects, that is what a warranty is for. And the newer Subarus get good fuel economy for AWD vehicles. The Outback is 24/31, and the Forester is 24/32. It snows a lot here. I get much use out of mine almost every day for four months or so.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/all-wheel-drive.html

Subaru may not, but a lot if not most AWD systems only power 2 wheels at a time for some/most of the time. I know Subaru has used systems like that in the past, I don't know enough about their current lineup to know if they still use anything like that, their website seems to indicate they don't.

As for the warranty......that's not really a solution to the problem. Kind of reminds me of the Honda commercials from last year about how reliable of a car it is because it has a "really great warranty." Not saying Subaru's are unreliable, because for the most part I think most modern cars are pretty reliable unless you get a lemon, but it's still more parts that can break and AWD systems are expensive to repair.

So does my Jeep. Wouldn't that be 4WD and not AWD?

The only time I have trouble with a FWD is when a road surface is totally covered, I'm going uphill, and I can't keep moving.

What they said.

 

[JCH13]

So does my Jeep. Wouldn't that be 4WD and not AWD?

AWD usually refers to systems that power all 4 wheels all the time or automatically engage 4 wheels when needed. 4WD usually refers to drive systems that must be intentionally set into 4WD mode by the driver. Not to get too semantic about it...

 

[JackBurton]

I would think a Jeep Wrangler would be a great option. Put some big bad snow tires on it and you'll be good to go.

 

[ND40oz]

Subaru may not, but a lot if not most AWD systems only power 2 wheels at a time for some/most of the time. I know Subaru has used systems like that in the past, I don't know enough about their current lineup to know if they still use anything like that, their website seems to indicate they don't.

I wouldn't say a lot or most do, the only major systems I can think of like that are Honda's VTM-4 (Real Time AWD) and vehicles with Haldex. Most other AWD systems are using pinion/spider gear, planetary, torsen or viscous center diffs or they're using something like SH-AWD which doesn't use a center diff at all, the rear wheels have their own electronically controlled clutch packs. Either way, all 4 wheels are being driven all of the time and on many of them torque is transferred between the axels, a smaller subset can transfer torque to individual wheels as well.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Like this?



Or this article?



You are CLEARLY falling victim to 'over-confident driver' syndrome. You should NOT be driving faster because you have AWD, you CANNOT stop faster than a 2WD vehicle. You are a danger to other people and yourself if you honestly think you can drive faster and turn better in the snow because you have AWD.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=435745

Conclusions

While Acura may not be the first name that comes to mind when thinking about high-tech all-wheel-drive systems, SH-AWD did prove to be quite effective in the extremely slick conditions in the Great White North.

All-wheel-drive systems from any manufacturer can be very useful when driving in wet or slippery conditions, but with the ability to direct power to individual rear wheels and actually accelerate one wheel faster than the others, Acura's SH-AWD provides improved cornering and handling in a way that no other manufacturer offers. At least for now.

http://blog.motorists.org/winter-driving-rwd-fwd-awd-4wd/

The bottom line: AWD is an excellent choice for the performance-minded driver who values dry-weather handling and high-speed grip in a corner as much as being able to get out of his driveway when it snows.

 

[FiLeZz]

What about launching out of the hole.. AWD for the Win.. Screw weather I like the 0-60 times.

 

[LTC8K6]

What about launching out of the hole.. AWD for the Win.. Screw weather I like the 0-60 times.

Yes. Love the launch from the hemi. Especially in the rain.

 

[Pardus]

My local Subaru dealership had the 2013 Forester for $279/mo or the 2014 Forester for $289/mo with $0 down over a 42-month lease. Didn't test drive the car, but it looked ok. They were very pushy trying offer me 110% book value on my car if i did a new purchase today.

They had a 2010 model with 26,000 miles on it for $15k, but it was bright ass red.

Maybe towards years end there will be better deals.

 

[JCH13]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=435745



http://blog.motorists.org/winter-driving-rwd-fwd-awd-4wd/

Your sources have absolutely not quantitative data to support their conclusions. They are written by apparently un-technical people with no apparent understanding of physics. AWD cars can certainly FEEL like they're cornering better, but the plain and simple truth is that AWD CANNOT GRIP ANY BETTER than a 2WD vehicle in turns.

Cars follow a 'performance circle' (or ellipse) similar to the one below. To maximize lateral grip, especially in low-traction situations, the vehicle cannot be accelerating in any other direction. That is to say at peak lateral grip any braking or accelerating will cause a loss of grip. Thus in this condition it doesn't matter if two or four of the wheels are driven, because no actual torque is being exerted by the drive-line.

This loss of grip is experienced as oversteer or understeer. FWD cars generally experience understeer, RWD cars experience oversteer (generally, in low-traction situations), and AWD cars could experience either one depending on their particular configuration, but tend to have a more neutral push. Confidence-inspiring, perhaps more predictable, but it does NOT actually generate more lateral grip. This is experience I have gained from skid-pad driving all of the aforementioned drive types.

An article from a company who makes it their business to test and evaluate

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=122&

However, it is important to remember that while the all-wheel/four-wheel drive vehicle's ability to accelerate in slippery conditions provides a lot of confidence, it doesn't really offer any unique advantage when the vehicle has to stop or turn. This is because the other vehicles also use all four tires to provide braking and cornering traction. Since four-wheel drive vehicles actually weigh more than their two-wheel drive counterparts, bringing them to a stop or turning a corner actually requires more traction.

Here is an article that actually puts numbers to their tests.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction

From the conclusion:

Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

The over-confidence that AWD gives drivers an awfully easy trap to fall into, and is why most people think AWD grips better. The plain and simple fact is that AWD is not a performance advantage other than straight-line acceleration in winter driving.

I will only stipulate that you are plain wrong. I will not 'agree to disagree' when overwhelming expert evaluations and actual quantitative testing show that you are wrong.

 

[XavierMace]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=435745

Did you actually just use MSN to try to defend your point? The same MSN that managed to put the VW Bug on both their worst used cars to buy and 10 best used cars to buy list in the same day? I recommend reading their auto stuff on a regular basis. It's laughably ill-informed.

I would trust MSN's car knowledge about as much as I'd trust an Amish man's.

 

[ND40oz]

Torque vectoring systems definitely help with handling, if you like C&D articles, here's one on Dynamic Performance Control: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/bmw-x5-m-and-x6-dynamic-performance-control-perks-up-handling

 

[railer]

Your sources have absolutely not quantitative data to support their conclusions. <snipped>

^ This is the correct answer. See, your tires don't know, and can't know, whether they're being driven or not. So if you're in a rwd vehicle, going 130 mph around a sharp corner, your front tires have exactly the same amount of grip as they would if you have awd vehicle. That is true in wet, dry , or icey conditoins. awd can absolutely help in acceleration, or going up a hill in icey conditions, etc. Awd could also help in a race environment, say if you're going so fast that you actually exceed the grip of your rear tires.
But for spirited driving around town....then no, awd will never help you corner, unless you're specifically talking about accelerating through a corner on snow/ice. It certainly will not help you "stick to the road" any better than 2wd.

 

[LTC8K6]

A heavier vehicle might require more traction, but it also has more traction, due to it's weight.

On the show Ice Road Truckers, the drivers always wanted heavier loads for traction. Empty trailers were far more likely to need chains to get moving. Empty trailers could not climb hills nearly as well as a heavily loaded trailer.

And of course we all know the old "put some weight in the back" rule for winter driving.

All wheel drive also engine brakes more evenly on a slippery surface when you take your foot off the throttle.

Front or rear wheel drive is slightly more likely to spin or understeer due to engine braking only on the rear or front axle.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Your sources have absolutely not quantitative data to support their conclusions. They are written by apparently un-technical people with no apparent understanding of physics. AWD cars can certainly FEEL like they're cornering better, but the plain and simple truth is that AWD CANNOT GRIP ANY BETTER than a 2WD vehicle in turns.

Wait, the links you provided that I replied to do? No. Wow. I can find more links if you want but not worth discussing it with you. Have you driven an Acura SH-AWD system? No. And I love how your new links reference 4WD.