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Bernie's out

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
More defeatism. Just what we need. I don't think this will be a conventional campaign with personal appearances, rallies & all that, not with the ongoing onslaught that covid19 will present. Some high degree of social distancing will obviously prevail. If not then the number of dead will condemn Trump to defeat, anyway. The economy will still be in the shitter, actually worse as people exhaust their reserves & lending gets extremely tight. We'll need answers that GOP ideology simply can't provide.
This is one way to look at it. Another way, one you aren't factoring in, in my opinion, is that everything is already lost, that the propagandized state of the American people and the hatchet job done on them by the Republican party at the behest of the 1% means that democracy itself has been defeated. You are fighting to change the party of the funeral director, not reawaken the defunct American Spirit. The game is over except for what to call the corpse. You push optimism in nothing to deny the real defeatism, that everything you fear has already happened.

America lives in a state of mind control. No sighs of life are allowed. You offer the option to run the Matrix with batteries or fuel cells. The red pill can be taken only one person at a time. But humanity is asleep.

This was written hours before the post time.
 

ondma

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2018
1,736
553
106
This is one way to look at it. Another way, one you aren't factoring in, in my opinion, is that everything is already lost, that the propagandized state of the American people and the hatchet job done on them by the Republican party at the behest of the 1% means that democracy itself has been defeated. You are fighting to change the party of the funeral director, not reawaken the defunct American Spirit. The game is over except for what to call the corpse. You push optimism in nothing to deny the real defeatism, that everything you fear has already happened.

America lives in a state of mind control. No sighs of life are allowed. You offer the option to run the Matrix with batteries or fuel cells. The red pill can be taken only one person at a time. But humanity is asleep.

This was written hours before the post time.
What you say is not true for everyone, but it is undeniably true for the base. Trying to reason with them is useless; they are immune to logic. And scarily, some who were not in the base in 2016 have bought into the rhetoric. Trump has certainly crystallized a significant group of people with his propaganda, most effectively I think by pushing his agenda on Fox news and discrediting the mainstream media as "fake news".

For instance my son was ambivalent in 2016 (didn't even vote), and never really politically active before that. Now somehow, he has taken the pill and become a *vehement* Trump supporter. I dont understand it, but it undeniably happened. Unfortunately, I doubt that he is the only one; there must be others who have bought into Trumps act. That is why I think it will be much more difficult than some in this forum accept to defeat Trump. It is not enough to just nominate someone who is "not Trump".
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
4,608
3,815
136
This is one way to look at it. Another way, one you aren't factoring in, in my opinion, is that everything is already lost, that the propagandized state of the American people and the hatchet job done on them by the Republican party at the behest of the 1% means that democracy itself has been defeated. You are fighting to change the party of the funeral director, not reawaken the defunct American Spirit. The game is over except for what to call the corpse. You push optimism in nothing to deny the real defeatism, that everything you fear has already happened.

America lives in a state of mind control. No sighs of life are allowed. You offer the option to run the Matrix with batteries or fuel cells. The red pill can be taken only one person at a time. But humanity is asleep.

This was written hours before the post time.
I get this outlook, it may be true, but I refuse think that way and I always will be looking for any way out...

Trump has been spewing out so much bullshit now that it has deeply permeated our democracy, and we might never get the stench out. He has exploited a critical portion of a gullible disenfranchised voter base which the Republican Party apparatus had been prepping, and they have lapped up so much of his bullshit that it's the only thing they can digest now.

We may not be able to completely recover democracy now. Trump and the GOP might just undermine the election just enough to get re-elected. Along the way, warping the judicial system and embedded corruption throughout the government. And then spend four more years doing the same. The bigger issue of "Trumpism" may well endure even if he loses. Nationalism with a fascist tone and anti-intellectualism could only be rejected in 2016. If we nipped that in the bud then things would be different. Instead Trump winning spawned a movement to turn what was a fringe far right line of thinking into the mainstream. A cult of personalty so obsessed in conspiracies and lies that demeans and marginalizes experts and institutions as "The Deep State" will just fester around the next Trump who might actually be competent in being a political operator.

Sad...The only choice is the right choice.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,067
6,050
136
What you say is not true for everyone, but it is undeniably true for the base. Trying to reason with them is useless; they are immune to logic. And scarily, some who were not in the base in 2016 have bought into the rhetoric. Trump has certainly crystallized a significant group of people with his propaganda, most effectively I think by pushing his agenda on Fox news and discrediting the mainstream media as "fake news".

For instance my son was ambivalent in 2016 (didn't even vote), and never really politically active before that. Now somehow, he has taken the pill and become a *vehement* Trump supporter. I dont understand it, but it undeniably happened. Unfortunately, I doubt that he is the only one; there must be others who have bought into Trumps act. That is why I think it will be much more difficult than some in this forum accept to defeat Trump. It is not enough to just nominate someone who is "not Trump".
The fact that there are millions that fucking LOVE Trump should scare any reasonable person into voting for a flaming bag of shit simply because it isn't as bad as Trump. Reason is too much to ask. I guess we should start selling hookers and cocaine.
 

ondma

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2018
1,736
553
106
Someone who is not Trump is certainly "enough" to attempt any salvation...It's what we are stuck with.
The point is he has to get elected first. I have no doubt that if Biden manages to get elected, especially with a good choice as VP, he can assemble a cabinet and infrastructure that will do a much better job than Trump, and at least make a start toward turning the country in the right direction. Whether Biden has the energy, focus and coherency to defeat Trump is the big question.
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,549
2,671
126
Which, I'll absolutely admit I've been an asshole to Bernie Bros, and I'll gladly stop as I don't enjoy it, and there's nothing to gain for either of us by it continuing as it'll just further fuel the divide. I could not stand by and accept some of the behavior exhibited, as it is literally the exact same behavior of people like Turmp and his supporters, and I have been calling that shit out the entire time, so its not because I'm just hateful of you or Bernie (but like I've said repeatedly, the Bernie Bros I've known were incredibly dishonest and were always going to vote Turmp and never actually supported Bernie; which I don't believe most of the people I've labeled Bernie Bros on here - very probably unfairly or at least making the equivalence that you are the same as those before - are that way, but I'm mindful that people are often not honest). If you're being honest about your beliefs and you're really are just passionate about Bernie's policies, we have far more in common than not and absolutely do want the same thing. But we've got to work towards that. I get the indignance, I even applaud it to a certain degree. I just want you to focus it in the right direction, and I feel it is misguided currently.

I agree, Biden is a poor candidate. I've never had fondness for him. He was just the kinda weird "Uncle" guy that Obama had as his VP. At best, he's a garden variety old school centrist style politician for the most part, and I think he's often less than that. Which I don't view as a great positive, but I also can see that's still FAR left of where Republicans/Conservatives are these days. Even when I don't agree with him, I don't see Biden being openly hateful like those are (and I haven't heard that he's two-faced and is hateful like that behind closed doors). And that can be worked with. He might not seem like a step in that direction, but it is, merely by it bringing us a step back from the cliff that Republicans keep pushing us towards.

I promise you that there is a coalition of people that are going to vote Biden that will also push for policies like those of Bernie. I won't promise that it'll get results you want quickly (that it'll happen under Biden even), but there will be people pushing things that direction. And Biden is not the final step. He wasn't the first, he won't be the last (ok, well maybe some asteroid or some cosmic event will make me a liar). Its just a step along the way. Its not easy to see, but even in the face of the past few years, of Turmp, there has been some progress. Just like there has been throughout. It happens in our darkest times. And we need to be pushing always for it. Good times too, when its easy to take it easy and not think about there still being a long way to go. We saw that in the 90s, and in hindsight, we see how it can cause backslides.

The important thing is to recognize what we are in fact fighting both against and for. We really are facing one of the most serious times in human history. I do not lightly make accusations about modern right wing politics, these are not empty claims just because I'm partisan. There have been a lot of warning signs about what they are pushing for and we need to heed them before its too late. And we have enough issues ahead of us as it is. Stuff like climate change, which even if societies in general all over the world work together, we will still struggle mightily to deal with. And because of those struggles it makes it easier for people with ill intent to seek power and manipulate it for their own goals. It is vital that we work together.

We can certainly disagree some as well, we don't need to silence dissent and disagreement. If he wins the election, it will be vital for us to hold Biden accountable, just the same as we've tried to for Turmp, and it will be vital for us to do that for all that we deign to give office, and therefore the power of, to. I like Bernie's policies, but I personally am not enamored with him as far as political clout goes (I don't feel he has enough broad support and he also hasn't shown the ability to get broad support including necessary compromises, for the huge policies he's wanting, so I worry they'd end up going nowhere while he'd just keep raging about it, so it would seem like a version of Turmp that I would actually be sympathetic towards as I support the policies). I also have a better idea of how Biden will act when confronted with situations that arose, and that's one of the few aspects that I view him favorably on. I don't necessarily view Bernie unfavorably in that regard, I don't have information in regards to that. It'd be nice if we could separate from persons and instead vote on policies. But that will have its own issues. So, instead, the best we can do is vote for the better candidate, and then try to pressure them to do as well as we can. I think that not only is the starting point with Biden much better, but he'd be more agreeable to pushing things there. Especially if we can galvanize people like Sanders and Warren to provide the pressure via well designed policy with favorable response from Americans (which seems to be the case on a good amount of Bernie's policies, and I have to imagine there will be more broad support for health care after this) coupled with analysis (i.e., Sanders taking his Medicare for all and having it pretty thoroughly vetted for economic costs). I think Biden will listen. Could definitely be wishful thinking, but perhaps this might potentially be an opportunity where we could get movement towards Sanders policies, but without the political baggage (which we saw with the ACA can drastically impact it). So Biden could possibly make a broad sell to the American people easier, or perhaps even just a transition (he doesn't seem to personally believe in Medicare for all, but he does support a public option for health care insurance which might be the next step needed to get to single payer), and Republicans can't just demonize it based on Bernie/Socialism/boogeyman nonsense.

Can we get there? I don't know. I know its a lot more likely if we work together than us taking our current paths. But I also know that diehard Bernie supporters have more to sacrifice to get there, so its easier for me to sit here and say these things than it is for them to hear them.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
The point is he has to get elected first. I have no doubt that if Biden manages to get elected, especially with a good choice as VP, he can assemble a cabinet and infrastructure that will do a much better job than Trump, and at least make a start toward turning the country in the right direction. Whether Biden has the energy, focus and coherency to defeat Trump is the big question.
He's off to a good start-

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,830
2,928
126
Which, I'll absolutely admit I've been an asshole to Bernie Bros, and I'll gladly stop as I don't enjoy it, and there's nothing to gain for either of us by it continuing as it'll just further fuel the divide. I could not stand by and accept some of the behavior exhibited, as it is literally the exact same behavior of people like Turmp and his supporters, and I have been calling that shit out the entire time, so its not because I'm just hateful of you or Bernie (but like I've said repeatedly, the Bernie Bros I've known were incredibly dishonest and were always going to vote Turmp and never actually supported Bernie; which I don't believe most of the people I've labeled Bernie Bros on here - very probably unfairly or at least making the equivalence that you are the same as those before - are that way, but I'm mindful that people are often not honest). If you're being honest about your beliefs and you're really are just passionate about Bernie's policies, we have far more in common than not and absolutely do want the same thing. But we've got to work towards that. I get the indignance, I even applaud it to a certain degree. I just want you to focus it in the right direction, and I feel it is misguided currently.

I agree, Biden is a poor candidate. I've never had fondness for him. He was just the kinda weird "Uncle" guy that Obama had as his VP. At best, he's a garden variety old school centrist style politician for the most part, and I think he's often less than that. Which I don't view as a great positive, but I also can see that's still FAR left of where Republicans/Conservatives are these days. Even when I don't agree with him, I don't see Biden being openly hateful like those are (and I haven't heard that he's two-faced and is hateful like that behind closed doors). And that can be worked with. He might not seem like a step in that direction, but it is, merely by it bringing us a step back from the cliff that Republicans keep pushing us towards.

I promise you that there is a coalition of people that are going to vote Biden that will also push for policies like those of Bernie. I won't promise that it'll get results you want quickly (that it'll happen under Biden even), but there will be people pushing things that direction. And Biden is not the final step. He wasn't the first, he won't be the last (ok, well maybe some asteroid or some cosmic event will make me a liar). Its just a step along the way. Its not easy to see, but even in the face of the past few years, of Turmp, there has been some progress. Just like there has been throughout. It happens in our darkest times. And we need to be pushing always for it. Good times too, when its easy to take it easy and not think about there still being a long way to go. We saw that in the 90s, and in hindsight, we see how it can cause backslides.

The important thing is to recognize what we are in fact fighting both against and for. We really are facing one of the most serious times in human history. I do not lightly make accusations about modern right wing politics, these are not empty claims just because I'm partisan. There have been a lot of warning signs about what they are pushing for and we need to heed them before its too late. And we have enough issues ahead of us as it is. Stuff like climate change, which even if societies in general all over the world work together, we will still struggle mightily to deal with. And because of those struggles it makes it easier for people with ill intent to seek power and manipulate it for their own goals. It is vital that we work together.

We can certainly disagree some as well, we don't need to silence dissent and disagreement. If he wins the election, it will be vital for us to hold Biden accountable, just the same as we've tried to for Turmp, and it will be vital for us to do that for all that we deign to give office, and therefore the power of, to. I like Bernie's policies, but I personally am not enamored with him as far as political clout goes (I don't feel he has enough broad support and he also hasn't shown the ability to get broad support including necessary compromises, for the huge policies he's wanting, so I worry they'd end up going nowhere while he'd just keep raging about it, so it would seem like a version of Turmp that I would actually be sympathetic towards as I support the policies). I also have a better idea of how Biden will act when confronted with situations that arose, and that's one of the few aspects that I view him favorably on. I don't necessarily view Bernie unfavorably in that regard, I don't have information in regards to that. It'd be nice if we could separate from persons and instead vote on policies. But that will have its own issues. So, instead, the best we can do is vote for the better candidate, and then try to pressure them to do as well as we can. I think that not only is the starting point with Biden much better, but he'd be more agreeable to pushing things there. Especially if we can galvanize people like Sanders and Warren to provide the pressure via well designed policy with favorable response from Americans (which seems to be the case on a good amount of Bernie's policies, and I have to imagine there will be more broad support for health care after this) coupled with analysis (i.e., Sanders taking his Medicare for all and having it pretty thoroughly vetted for economic costs). I think Biden will listen. Could definitely be wishful thinking, but perhaps this might potentially be an opportunity where we could get movement towards Sanders policies, but without the political baggage (which we saw with the ACA can drastically impact it). So Biden could possibly make a broad sell to the American people easier, or perhaps even just a transition (he doesn't seem to personally believe in Medicare for all, but he does support a public option for health care insurance which might be the next step needed to get to single payer), and Republicans can't just demonize it based on Bernie/Socialism/boogeyman nonsense.

Can we get there? I don't know. I know its a lot more likely if we work together than us taking our current paths. But I also know that diehard Bernie supporters have more to sacrifice to get there, so its easier for me to sit here and say these things than it is for them to hear them.
tl/dr, because the problem is that 2016 was the end of the Status Quo. The People were sending a message that the Democratic Party refuses to acknowledge.

There is no going back.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,067
6,050
136
tl/dr, because the problem is that 2016 was the end of the Status Quo. The People were sending a message that the Democratic Party refuses to acknowledge.

There is no going back.
So "the people" punished the Democrats for Republican obstructionism by breaking hard for more Republicans. Because what were the Democrats supposed to do differently from 2010 to 2016?
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
4,331
2,308
136
Bernie has been out for a while, it's just that Bernie has finally figured it out.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
tl/dr, because the problem is that 2016 was the end of the Status Quo. The People were sending a message that the Democratic Party refuses to acknowledge.

There is no going back.
Was that the people or the electoral college?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,830
2,928
126
So "the people" punished the Democrats for Republican obstructionism by breaking hard for more Republicans. Because what were the Democrats supposed to do differently from 2010 to 2016?
They wanted an agent of change. Hillary was not that.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,212
8,054
136
Who did the Germans run against Hitler?
No one. Those that were in charge ceded their power to him because they thought they could control him. But what do you care, democracy is dead in your mind and you’ve conceded to ceding our dead democracy to trump anyway.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,212
8,054
136
They wanted an agent of change. Hillary was not that.
“They” as in a minority of the electorate, right? The rest of America wanted competent. Unfortunately we got a politician who wasn’t great at politicking nor running a successful electoral strategy.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,467
422
126
Which, I'll absolutely admit I've been an asshole to Bernie Bros, and I'll gladly stop as I don't enjoy it, and there's nothing to gain for either of us by it continuing as it'll just further fuel the divide. I could not stand by and accept some of the behavior exhibited, as it is literally the exact same behavior of people like Turmp and his supporters, and I have been calling that shit out the entire time, so its not because I'm just hateful of you or Bernie (but like I've said repeatedly, the Bernie Bros I've known were incredibly dishonest and were always going to vote Turmp and never actually supported Bernie; which I don't believe most of the people I've labeled Bernie Bros on here - very probably unfairly or at least making the equivalence that you are the same as those before - are that way, but I'm mindful that people are often not honest). If you're being honest about your beliefs and you're really are just passionate about Bernie's policies, we have far more in common than not and absolutely do want the same thing. But we've got to work towards that. I get the indignance, I even applaud it to a certain degree. I just want you to focus it in the right direction, and I feel it is misguided currently.

I agree, Biden is a poor candidate. I've never had fondness for him. He was just the kinda weird "Uncle" guy that Obama had as his VP. At best, he's a garden variety old school centrist style politician for the most part, and I think he's often less than that. Which I don't view as a great positive, but I also can see that's still FAR left of where Republicans/Conservatives are these days. Even when I don't agree with him, I don't see Biden being openly hateful like those are (and I haven't heard that he's two-faced and is hateful like that behind closed doors). And that can be worked with. He might not seem like a step in that direction, but it is, merely by it bringing us a step back from the cliff that Republicans keep pushing us towards.

I promise you that there is a coalition of people that are going to vote Biden that will also push for policies like those of Bernie. I won't promise that it'll get results you want quickly (that it'll happen under Biden even), but there will be people pushing things that direction. And Biden is not the final step. He wasn't the first, he won't be the last (ok, well maybe some asteroid or some cosmic event will make me a liar). Its just a step along the way. Its not easy to see, but even in the face of the past few years, of Turmp, there has been some progress. Just like there has been throughout. It happens in our darkest times. And we need to be pushing always for it. Good times too, when its easy to take it easy and not think about there still being a long way to go. We saw that in the 90s, and in hindsight, we see how it can cause backslides.

The important thing is to recognize what we are in fact fighting both against and for. We really are facing one of the most serious times in human history. I do not lightly make accusations about modern right wing politics, these are not empty claims just because I'm partisan. There have been a lot of warning signs about what they are pushing for and we need to heed them before its too late. And we have enough issues ahead of us as it is. Stuff like climate change, which even if societies in general all over the world work together, we will still struggle mightily to deal with. And because of those struggles it makes it easier for people with ill intent to seek power and manipulate it for their own goals. It is vital that we work together.

We can certainly disagree some as well, we don't need to silence dissent and disagreement. If he wins the election, it will be vital for us to hold Biden accountable, just the same as we've tried to for Turmp, and it will be vital for us to do that for all that we deign to give office, and therefore the power of, to. I like Bernie's policies, but I personally am not enamored with him as far as political clout goes (I don't feel he has enough broad support and he also hasn't shown the ability to get broad support including necessary compromises, for the huge policies he's wanting, so I worry they'd end up going nowhere while he'd just keep raging about it, so it would seem like a version of Turmp that I would actually be sympathetic towards as I support the policies). I also have a better idea of how Biden will act when confronted with situations that arose, and that's one of the few aspects that I view him favorably on. I don't necessarily view Bernie unfavorably in that regard, I don't have information in regards to that. It'd be nice if we could separate from persons and instead vote on policies. But that will have its own issues. So, instead, the best we can do is vote for the better candidate, and then try to pressure them to do as well as we can. I think that not only is the starting point with Biden much better, but he'd be more agreeable to pushing things there. Especially if we can galvanize people like Sanders and Warren to provide the pressure via well designed policy with favorable response from Americans (which seems to be the case on a good amount of Bernie's policies, and I have to imagine there will be more broad support for health care after this) coupled with analysis (i.e., Sanders taking his Medicare for all and having it pretty thoroughly vetted for economic costs). I think Biden will listen. Could definitely be wishful thinking, but perhaps this might potentially be an opportunity where we could get movement towards Sanders policies, but without the political baggage (which we saw with the ACA can drastically impact it). So Biden could possibly make a broad sell to the American people easier, or perhaps even just a transition (he doesn't seem to personally believe in Medicare for all, but he does support a public option for health care insurance which might be the next step needed to get to single payer), and Republicans can't just demonize it based on Bernie/Socialism/boogeyman nonsense.

Can we get there? I don't know. I know its a lot more likely if we work together than us taking our current paths. But I also know that diehard Bernie supporters have more to sacrifice to get there, so its easier for me to sit here and say these things than it is for them to hear them.

your fake reaching out is noted


___________
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
“They” as in a minority of the electorate, right? The rest of America wanted competent. Unfortunately we got a politician who wasn’t great at politicking nor running a successful electoral strategy.
Give credit where it's due. The GOP/Trump/Russian team executed an unprecedented tour de force in the dark arts of manipulating the masses. Stunning. audacious. brutally effective. They blended hacking, social media, big data & conventional methods in a whole new way. It wasn't that Hillary ran a bad campaign but rather that the opposition ran one that was unprecedented in its methodology & effectiveness. It's a paradigm shift.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
5,387
471
126
But if it wasn’t for the two worst candidates ever, the Russian interference campaign wouldn’t have worked.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,212
8,054
136
Give credit where it's due. The GOP/Trump/Russian team executed an unprecedented tour de force in the dark arts of manipulating the masses. Stunning. audacious. brutally effective. They blended hacking, social media, big data & conventional methods in a whole new way. It wasn't that Hillary ran a bad campaign but rather that the opposition ran one that was unprecedented in its methodology & effectiveness. It's a paradigm shift.
No I think she ran a bad campaign, among many other factors that led to her loss. I mean she barely even visited the rust belt states.
 
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tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
11,516
2,726
136
Give credit where it's due. The GOP/Trump/Russian team executed an unprecedented tour de force in the dark arts of manipulating the masses. Stunning. audacious. brutally effective. They blended hacking, social media, big data & conventional methods in a whole new way. It wasn't that Hillary ran a bad campaign but rather that the opposition ran one that was unprecedented in its methodology & effectiveness. It's a paradigm shift.

I'm hoping the DNC has made adequate adjustments for this style of dirty politicking seeing as if the Repubs, especially Trump, paid a small price for the crimes he and the party committed during and after the last presidential campaigns.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
No one. Those that were in charge ceded their power to him because they thought they could control him. But what do you care, democracy is dead in your mind and you’ve conceded to ceding our dead democracy to trump anyway.
Whose interests does the government serve best, those of the rich or the poor. Now count the numbers of each group and tell me democracy isn't dead. If you are able to deny the simple and obvious what can I tell you. One thing I can tell you is that democracy is dead. In a competative capitalist system anybody who cares about anybody but himself is a fool. Let me spell socialism for you, S U I C I D E.
 

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