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Bernie's out

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ondma

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2018
1,731
546
106
More defeatism. Just what we need. I don't think this will be a conventional campaign with personal appearances, rallies & all that, not with the ongoing onslaught that covid19 will present. Some high degree of social distancing will obviously prevail. If not then the number of dead will condemn Trump to defeat, anyway. The economy will still be in the shitter, actually worse as people exhaust their reserves & lending gets extremely tight. We'll need answers that GOP ideology simply can't provide.
I would call it realism and your comments wishful thinking. I guess only time will tell.
I hope you are right, it would be worth all the "told you so's" to see Trump defeated.
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
I would call it realism and your comments wishful thinking. I guess only time will tell.
I hope you are right, it would be worth all the "told you so's" to see Trump defeated.
Please. It's not realistic to believe that this will be a conventional campaign at all. The whole issue of physical stamina will be largely moot. It's really a referendum on the GOP ideology of governance whether you realize it or not. The only way Democratic voters will stay home is if people like you can infect them with defeatist attitudes.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
I would call it realism and your comments wishful thinking. I guess only time will tell.
I hope you are right, it would be worth all the "told you so's" to see Trump defeated.
Sanders had his chance in 2016. He never should have run this year, especially after Warren entered the race. Both of them disappointed me throughout the campaign. Warren for attacking way too much and Bernie for pivoting to the exact same talking point for every single question. Both of them should have been grooming a younger candidate to carry their torch and had that person ready to go for this primary season. Apparently that person does not exist, something unsurprising given that they each thought they were so different from each other that they couldn't even team up.

Now we get neither. Now we get Biden. Another crusty old fuck. Except this crusty old fuck also comes with a bunch of shit ideas about how to fix things. At least Warren and Sanders knew the right path forward. Biden probably still thinks we need to ban video games and make pot illegal again and bust raves. The blame for getting stuck with Biden rests squarely on Warren and Sanders' shoulders.

As for the gnashing of teeth, while the bros are tired of ignorant Democrats yet again appealing to the center between way too far right and "why does our new policy come wrapped in a diaper?" I am tired of people pretending Bernie was the only person. Saint Bernie anointed to save us all from the swine, everyone else is as bad as Trump.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,637
7,708
126
Centrist democrats seem pretty good at that already.
How progressive is someone really, when they're against everyone who isn't like themselves? Food for thought.

Meanwhile, the Democrats are a 'big tent' party that values inclusiveness and working together. Bernie supporters don't share those values because of their ideological purity requirements, and so the Democratic primary voters chose another candidate. Particularly women and minority primary voters, who Bernie didn't reach out to because his support base are mostly white males who don't care if Trump gets another 4 years because it's not their civil rights getting bent over.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,637
7,708
126
Yes, definitely the ones appealing to the second-largest block of voters.
Not quite sure what you mean by this comment, but the largest block of voters in the Democratic party are women. While the most important block for this Presidential election are African-Americans in battleground states.
There's all this focus on ideology here, but the reality is that this is all about the math. Bernie didn't have it. He and his supporters are welcome to a seat at the table though, if they choose to sit in it. The Clown is making a similar offer, I know, but we all know the Bernie Bros aren't actually welcome in his crowd.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
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Not quite sure what you mean by this comment, but the largest block of voters in the Democratic party are women. While the most important block for this Presidential election are African-Americans in battleground states.
There's all this focus on ideology here, but the reality is that this is all about the math. Bernie didn't have it. He and his supporters are welcome to a seat at the table though, if they choose to sit in it. The Clown is making a similar offer, I know, but we all know the Bernie Bros aren't actually welcome in his crowd.
No, I meant the second largest block of voters next to the other block. The other block being both people crazy enough to vote for Donald Trump and people crazy enough to believe that there is not a significant enough difference between GOP + Trump vs. Democrats to overcome their "principles." Principles in this case including "my principles are more important than the additional number of people suffering and dying every day."
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
50,240
2,915
126
How progressive is someone really, when they're against everyone who isn't like themselves? Food for thought.

Meanwhile, the Democrats are a 'big tent' party that values inclusiveness and working together. Bernie supporters don't share those values because of their ideological purity requirements, and so the Democratic primary voters chose another candidate. Particularly women and minority primary voters, who Bernie didn't reach out to because his support base are mostly white males who don't care if Trump gets another 4 years because it's not their civil rights getting bent over.
It sure would be nice if you would stop treating all Bernie supporters as Bernie zealots, because you keep saying things that aren't true of any of the Bernie supporters I know in person, only online zealots.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
5,385
471
126
It sure would be nice if you would stop treating all Bernie supporters as Bernie zealots, because you keep saying things that aren't true of any of the Bernie supporters I know in person, only online zealots.
Fair enough. But it’s the Bernie or bust that are most vocal here that we’re arguing with here. But being that the only represent like 3% of the Bernie supporters that have no plans to vote Biden, their impact won’t be significant. The Obama/Trump flippers and didn’t vote at all or 3rd party are more important for Biden to get back.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,637
7,708
126
It sure would be nice if you would stop treating all Bernie supporters as Bernie zealots, because you keep saying things that aren't true of any of the Bernie supporters I know in person, only online zealots.
Totally agreed here. My younger brother is a Bernie supporter and he's not a zealot. However, these online zealots are awfully... zealous. :)
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,435
1,810
126
How progressive is someone really, when they're against everyone who isn't like themselves? Food for thought.

Meanwhile, the Democrats are a 'big tent' party that values inclusiveness and working together. Bernie supporters don't share those values because of their ideological purity requirements, and so the Democratic primary voters chose another candidate. Particularly women and minority primary voters, who Bernie didn't reach out to because his support base are mostly white males who don't care if Trump gets another 4 years because it's not their civil rights getting bent over.
Which is ironic, because Sanders platform would more directly benefit women and minority voters as opposed to the paltry crumbs offered by uninspired centrists...but socialism.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
Which is ironic, because Sanders platform would more directly benefit women and minority voters as opposed to the paltry crumbs offered by uninspired centrists...but socialism.
Gosh I have no idea how the American public got so scared of socialism.
 
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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
4,577
3,780
136
You are preaching to the choir, as the saying goes. I agree with everything you say about Trump. However, this only reinforces the desperate need for the Democrats to field a dynamic, energetic, coherent candidate who can stand up to the rigors of a long campaign, present his agenda coherently, and take on Trump head to head in the debates and win. Does this sound like Joe Biden at his current age and condition?

It is like the seventh game of the world series. Yes you need to win desperately. So who is your pitcher? An aging veteran who has lost his fastball. Game over.
So..I guess Bernie, a 78 year old with health and "cognitive decline" would have just zipped three 98 mph fastball right by him, huh?... Hell, he couldn't even bring enough fans to a game 7 of a world series to help support/cheer him to a 9th inning strikeout victory.

I disagree that ousting Trump is an impossibility, even with Biden. It's early. His VP pick isn't in, and recent polling suggests that Sanders supporters are less than half as likely to vote for Trump in November than they actually did in 2016. That's reassuring but I think every vote is going to count again this year. It's not going to be easy, but all hands on deck are needed here. You should look at this train hurtling toward destruction, and help to put on the brakes before it hurtles off the cliff. For one example, (one of many) if you care about climate change, right now we know the path that this particular train is going down. It's either going on the Biden track or the Trump track. And we know one of those is WAY better than the other. If you don't like Biden - Grit your teeth, put a clothespin on your nose and help everyone pull the emergency brake.

Bitter Bernie supporters should think that if Donald Trump gets to replace RBG, then the Supreme Court will be happily impeding Bernie's progressive agenda for the next two decades.

Its not even the supreme court. The real power is in the appellate court. The district court can be overturned by the appellate court, but very few appellate court cases are taken up by the SCOTUS. That is why McConnell has prioritized appointing appellate court judges.

There are 179 federal appellate court judges in the US. Trump has appointed 51 in under 4 years.

Even if a true powerful progressive movement emerges by, say the 2030s, a court stacked with far right judges will just overturn a lot of the laws passed on the state and federal level.

That alone is a major incentive for progressives to support both Biden and a democratic senate. Even if you don't agree or like Biden, at least he won't appoint far right judges who sit on the bench for 30 years.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,200
8,044
136
Which is ironic, because Sanders platform would more directly benefit women and minority voters as opposed to the paltry crumbs offered by uninspired centrists...but socialism.
Bernie’s platform would benefit everyone, especially with today’s pandemic. The fact that neither Bernie or warren were able to beat Biden should tell you that now isn’t the time for such change.

The play for progressives is to continue to sell their ideas to the American public so that they become normalized and not seen as extreme. They should be supporting candidates that are open to moving towards more progressive ideas even if they aren’t supportive of going all in (ie they should dump their purity testing). They should also be advocating for incremental change until the above is in place.

You, of course, won’t go for that as you demand purity from those that want your support and as a result you’ll be lucky if you even get incremental change.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
Bernie’s platform would benefit everyone, especially with today’s pandemic. The fact that neither Bernie or warren were able to beat Biden should tell you that now isn’t the time for such change.

The play for progressives is to continue to sell their ideas to the American public so that they become normalized and not seen as extreme. They should be supporting candidates that are open to moving towards more progressive ideas even if they aren’t supportive of going all in (ie they should dump their purity testing). They should also be advocating for incremental change until the above is in place.

You, of course, won’t go for that as you demand purity from those that want your support and as a result you’ll be lucky if you even get incremental change.
You forgot "for the worse" at the end there.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
4,577
3,780
136
Gosh I have no idea how the American public got so scared of socialism.
Yeah, what was Bernie supposed to do with a gaslit boomer generation that votes in high numbers and a majority centrist voter block. Beat them over the head with a socialism club. Purity and brow beating won't work. They need to be slowly brought under the umbrella with incremental changes.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
15,249
3,475
136
Trump in divide and conquer mode, bigly.

I like this line from the article:
"The thing about Trump is that his manipulations are so obvious that the only reason almost anyone falls for them is because they want to."

 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
5,385
471
126
This line from above article is so true.

“who are more focused on punishing the Democrats than they are on getting Trump out of office. No amount of denying that fact will make it go away”
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,053
6,029
136
Yeah, what was Bernie supposed to do with a gaslit boomer generation that votes in high numbers and a majority centrist voter block. Beat them over the head with a socialism club. Purity and brow beating won't work. They need to be slowly brought under the umbrella with incremental changes.
That is true. That is what we needed and got in the 90s. Then Al Gore spoke and suddenly we were the devil and have been ever since. The time for incremental change was decades ago. Now we are fucked. What the purists need to understand is that at least we can have incremental change for the better as we get fucked on the way down, or we can stick with faster and harder. Ride or die.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,131
13,071
136
Trump in divide and conquer mode, bigly.

I like this line from the article:
"The thing about Trump is that his manipulations are so obvious that the only reason almost anyone falls for them is because they want to."


Excellent article. Splitting the Democrats was a winner in 2016. It worked so well that the most extreme Bernie Bros are still fucked up today. They're like Trumpsters, in a way. People most affected by propaganda are the least able to realize that they have been.
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,542
2,667
126
It sure would be nice if you would stop treating all Bernie supporters as Bernie zealots, because you keep saying things that aren't true of any of the Bernie supporters I know in person, only online zealots.
Where did he actually do that though? He said Bernie Bros (which certainly is not all Bernie supporters and I've never seen anyone say it was), but he also clearly pointed out exactly one of the huge glaring issues that Bernie had, he keeps speaking to angry men who have been spoiled brats and its only now that they're starting to feel like women and minority voters have for decades, have chosen to lash out and turn in to childish whiners because they're mad that they have to play the game that they enabled to happen. And then they're damning everyone else for it, while ignoring any reason that people didn't vote for Bernie, and instead just calling them sheeple (they're not using that term, but the way they're talking is exactly the same as right wingers and their conspiracy theories have been, and Bernie used literally the exact same rhetoric at times as Turmp did, which is problematic but the Bernie Bros refused to see/hear it; but you know who did? women and minority voters).

And I am in that group some. I didn't give a shit about politics until about 2008-2010, when I would've been in my early-mid 20s. I used to be a "both sides" person that believe all politicians were shit, just different sides of the same coin. I still think politics as a whole is shit, but it became completely clear in 2008 (and should have been before then if I'd paid any attention, hell I knew in 2003 that the Iraq invasion was going to be a huge fuckup) that it was not equal at all, that one side was far worse. Around 2010 I became aware of what the rotten ass Republicans were trying in Kansas, which was supposed to be their test bed for policy for the nation.

Bernie supporters are fine. I would even consider myself one (but that only goes so far, there's things I really don't like about him like the cult of personality he garners because of certain rhetoric, which is why we have the Bernie Bros). I absolutely would take him over Biden but I also know things are more complex and so there's reasons other people didn't. But I am not going to have a fucking meltdown over it, like they've been having for months now.

The Bernie supporters I know in real life has been a bit of a mix, but its also not that diverse. Its basically entirely younger (20s/30s) white women (who at least say and seem to back it up, vote against Republicans even if their preferred candidate isn't who they'd get to vote for ultimately) and douchebag frat bro type of guys playing at being liberal (I don't think any of the Bernie Bros I've known in person have been Sanders supporters in reality, they certainly did not vote for him, and I know most of them straight up voted for Turmp in 2016). Hell, I bet you most of the Bernie Bros on here, raging, are Independents and couldn't vote for Bernie (so they can eat shit trying to blame others for not voting for Bernie when they fucking didn't themselves), which of course they register as Independent for sham bullshit reasons and then are surprised when shit doesn't go their way. Kinda like Bernie conveniently being a Democrat when it suits his political aspirations. But, the thing is, he's playing the game. Bernie Bros refuse to, then blame everyone else when they're doing nothing to actually change things but want to sit there and bitch at other people.

Frankly, if they want people to take them seriously and not dismiss them as childish dickheads, then they have to prove themselves. Show up to fucking vote for one (sadly for some, I'd say not voting would be an improvement if they're voting for say Turmp out of spite). Stop spreading right wing propaganda (claiming the vote was rigged, and doubly don't claim that but then claim that the Democrats should fix it for Bernie like fucking hypocrites). Stop acting like you're singularly aware of how bad things are (especially while raging when other people are saying, "Biden isn't great, but we have to deal with Turmp and the Republicans"), and fucking realize that large swaths of other people have had it worse than you for decades and not dismiss them as idiots/asleep/etc like the Bernie Bros have repeatedly done towards Democrat voters (doubly so while pissing and moaning that they themselves are not Democrats, and maybe think there might be a connection between the things there but also realizing that multi-party systems don't magically fix the issues that we've seen recently since many of them saw the exact same type of shit - rise of modern right wing wannabe fascism). And certainly don't be total scum and vote for Turmp like many Bernie Bros did in 2016.

They still have opportunity to do that, and that would be for them to vote against Turmp and Republicans in the fall. It doesn't mean you're a Democrat or support the Democratic Party, and you can keep telling us that and keep telling us how much you don't like the candidate. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with them acting like its a Sophie's Choice, where if you're being objective and rational, its very clear. You don't have to like it (hi, welcome to being an adult where you're regularly stuck with two unfavorable choices but have to choose one). Hell, I fucking HATE it, but its what is in front of us and the choice is quite simple.

And for those bemoaning the fact that its a 2 way us vs them situation (that's more than the Bernie Bros, I see lots of right wingers trying to play that's how things are and that's why they're standing up for right wing shit). That has happened no matter what, and in large part because us (as in yep, myself included) did not do enough to be vigilant and uphold the ideals of our system of government and let it fall into disrepute. But, more recently, that choice was made by right wingers trying to bring back old school fascist authoritarianism to get their way. That choice was made by them supporting openly corrupt, openly racist/sexist/bigoted ideals and policies and politicians. We really are at the stage where its not a matter of Democrat vs Republican. Its mindful modern human being vs theocratic dictatorship where people should worship the Republican Party which they believe is divinely ordained to rule. If that's a difficult choice for you, then you should be focusing your consternation inwards.

I also hope people realize, this isn't a singular election. Win or lose, the Republicans will keep going this route. They have been telling us, its a culture war. The problem is we looked at it wrong, just going "WTF" and dismissing it as nonsense. But here's the thing, we can sit and laugh that they're screaming about everything from Starbucks cups to decorations and everything else, but we're fools if we don't see that they have been gearing up for war in every other respect. Its why they've been able to galvanize gun nuts, supposed libertarians, evangelists, anti-abortion, "fiscal conservatives" (aka, wealthy middle class and higher people that want to maintain their economic caste status), racists, sexists, and rural populations to unify. They've been able to sell a culture war to each and every one of them and they've acted accordingly.

We should be happy that they stumbled upon a simple grifter looking to enrich himself, that has made their ideals plain to see. I shudder to think what happens if they'd found someone more charismatic and less openly corrupt for their own personal gain. Make no mistake, they are actively trying to create such personalities. And if you look at who those people are, they're far more right wing than even Turmp. You should now see what they are preparing for. And you should act accordingly.
 

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