Bernie vs Hillary

[SlowSpyder]

I turned it on, listened for a while as Bernie bragged about supporting the worthless assault weapons ban while Hillary argued how she wants citizens to be able to sue gun store owners and gun / ammo manufacturers for murders committed with guns as they both tried to out anti-gun each other. I can't believe how disappointing every Dem and Repub option is this election.

 

[Exophase]

Honestly, every Democrat needs to abandon the gun control issue. This is a stupid issue that drags the whole party down. Every Democrat candidate could come out and pledge that they will not pursue any form of gun control and not suffer in the polls because no sane Democrat voter is going to switch to GOP in that scenario. Meanwhile, they'd pick up a huge portion of independents that avoid Dems simply because any gun control initiative is painted as gun-grabbing.

Bernie would probably barely even mention gun control if Hillary didn't keep pushing it and using it as a political attack against him. Particularly with things like demanding he apologize to the family of Sandy Hook victims because he doesn't want to make gun sellers (and manufacturers!) be the legal scapegoat for murderers.

 

[Blackjack200]

Honestly, every Democrat needs to abandon the gun control issue. This is a stupid issue that drags the whole party down. Every Democrat candidate could come out and pledge that they will not pursue any form of gun control and not suffer in the polls because no sane Democrat voter is going to switch to GOP in that scenario. Meanwhile, they'd pick up a huge portion of independents that avoid Dems simply because any gun control initiative is painted as gun-grabbing.

I disagree here. It would be more politically expedient, but it's not the right thing to do. It's like opposing gay marriage before the tide suddenly turned on that. This country has a big problem with gun violence, and ignoring it so you can secure votes is just not right.

 

[dank69]

I disagree here. It would be more politically expedient, but it's not the right thing to do. It's like opposing gay marriage before the tide suddenly turned on that. This country has a big problem with gun violence, and ignoring it so you can secure votes is just not right.

If I agreed that we actually needed more gun control then it would indeed not be right. I don't agree though. I believe the gun violence we experience is the price we pay for our freedom to own guns.

Sure it sucks. Sure, there might be effective ways to reduce the rates and maybe some of them don't actually restrict freedom in any meaningful way. It doesn't matter if they get painted as "gun-grabbing" and a majority of Americans fall for it, which they do. Then you end up with more GOP seats and no progress on guns anyway, along with many other bad things that are much more important.

Dems need to move on. Work on grinding the GOP down while there is ample opportunity. Even with full filibuster-proof control of all branches, gun control wouldn't even make my top ten list for priorities.

 

[SlowSpyder]

If I agreed that we actually needed more gun control then it would indeed not be right. I don't agree though. I believe the gun violence we experience is the price we pay for our freedom to own guns.

Exactly. We have a freedom that carries risk other countries don't have, so of course we have more gun related deaths than other countries. If we banned skateboarding, as an example, we'd likely have less skateboarding related deaths compared to other countries. Or alcohol, tobacco, mountain climbing, etc. Freedoms carry risk, we have one that most other countries don't. We should look how to minimize that risk, but we need to do so without infringing on that right. Overly limiting the freedom isn't the answer.

 

[swamplizard]

I'll be casting my vote the 19th in favor of Bernie. First time I've ever voted in a primary when I think about it.

G' Mornin' Sonikku,

Good for you, feel the Bern!

 

[swamplizard]

I'M TIRED
of the media never holding the candidates accountable, on both sides republican and democrat.
MSNBC re-ran the town hall with Ted and his wife.
And the shit Ted claims, says, puts out there as fact the media never questions.
It drives me crazy! And after this election cycle, we'll all be ready for the nut house.
If we aren't already there.

I can't believe it.
Ted talked some crazy shit during that MSNBC hosted town hall, Ted made some ridiculous ignorant claims and remarks with no proof other than what he believes inside his teeny tiny bigoted little pinheaded brain.
And never once did host / moderator Chuck Todd call out Cruz on the shit coming out of Ted's mouth.
Chuck todd did what they all do, just let it stand as if it were fact.
And then people start to believe the all the bull is fact, and there we are.
A clueless and castrated news media never doing their job.
Doing the public a great disservice.

No wonder the country rally's around morons like Cruz and Trump, and Bush and Cheney, then later ask and wonder what the hell happen?
.
.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[lopri]

Honestly, every Democrat needs to abandon the gun control issue. This is a stupid issue that drags the whole party down. Every Democrat candidate could come out and pledge that they will not pursue any form of gun control and not suffer in the polls because no sane Democrat voter is going to switch to GOP in that scenario. Meanwhile, they'd pick up a huge portion of independents that avoid Dems simply because any gun control initiative is painted as gun-grabbing.

I do not think gun control should be out of policy debate. And I think it is important to note that gun control debates are about regulating guns to reduce human cost, not to seize guns from law-abiding citizens. All goods circulating in the market are regulated. I do not see why guns should be an exception.

I accept that possession/use of guns is a constitutional right and freedom. But we should also recognize that it is a freedom that we ideally do not want to exercise, if ever. (not counting recreational uses, such as hunting) So in that sense it has similarity with Freedom to Choose, because abortion is also a constitutional right that people wish not to have to exercise if possible.

I think a parallel can be drawn even further. Just as many believe abortion should be regulated to further women's autonomy and health, guns should be regulated to enhance responsible ownership and public safety. I see no reason why we cannot enact laws requiring fingerprint trigger lock or laws that allow victims of gun violence to bring suit against manufacturers. None of these laws hinders law-abiding citizens ability to keep and bear arms, but will actually enhance it and help improve public safety.

These are nonetheless troubling laws for the gun manufacturers because they desire to increase sales to criminals and conspiracy-mongers, who tend to be big spenders and repeat customers. And inflaming rhetoric ("The government will confiscate your guns") tends to help their sales. But responsible citizens should be able to see through all these and can make reasonable compromises.

 

[dank69]

I do not think gun control should be out of policy debate. And I think it is important to note that gun control debates are about regulating guns to reduce human cost, not to seize guns from law-abiding citizens. All goods circulating in the market are regulated. I do not see why guns should be an exception.

I accept that possession/use of guns is a constitutional right and freedom. But we should also recognize that it is a freedom that we ideally do not want to exercise, if ever. (not counting recreational uses, such as hunting) So in that sense it has similarity with Freedom to Choose, because abortion is also a constitutional right that people wish not to have to exercise if possible.

I think a parallel can be drawn even further. Just as many believe abortion should be regulated to further women's autonomy and health, guns should be regulated to enhance responsible ownership and public safety. I see no reason why we cannot enact laws requiring fingerprint trigger lock or laws that allow victims of gun violence to bring suit against manufacturers. None of these laws hinders law-abiding citizens ability to keep and bear arms, but will actually enhance it and help improve public safety.

These are nonetheless troubling laws for the gun manufacturers because they desire to increase sales to criminals and conspiracy-mongers, who tend to be big spenders and repeat customers. And inflaming rhetoric ("The government will confiscate your guns") tends to help their sales. But responsible citizens should be able to see through all these and can make reasonable compromises.

I know that and you know that but John Q. Public is fucking retarded and easily manipulated. Any gun control talk these days is an immediate loser because more than half the population can't make that distinction or don't care to try. It is counter-productive and Dems need to get that in their heads real quick.

 

[Sinsear]

No way Hillary wins New York. She's too conservative.

You realize that all the Democrats in the entire state are entitled to vote in the primary not just the hipsters in Brooklyn right?

I switched parties just to vote against Bernie in the NY primary. #NoFreeStuff.

 

[dank69]

You realize that all the Democrats in the entire state are entitled to vote in the primary not just the hipsters in Brooklyn right?

I switched parties just to vote against Bernie in the NY primary. #NoFreeStuff.

Yeah! I HATE it when the government serves people instead of corporations! #FuckingRetard

 

[SlowSpyder]

I do not think gun control should be out of policy debate. And I think it is important to note that gun control debates are about regulating guns to reduce human cost, not to seize guns from law-abiding citizens. All goods circulating in the market are regulated. I do not see why guns should be an exception.

The ATF regulates alcohol, tobacco, and firearms (and explosives today). Out of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, guns are by far the most regulated and guns kill by far the least number of people. How much more regulation do they need, especially when compared to other things that are less regulated that killed tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands more each year?

 

[ivwshane]

I think you are missing his point. He's looking at the big picture you are looking at the present. Nothing will change with the current congress we have so pushing for things that this congress won't support doesn't make sense. What he is suggesting is that dems keep guns off of the to do list so that they can gain a majority in Congress in order to enact fun control laws.

I do not think gun control should be out of policy debate. And I think it is important to note that gun control debates are about regulating guns to reduce human cost, not to seize guns from law-abiding citizens. All goods circulating in the market are regulated. I do not see why guns should be an exception.

I accept that possession/use of guns is a constitutional right and freedom. But we should also recognize that it is a freedom that we ideally do not want to exercise, if ever. (not counting recreational uses, such as hunting) So in that sense it has similarity with Freedom to Choose, because abortion is also a constitutional right that people wish not to have to exercise if possible.

I think a parallel can be drawn even further. Just as many believe abortion should be regulated to further women's autonomy and health, guns should be regulated to enhance responsible ownership and public safety. I see no reason why we cannot enact laws requiring fingerprint trigger lock or laws that allow victims of gun violence to bring suit against manufacturers. None of these laws hinders law-abiding citizens ability to keep and bear arms, but will actually enhance it and help improve public safety.

These are nonetheless troubling laws for the gun manufacturers because they desire to increase sales to criminals and conspiracy-mongers, who tend to be big spenders and repeat customers. And inflaming rhetoric ("The government will confiscate your guns") tends to help their sales. But responsible citizens should be able to see through all these and can make reasonable compromises.