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Benghazi - the gift that keeps on giving

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If I understand the critics correctly its more important for a Government to get its PR right than it is to get the situation on the ground right.

This latest right wing talking point is pathetic. Who wants their Government and Intelligence service to come to dramatic conclusions 2 hours after a chaotic situation happens?

Ill take more of this uncertainty over disastrous knee jerk reaction ala Iraq war thank you very much.
 
Obama ran on a platform that he would cut the deficit and if he did not succeed, did not deserve a second term.

No, he didn't. He said that if he didn't "get the economy turned around" it would be a "one-term proposition".

Whether he got it turned around or not is a matter of opinion. He didn't lie about anything with that quote (which was not about the deficit.)
 
Eagle suffers from the same false equivalence disease as Cybersage.

They can't distinguish between not accomplishing something (for whatever the reason) and lying about not accomplishing something.
 
No, he didn't. He said that if he didn't "get the economy turned around" it would be a "one-term proposition".

Whether he got it turned around or not is a matter of opinion. He didn't lie about anything with that quote (which was not about the deficit.)

Yes he did Do you want to see the video of him saying it . Its only a link away.
 
A comment that I read elsewhere, that sums it up pretty well...

RAL_E
If this happened under a President Allen West, this story would have been quite different.

Breaking news -

EXCLUSIVE: CIA operators were denied request for help during Benghazi attack, sources say

By Jennifer Griffin

Published October 26, 2012

FoxNews.com

Fox News has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that an urgent request from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. consulate and subsequent attack several hours later was denied by U.S. officials -- who also told the CIA operators twice to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

Former Navy SEAL Tyrone Woods was part of a small team who was at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When he and others heard the shots fired, they informed their higher-ups at the annex to tell them what they were hearing and requested permission to go to the consulate and help out. They were told to "stand down," according to sources familiar with the exchange. Soon after, they were again told to "stand down."

Woods and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the consulate which at that point was on fire. Shots were exchanged. The rescue team from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.

At that point, they called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA safe house, or annex. The request was denied.

There were no communications problems at the annex, according those present at the compound. The team was in constant radio contact with their headquarters. In fact, at least one member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound. The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights. The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours -- enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators.

A Special Operations team, or CIF which stands for Commanders in Extremis Force, operating in Central Europe had been moved to Sigonella, Italy, but they were never told to deploy. In fact, a Pentagon official says there were never any requests to deploy assets from outside the country. A second force that specializes in counterterrorism rescues was on hand at Sigonella, according to senior military and intelligence sources. According to those sources, they could have flown to Benghazi in less than two hours. They were the same distance to Benghazi as those that were sent from Tripoli. Spectre gunships are commonly used by the Special Operations community to provide close air support.

According to sources on the ground during the attack, the special operator on the roof of the CIA annex had visual contact and a laser pointing at the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. The operators were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta told reporters at the Pentagon on Thursday that there was not a clear enough picture of what was occurring on the ground in Benghazi to send help.

"There's a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here," Panetta said Thursday. "But the basic principle here ... is that you don't deploy forces into harm's way without knowing what's going on."

U.S. officials argue that there was a period of several hours when the fighting stopped before the mortars were fired at the annex, leading officials to believe the attack was over.

Fox News has learned that there were two military surveillance drones redirected to Benghazi shortly after the attack on the consulate began. They were already in the vicinity. The second surveillance craft was sent to relieve the first drone, perhaps due to fuel issues. Both were capable of sending real time visuals back to U.S. officials in Washington, D.C. Any U.S. official or agency with the proper clearance, including the White House Situation Room, State Department, CIA, Pentagon and others, could call up that video in real time on their computers.

Tyrone Woods was later joined at the scene by fellow former Navy SEAL Glen Doherty, who was sent in from Tripoli as part of a Global Response Staff or GRS that provides security to CIA case officers and provides countersurveillance and surveillance protection. They were killed by a mortar shell at 4 a.m. Libyan time, nearly seven hours after the attack on the consulate began -- a window that represented more than enough time for the U.S. military to send back-up from nearby bases in Europe, according to sources familiar with Special Operations. Four mortars were fired at the annex. The first one struck outside the annex. Three more hit the annex.

A motorcade of dozens of Libyan vehicles, some mounted with 50 caliber machine guns, belonging to the February 17th Brigades, a Libyan militia which is friendly to the U.S., finally showed up at the CIA annex at approximately 3 a.m. An American Quick Reaction Force sent from Tripoli had arrived at the Benghazi airport at 2 a.m. (four hours after the initial attack on the consulate) and was delayed for 45 minutes at the airport because they could not at first get transportation, allegedly due to confusion among Libyan militias who were supposed to escort them to the annex, according to Benghazi sources.

The American special operators, Woods, Doherty and at least two others were part of the Global Response Staff, a CIA element, based at the CIA annex and were protecting CIA operators who were part of a mission to track and repurchase arms in Benghazi that had proliferated in the wake of Muammar Qaddafi's fall. Part of their mission was to find the more than 20,000 missing MANPADS, or shoulder-held missiles capable of bringing down a commercial aircraft. According to a source on the ground at the time of the attack, the team inside the CIA annex had captured three Libyan attackers and was forced to hand them over to the Libyans. U.S. officials do not know what happened to those three attackers and whether they were released by the Libyan forces.

Fox News has also learned that Stevens was in Benghazi that day to be present at the opening of an English-language school being started by the Libyan farmer who helped save an American pilot who had been shot down by pro-Qaddafi forces during the initial war to overthrow the regime. That farmer saved the life of the American pilot and the ambassador wanted to be present to launch the Libyan rescuer's new school.

Watch "Special Report Investigates: Death and Deceit in Benghazi" on Fox News at 1 p.m. ET on Saturday, 3 p.m. on Sunday and 10 p.m. on Sunday.
 
PJabber posts truths, people ignore or marginalize him. PJabber keep posting truths, maybe one day they will open their eyes. Libya was and still is a monstrous mistake for this admin and I'm not just talking about this attack. It sucks so many self identified liberals and progressives are mgoing to vote for this Admin when they have clear better alternative in Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. Though they most likely know nothing of them as their to busy playing the R vs D game.
 
PJabber posts truths, people ignore or marginalize him. PJabber keep posting truths, maybe one day they will open their eyes. Libya was and still is a monstrous mistake for this admin and I'm not just talking about this attack. It sucks so many self identified liberals and progressives are mgoing to vote for this Admin when they have clear better alternative in Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. Though they most likely know nothing of them as their to busy playing the R vs D game.

Thanks for the support. However, I have no idea about your third party candidates and I believe Romney/Ryan are next in line for high office anyway.

I work in DC at the intersections of government, the national press and the military/intelligence communities and I get a different perspective from knowing many of the people you read about in the press or see on TV. My opinions are not necessarily formed from third party sources, even if I use them to back up my posts here. I am not a political operative and though I used to have government clearances I do not currently hold any.

Having made those disclaimers, the chatter here is that the National Command Authority - meaning the President and his closest cronies - watched events unfold as they were happening and Obama literally choked on responding. Just like he did in all of those previous opportunities he had to take out Bin Laden on less than perfect intelligence, until his hand was forced.

There is an awful amount of anger here at what Obama did not do, particularly in the special operations community. The loss of two admired operators at Benghazi and how they were were lost, and how the intel community is being tossed under the bus, has many quarters here fired up.

Consider this - the military and special ops community will move heaven and earth to help their buddies in need. When a call for backup goes out, everything else is dropped and they hit the ground running. Planning is conducted on the move, a briefing room is not required. They are trained and practiced in responding effectively with little to no notice. Sure, a formal brief, time to plan and to rehearse are invaluable. But reality bites without warning sometimes and you have to respond immediately when the situation warrants it.

Unless, as happened in Benghazi, the political risk is considered too high by political cowards and then lives are lost.

I cannot imagine sitting and doing nothing for eight hours while a firefight is in progress. I may take 30 minutes for my unit to ammo up while transport is doing their safety checks but in every rapid deployment unit, and especially in the spec ops teams, you can have substantial response forces moving in less than an hour.

But if my command said stand down I would have to do so.

Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty had people they reported to, but they were out of the military chain of command. They said fuck this and moved to support while others were obeying orders to stand down, however reluctantly.

Woods and Doherty were true warriors and the true heroes of this tragic incident. That they were not joined in a rescue attempt and were not supported in the later attacks at the annex is criminal to me.

Unless some other information comes to light, right now it is my personal opinion that the coward Obama and his toady team should pay the full political price for the lives that were so needlessly lost.
 
Thanks for the support. However, I have no idea about your third party candidates and I believe Romney/Ryan are next in line for high office anyway.

I work in DC at the intersections of government, the national press and the military/intelligence communities and I get a different perspective from knowing many of the people you read about in the press or see on TV. My opinions are not necessarily formed from third party sources, even if I use them to back up my posts here. I am not a political operative and though I used to have government clearances I do not currently hold any.

Having made those disclaimers, the chatter here is that the National Command Authority - meaning the President and his closest cronies - watched events unfold as they were happening and Obama literally choked on responding. Just like he did in all of those previous opportunities he had to take out Bin Laden on less than perfect intelligence, until his hand was forced.

There is an awful amount of anger here at what Obama did not do, particularly in the special operations community. The loss of two admired operators at Benghazi and how they were were lost, and how the intel community is being tossed under the bus, has many quarters here fired up.

Consider this - the military and special ops community will move heaven and earth to help their buddies in need. When a call for backup goes out, everything else is dropped and they hit the ground running. Planning is conducted on the move, a briefing room is not required. They are trained and practiced in responding effectively with little to no notice. Sure, a formal brief, time to plan and to rehearse are invaluable. But reality bites without warning sometimes and you have to respond immediately when the situation warrants it.

Unless, as happened in Benghazi, the political risk is considered too high by political cowards and then lives are lost.

I cannot imagine sitting and doing nothing for eight hours while a firefight is in progress. I may take 30 minutes for my unit to ammo up while transport is doing their safety checks but in every rapid deployment unit, and especially in the spec ops teams, you can have substantial response forces moving in less than an hour.

But if my command said stand down I would have to do so.

Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty had people they reported to, but they were out of the military chain of command. They said fuck this and moved to support while others were obeying orders to stand down, however reluctantly.

Woods and Doherty were true warriors and the true heroes of this tragic incident. That they were not joined in a rescue attempt and were not supported in the later attacks at the annex is criminal to me.

Unless some other information comes to light, right now it is my personal opinion that the coward Obama and his toady team should pay the full political price for the lives that were so needlessly lost.

Thanks for the post. It really deserves it's own thread.
 
PJabber posts truths, people ignore or marginalize him. PJabber keep posting truths, maybe one day they will open their eyes.
PJenna mostly spins blatantly partisan propaganda. It means rational people do not blindly swallow the "information" he provides, even though it may on occasion be accurate. Independent, credible corroboration is required. If you want to help PJ, you should teach him about the parable of The Boy who Cried Wolf.


Libya was and still is a monstrous mistake for this admin and I'm not just talking about this attack.
Perhaps, but so far we mostly have allegations and denials from partisans on opposing sides. While I don't like the way the Obama administration handled public communications, I'm not ready to condemn them for their operational response based on a lot of heresay and partisan smoke. I'll wait until we have facts, just as I didn't condemn George Zimmerman based on all the wild claims the partisans in that case spouted. It's telling that so many Zimmerman defenders are so eager to condemn in this case. Very hypocritical.


It sucks so many self identified liberals and progressives are mgoing to vote for this Admin when they have clear better alternative in Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. Though they most likely know nothing of them as their to busy playing the R vs D game.
Too many people see elections as betting on a horse race, so they refuse to consider anyone except the two xNC approved candidates. It's one of the reasons we have such poor choices from the Republocrats. My personal philosophy is that a vote for a third party has far greater effect than a vote for D or R.
 
An interview with Charles Woods, Tyrone Woods' father.

I am going to highlight some statements that stand out to me.

Father of ex-SEAL: Those who denied request for help at consulate 'murderers of my son'

Published October 26, 2012

FoxNews.com

The father of a former Navy SEAL killed in the Libya terror attack last month said Friday that U.S. officials who denied a request for help while the diplomatic compound in Benghazi was under attack "are murderers of my son."

Charles Woods was reacting to accounts by Fox News sources that a request from the CIA annex for backup was denied by U.S. officials. His son, Tyrone Woods, was killed in the Sept. 11 assault.

"They refused to pull the trigger," Woods said. "Those people who made the decision and who knew about the decision and lied about it are murderers of my son."

Woods said he forgives whoever denied the apparent request, but he urged them to "stand up."

Sources also said Tyrone Woods and others, who were at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. consulate, ignored orders by their superiors to stand down and not go to the consulate to help. Woods went to the consulate, and hours later he was killed back at the annex.

Charles Woods said his son's action "does not surprise me."

"I wish that the leadership in the White House had the same level of moral courage and heroism that my son displayed," he said.

Woods, in interviews earlier this week, also described a series of conversations he had with administration officials at the memorial service held Sept. 14. He said that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton -- despite signs early on that militants were behind the attack -- pledged to him at that event that she would pursue the maker of an anti-Islam film that had been linked to other protests.

"Her countenance was not good and she made this statement to me ... she said we will make sure that the person who made that film is arrested and prosecuted," he said on radio host Glenn Beck's online show, adding that she also apologized.

Woods said he "could tell that she was not telling me the truth."


The account shows an apparent disconnect between evidence that extremists were involved in the attack -- including a newly released State Department email on the day of the attack saying the militant Ansar al-Sharia had claimed responsibility -- and the desire by some to focus strictly on the film as the cause.

The State Department on Friday reiterated that the administration is committed to seeking justice for those responsible.

"Since the moment they were first given the terrible news of their loss, through that very difficult day when they witnessed the return of the remains of their loved ones, and every day since, the families of those killed have been a top priority of the department," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said Friday. "And everything is being done to bring to justice those responsible for their deaths."

Clinton and the rest of the administration made repeated reference to the video in their public comments in the days after the attack. U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice said on Sept 16 the attack was a "spontaneous" reaction to demonstrations over the video. The administration even funded an ad in Pakistan condemning the video.

Intelligence officials have since given a mixture picture, saying the strike was a coordinated terror attack -- but also leaving open the door to the possibility that militants reacted opportunistically to the protests in Egypt at the time over the film.

Woods also described encounters on Sept. 14 with Vice President Biden and President Obama.

He claimed that at one point, Biden came over to him and said, "in an extremely loud and boisterous voice, 'did your son always have balls the size of cue balls?'"

Woods said in the Beck interview: "I will ask you the question, is that the voice of someone who is truly sorry?"


In a separate interview with radio host Lars Larson, Woods said shaking Obama's hand was "like shaking hands with a dead fish."

Woods said: "He kind of just mumbled, you know, 'I'm sorry.' His face was looking at me, but his eyes were looking over my shoulder like he could not look me in the eye. And it was not a sincere, 'I'm really sorry, you know, that you're son died,' but it was totally insincere."
 
The battle lasted hours, and we sat by and did nothing....
We reportedly dispatched a response team within 30 minutes. Interesting that so many O'Bashers ignore this again and again. While one might (in hindsight) allege this wasn't enough, or it wasn't the right response, it certainly is more than "nothing".
 
PJABBER my attack on the admin over Libya isn't just over Benghazi incident. The whole getting involved period is my issue.
 
No, he didn't. He said that if he didn't "get the economy turned around" it would be a "one-term proposition".

Whether he got it turned around or not is a matter of opinion. He didn't lie about anything with that quote (which was not about the deficit.)
He stated that he did not deserve a second term if the deficit was not reduced in half.

In other concepts, if he did not do the job elected to do he should not get a second chance.

He did not do the JOB!
 
Tactical decisions are generally made by military commanders. From what I understand, Woods and Doherty were ex-Seals who were operating under CIA control at the time. Ultimately I don't think it was a tactical failure so much as a strategic failure, if you want to only talk about the decisions of politicians. Those with much more information than what we have ultimately made the calls that day, and unless something truly bizarre happened, those calls probably weren't made by politicians. Deference to military command is ordinary when the situation is moving faster than politicos can follow. It brings to mind Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart, who in a somewhat similar situation requested to be allowed to help, and were given permission by military authority.

It comes down to this for me :

Was the decision not to send help made by a politician? If so, on what advice?

Was the decision not to send help made by a military commander? If so, what was his reasoning?

A rush to judgment on this is probably politically motivated at best. There are a whole lot of questions we need to know the answers to before we can reasonably understand the depth of the situation.
 
PJabber posts truths, people ignore or marginalize him. PJabber keep posting truths, maybe one day they will open their eyes. Libya was and still is a monstrous mistake for this admin and I'm not just talking about this attack. It sucks so many self identified liberals and progressives are mgoing to vote for this Admin when they have clear better alternative in Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. Though they most likely know nothing of them as their to busy playing the R vs D game.

Unknown sources plus some serious speculation on the part of the article writer does not equal facts.

We still don't have a clear picture of what happened, toher than it was a confusing and dangerous situation.

We do have a clear picture of a desperate group of Republican shills grasping at anything to confirm a pre-conceived notion.

Lets face it, unless Obama had personally shown up with a flamethrower to mow down these attackers, nothing will satisfy you when it comes to the President.
 
Three years ago today, while Barack Obama demanded almost $800 billion in stimulus funds, he told NBC that the money would generate millions of net new jobs and a new period of growth in short order. “If I don’t have this done in three years,” Obama told NBC, “then there’s going to be a one-term proposition.”

He did not do what he said and he wants a second term.

I will acknowledge the splicing on the deficit.

onoe term \= a secocd term no matter how you slice it.

He have want you to think the voters will make the decision - but he failed!
 
Tactical decisions are generally made by military commanders. From what I understand, Woods and Doherty were ex-Seals who were operating under CIA control at the time. Ultimately I don't think it was a tactical failure so much as a strategic failure, if you want to only talk about the decisions of politicians. Those with much more information than what we have ultimately made the calls that day, and unless something truly bizarre happened, those calls probably weren't made by politicians. Deference to military command is ordinary when the situation is moving faster than politicos can follow. It brings to mind Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart, who in a somewhat similar situation requested to be allowed to help, and were given permission by military authority.

It comes down to this for me :

Was the decision not to send help made by a politician? If so, on what advice?

Was the decision not to send help made by a military commander? If so, what was his reasoning?

A rush to judgment on this is probably politically motivated at best. There are a whole lot of questions we need to know the answers to before we can reasonably understand the depth of the situation.

Could not agree more. :thumbsup:
 
He did not do what he said and he wants a second term.

I will acknowledge the splicing on the deficit.

onoe term \= a secocd term no matter how you slice it.

He have want you to think the voters will make the decision - but he failed!

Weak. Obama simply, factually, inarguably did not state he would not run. Those words simply are not there. He was making a prediction, that he would not be re-elected if he failed to deliver. In about 10 days, we will find out if his prediction is true. Had the Republicans run a less odious candidate, there's no doubt Obama would have been right. Given the weak economy, this was the Republicans' race to lose.
 
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