Benazir Bhutto dead in suicide bombing

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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
For once I somewhat agree with palehorse74 who points out---How about the fact of Pakistani nuke weapons getting lost in the chaos?


Heh, the battlefield has moved to Pakistan from Iraq. Looks like the US will have to 'surge' in Pakistan too. Just read an article that says the US will send more Special Forces to Pakistan next year.
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The danger of loose nukes from Pakistan mainly exists if the religious right of Pakistan can gain control. Sadly sending US special forces onto Pakistani soil can only have the effect of weakening Musharrif and enraging their religious right. And would also likely be too little to late. Bhutto was an advocate of US boots on Pakistani soil and that may be one of the reasons she is now dead. But I agree, the danger of Pakistani loose nukes is a huge danger.

It was I who asked you the question. Pakistani nukes are a great danger to the stability of that region.

Any effort undertaken to destroy or safeguard the nukes cannot possibily be greater than the devastation wrecked if they decide to get the missiles flying.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The problem Musharrif is facing involves democracy. Musharrif for his first two terms was able to play half military dictator and half democratically elected leader. But his third term will shred the Pakistani constitution and this is what much of the fight is about as Musharrif has packed the courts to avoid being ruled as unconstitutional.

And Musharrif has been forced to resign his head of the army status. It was clear to all that Musharrif had to broaden his political support and with the death of Bhutto, thats not going to be possible. And now Musharrif has made dangerous enemies in both the Pakistani military and in the broader moderate political community.

The main danger to the US is that Msuharrif will be deposed or assassinated, and the next leader likely to come from the military could make the Afghani occupation swiftly untenable.

How about the fact of Pakistani nuke weapons getting lost in the chaos?

Heh, the battlefield has moved to Pakistan from Iraq. Looks like the US will have to 'surge' in Pakistan too. Just read an article that says the US will send more Special Forces to Pakistan next year.
"more Special Forces to Pakistan"... link?

U.S. Troops to Head to Pakistan
WaPo

Beginning early next year, U.S. Special Forces are expected to vastly expand their presence in Pakistan, as part of an effort to train and support indigenous counter-insurgency forces and clandestine counterterrorism units, according to defense officials involved with the planning.

These Pakistan-centric operations will mark a shift for the U.S. military and for U.S. Pakistan relations. In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the U.S. used Pakistani bases to stage movements into Afghanistan. Yet once the U.S. deposed the Taliban government and established its main operating base at Bagram, north of Kabul, U.S. forces left Pakistan almost entirely. Since then, Pakistan has restricted U.S. involvement in cross-border military operations as well as paramilitary operations on its soil.

But the Pentagon has been frustrated by the inability of Pakistani national forces to control the borders or the frontier area. And Pakistan's political instability has heightened U.S. concern about Islamic extremists there.

According to Pentagon sources, reaching a different agreement with Pakistan became a priority for the new head of the U.S. Special Operations Command, Adm. Eric T. Olson. Olson visited Pakistan in August, November and again this month, meeting with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, Pakistani Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Gen. Tariq Majid and Lt. Gen. Muhammad Masood Aslam, commander of the military and paramilitary troops in northwest Pakistan. Olson also visited the headquarters of the Frontier Corps, a separate paramilitary force recruited from Pakistan's border tribes.

Now, a new agreement, reported when it was still being negotiated last month, has been finalized. And the first U.S. personnel could be on the ground in Pakistan by early in the new year, according to Pentagon sources.

U.S. Central Command Commander Adm. William Fallon alluded to the agreement and spoke approvingly of Pakistan's recent counterterrorism efforts in an interview with Voice of America last week.

"What we've seen in the last several months is more of a willingness to use their regular army units," along the Afghan border, Fallon said. "And this is where, I think, we can help a lot from the U.S. in providing the kind of training and assistance and mentoring based on our experience with insurgencies recently and with the terrorist problem in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think we share a lot with them, and we'll look forward to doing that."

If Pakistan actually follows through, perhaps 2008 will be a better year.

------------------------------------

I remember reading an article too when the surge in Iraq was just starting. Some US general was saying the top Al Qaeda guys were no longer there. Obviously they get out of the way when a major offensive is incoming. But the US cannot surge everywhere at once.

Benazir Bhutto was just a pawn, not a Player. I remember reading in the Guardian an article with her where she said she she was having dinner with family and friends when out of nowhere Jack Straw called her and basically said she was back in from the cold. The Brits/US had decided to roll out the red carpet for her return to Pakistan... I suppose Musharaf was supposed to be tickled pink by the opportunity to share power with her. Bhutto was a pawn that was sacrificed, but by whom and for what I do wonder.

Edit: Ah, ze Nukes. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.

 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: alchemize
There, a number I can wrap my arms around. Only 46% of Pakistanis are insane...

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/PO....pakistanis/index.html

A sad, disgusting fact. Nearly half of the country approves of Bin Laden and follows in his footsteps. Hence why the threat vis-a-vi loose nuclear materials is so very ominous and real. Yet half this country will keep its head buried in the sand...

The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

Of course it doesn't. It merely means half the country approves of a radical, extremist Islamofascist and the actions he perpetuates and orchestrates to those ends. I'd say that says quite enough.

 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: alchemize
There, a number I can wrap my arms around. Only 46% of Pakistanis are insane...

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/PO....pakistanis/index.html

A sad, disgusting fact. Nearly half of the country approves of Bin Laden and follows in his footsteps. Hence why the threat vis-a-vi loose nuclear materials is so very ominous and real. Yet half this world will keep its head buried in the sand...

Fixed!

Well, I have been warning this ever since I was here.

 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Aimster
The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

Of course it doesn't. It merely means half the country approves of a radical, extremist Islamofascist and the actions he perpetuates and orchestrates to those ends. I'd say that says quite enough.

In practical terms it means AQ has a large sea to swim in. Far larger than in Iraq.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: her209
When Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, was Judaism the reason for his assassination?

While he was an orthodox Jew, he acted independently. There weren't ortho jew groups calling for the assassination of Rabin like there were islamic groups calling for the assassination of Bhutto.

100 to 1 you'll find the actor in this case didn't do it on his own.
link

Rabin characterized as 'Nazi'

Even as opposition increased to the peace process among right-wing groups in Israel, there were never more than several hundred hard-core militants committed to violence. Still, there was an ugliness in the anti-Rabin crowds unlike anything seen before in Israel. They often they called Rabin a traitor and caricatured the prime minister as a Nazi, the very worst epithet a Jew can throw at another Jew.

It was clear Rabin was very upset by the ugly tone the domestic political debate took over peace with the Palestinians. More than once he complained that opposition from the Likud Party, which also opposes the peace process, was stirring up the right-wing hatred. The political climate had become so volatile that fears of an assassination attempt had been voiced at recent Israeli cabinet meetings.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Aimster
The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

Of course it doesn't. It merely means half the country approves of a radical, extremist Islamofascist and the actions he perpetuates and orchestrates to those ends. I'd say that says quite enough.

No it doesn't.


If someone called your house and you lived in Pakistan and asked you if you favor Bin Ladin what would you say? This is Pakistan.. an area known for kidnappings and killings. You'd put your family at risk and say NO? Must have a lot of trust on random strangers calling your house.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: ranmaniac
Benazir Bhutto had more enemies than she did hot meals. It didn't help that she also looted the country during her rule, as did Nawaz Sharif during his rule as well.

Most of these leaders followed that same tradition, including the ones beloved by history.

That's not justification for doing so.

There is no justification whatever. These people are scum and betrayers of civilizations.

Agreed.

They great kings of Europe did the same, and even our own democratically elected officials use there power to furthere there own wealth, its nothing new.

The only difference is people here don't give a crap when they do because we still have shoes and hot meals and our kids don't go hungry when they rob us blind. Over there it is not the same. So trying to play this on the "well, the east leaders are all crappy because they take advantag of there situation" is a pretty lame excuse.

You can't kill all the radicals because that will just create more, you can't compromise with them because they need someone to hate (Not in there blood, just a cause of there conditions). You can't improve there conditions because than they are giving into the west.

They either need a leader who will move them into the right direction overall (someone they just lost (though this point can be arguest on partisan terms, overall she had the right stuff to move in the right direction towards properity)), they need prosperity, they need Western fundamentals while keeping there own traditions. If the palestines had as much prosperity as Israel has there would be no conflict. For those of us who have gone overseas, or lived in these areas we know what poverty looks like and can honestly say we understand how such poverty can push someone to do the things they do. For those whose idea of poverty is standing in line for a welfare check, this is more of a stretch to imagine.

"Only in the west do the poor drive there own cars to poverty protests"
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
And the obligatory denial from BDS (Bush defense/denial syndrome) poster Pabster, who is not merely criticizing that the accurate criticism of Bush is not relevant here, but who has never admitted that the criticism is true - and says the opposite - in the threads where it is relevant.

It is not accurate criticism, and not appropriate to bring "But Bush!" to this thread. You're as big of a disgrace as jpeyton though far more vocal.

You're a far bigger disgrace. Brining up an irrelevant truth is far less a wrong than defending the lie that it isn't a truth (the truth of Bush's support for massive corruption).

No, obfuscation and lame analogies do not belong here.

Well, until recent years, nearly half of the US approved of a radical, extremist Christanifascist and the actions he perpetuates and orchestrates to those ends.

Question, Pabster: who has killed more innocents since 9/10/2001, Al Queda leadership or US leadership?

Once again, Craig, it becomes crystal clear why you have zero credibility here. Any decent point you might hit on at random is completely obliterated by utter bullshit like the above. Comparing the Islamofascists (ie AQ) to unintended civilian casualties from war is disgusting, pathetic, and inaccurate. If you truly can't see the difference...
 

Andyb23

Senior member
Oct 27, 2006
500
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Aimster
The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

Of course it doesn't. It merely means half the country approves of a radical, extremist Islamofascist and the actions he perpetuates and orchestrates to those ends. I'd say that says quite enough.

No it doesn't.


If someone called your house and you lived in Pakistan and asked you if you favor Bin Ladin what would you say? This is Pakistan.. an area known for kidnappings and killings. You'd put your family at risk and say NO? Must have a lot of trust on random strangers calling your house.

All of Pakistan isn't like that, the only place in Pakistan where the Taliban and Al Qaida have that kind of control is the NWFP. In fact before these events most of Pakistan was relatively stable due to fascist military control. The simple fact is that a good portion of Pakistanis are extremist. Many well to do, educated Pakistanis give Al Qaida, Lakshar e Toiba and other violent, evil groups money.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: alchemize
There, a number I can wrap my arms around. Only 46% of Pakistanis are insane...

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/PO....pakistanis/index.html

A sad, disgusting fact. Nearly half of the country approves of Bin Laden and follows in his footsteps. Hence why the threat vis-a-vi loose nuclear materials is so very ominous and real. Yet half this country will keep its head buried in the sand...

The poll doesn't mean half the country wants anything.

The half that either doesn't want anything, or doesn't know what it wants is probably illiterate anyway. Perfect example of potential sheeple who will believe anything, including that killing will get you to heaven.

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: Farang
What do you know about east asian politics besides the fact there are some moooslims there?

...

I mean if Pakistan isn't "South Asia" then what is? India, Bangledesh, and Sri Lanka? Seems like too small of a category without Pakistan.
It is South Asia, it isn't any where close to East Asia though.



And yeah everyone, blame Islam becuase Mulsims likely killed her, pay no attention to all the Muslims who likely would have saw her elected again if she hadn't been killed.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Pabster, statements like this is why you have zero credibility----Comparing the Islamofascists (ie AQ) to unintended civilian casualties from war is disgusting, pathetic, and inaccurate. If you truly can't see the difference.

The point being, you are only preaching to your own choir, and your inability to understand or empathize with other people or other viewpoints makes you blind to any other viewpoint but your own. And quite simply precludes the peaceful compromises that reduces the appeal of the terrorism you decry.

The point is that Craig234 is not the person who has zero credibility and you are. If you want some credibility, try pondering why people who don't agree with you have different opinions and why. If you read that little 46% poll link, you would discover that while Musharrif only polls 38%, GWB comes in at 9%. That does not suggest that the US is in any kind of shape to get any Pakistani credibility. And we are really out on a limb in Afghanistan, as all routes in or out come under the control of Pakistan or Iran.

Or to put it another way, we get more flies with honey than vinegar. And you only carry your own supply of vinegar that most people won't drink short of absolute force. And they will hate us with every sip. Since force costs big bucks, its delimiting and can't be sustained as we are discovering.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The problem Musharrif is facing involves democracy. Musharrif for his first two terms was able to play half military dictator and half democratically elected leader. But his third term will shred the Pakistani constitution and this is what much of the fight is about as Musharrif has packed the courts to avoid being ruled as unconstitutional.

And Musharrif has been forced to resign his head of the army status. It was clear to all that Musharrif had to broaden his political support and with the death of Bhutto, thats not going to be possible. And now Musharrif has made dangerous enemies in both the Pakistani military and in the broader moderate political community.

The main danger to the US is that Msuharrif will be deposed or assassinated, and the next leader likely to come from the military could make the Afghani occupation swiftly untenable.

How about the fact of Pakistani nuke weapons getting lost in the chaos?

Heh, the battlefield has moved to Pakistan from Iraq. Looks like the US will have to 'surge' in Pakistan too. Just read an article that says the US will send more Special Forces to Pakistan next year.
"more Special Forces to Pakistan"... link?

U.S. Troops to Head to Pakistan
WaPo

Beginning early next year, U.S. Special Forces are expected to vastly expand their presence in Pakistan, as part of an effort to train and support indigenous counter-insurgency forces and clandestine counterterrorism units, according to defense officials involved with the planning.

These Pakistan-centric operations will mark a shift for the U.S. military and for U.S. Pakistan relations. In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the U.S. used Pakistani bases to stage movements into Afghanistan. Yet once the U.S. deposed the Taliban government and established its main operating base at Bagram, north of Kabul, U.S. forces left Pakistan almost entirely. Since then, Pakistan has restricted U.S. involvement in cross-border military operations as well as paramilitary operations on its soil.

But the Pentagon has been frustrated by the inability of Pakistani national forces to control the borders or the frontier area. And Pakistan's political instability has heightened U.S. concern about Islamic extremists there.

According to Pentagon sources, reaching a different agreement with Pakistan became a priority for the new head of the U.S. Special Operations Command, Adm. Eric T. Olson. Olson visited Pakistan in August, November and again this month, meeting with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, Pakistani Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Chairman Gen. Tariq Majid and Lt. Gen. Muhammad Masood Aslam, commander of the military and paramilitary troops in northwest Pakistan. Olson also visited the headquarters of the Frontier Corps, a separate paramilitary force recruited from Pakistan's border tribes.

Now, a new agreement, reported when it was still being negotiated last month, has been finalized. And the first U.S. personnel could be on the ground in Pakistan by early in the new year, according to Pentagon sources.

U.S. Central Command Commander Adm. William Fallon alluded to the agreement and spoke approvingly of Pakistan's recent counterterrorism efforts in an interview with Voice of America last week.

"What we've seen in the last several months is more of a willingness to use their regular army units," along the Afghan border, Fallon said. "And this is where, I think, we can help a lot from the U.S. in providing the kind of training and assistance and mentoring based on our experience with insurgencies recently and with the terrorist problem in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think we share a lot with them, and we'll look forward to doing that."

If Pakistan actually follows through, perhaps 2008 will be a better year.

------------------------------------

I remember reading an article too when the surge in Iraq was just starting. Some US general was saying the top Al Qaeda guys were no longer there. Obviously they get out of the way when a major offensive is incoming. But the US cannot surge everywhere at once.

Benazir Bhutto was just a pawn, not a Player. I remember reading in the Guardian an article with her where she said she she was having dinner with family and friends when out of nowhere Jack Straw called her and basically said she was back in from the cold. The Brits/US had decided to roll out the red carpet for her return to Pakistan... I suppose Musharaf was supposed to be tickled pink by the opportunity to share power with her. Bhutto was a pawn that was sacrificed, but by whom and for what I do wonder.

Edit: Ah, ze Nukes. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Ahhh, excellent. Thank you! It's about time we sent in more "advisors"!

:thumbsup: to Olson!!
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Al Quaida has taken responsibility for her death.

As if anyone expected anyone else to have done it that style.

This isn't going too well.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
I agree with everything he had to say in that video.. with two caveats:

1) Our Special Forces and Intelligence services must still be deployed where and when they are needed for counter-terrorism purposes. (ie. sending more "advisers" into NW Pakistan)

2) We need to create a stable Iraq before we just up and pull out - IOW, fix what we broke.

If he caveatted his ideals with those two exceptions, I'd probably think about voting for the crazy SOB! lol... he really does say a lot of great things that need to be said...

Hell, if all he said was "We'll cut our presence in Iraq by half, and start there..." I might take him more seriously.

but the "We're pulling out everyone NOW" thing just isn't going to fly...
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Al Quaida has taken responsibility for her death.

As if anyone expected anyone else to have done it that style.

This isn't going too well.

itchin' to go back bro?
 

colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,786
21
81
"Blame it on Islam......everything is Islam fault blah blah blah!!!!

You guys really look like 12 years old kids when you say that, give it a rest. Sometimes I wonder if I control this country I can easily manipulate you guys.
"Blame it on Islam", she was prime minister before meaning she was elected by the Pakistani people I'm I wrong? hmm

You want to know who's happy after hearing this news Uncle Sam dictator Pervez Musharraf, the Saudis and of course the US administration by just making sure to have a puppet in that country and not a real elected party!

Life is not fair for those who seek freedom.
"Blame it on Islam......everything is Islam fault blah blah blah!!!!



Someone is thinking about the Box here.......