Belgium lawmakers considering banning burqas

[CanOWorms]

Pakistan maybe (formerly part of India), but the rest? Afghanistan?

Many countries in Africa, Middle East, Asia, etc. Do you really not know about colonialism?

No, there isnt. I used to live there - did you? Where do you draw your facts from? I would say a majority of Europeans are concerned about immigration but too liberal to discriminate against them, while a minority want their rights as natural citizens of Europe protected by law.

I wouldn't live there - I would be one of those marked for elimination. Your anecdotal evidence is nice, but irrelevant.

I draw my facts from human rights organizations, journalists through various sources, international organizations, etc. There are many surveys and polls in Europe on the state of affairs. It's a very popular subject, especially with the constant rise and threat of far-right parties salivating at genocide.

Illegal immigration is intensely disliked (obviously) and legal immigration is all but impossible. H1B visas are gone on the day they are available, and getting a green card is like winning the lottery. And no, all immigrants are not viewed as hostile targets over there - again where do you get this from? I lived there, are you just ignorant?

You living there means nothing. Facts, surveys, polls, etc. matter. Just do a simple google search for "europe poll immigrants" and you'll find tons of polls on several European countries. It's not exactly a secret that European political parties are essentially required to pander to far-right interests nowadays. See Sarkozy and France and the ongoing immigration/integration debate there.

Poll: U.S., Europe view immigration differently
http://www.vindy.com/news/2006/jun/07/poll-us-europe-view-immigration-differently/?print

Oh please. Some of the locals are fed up, some of them are horrified at laws like these, because they are so liberal. You actually understand absolutely nothing about the situation in Europe and are just making stuff up. You honestly dont have a clue at how liberal Europe is. Even "conservative" countries like Germany defend the rights of immigrants like its the most important thing on Earth. Same in France. Do you know what an outcry there was in Europe when Switzerland banned the building of minarets? Do you know what a minaret is? Do you know anything?

You have to be one of the most ignorant posters here. How can you cite Switzerland's banning of the minaret as helping your argument? Sure, there was an outcry from some, but then there was also applause. Minarets are banned, headscarves are banned, burqas are banned. The far-right is winning victory after victory and you just bury your head in the sand.

I don't even understand how you can talk about Germany when they had ethnicity-based citizenship laws until 10 years ago. Germany, the same country that advocated illegal concentration camps in the African desert for refugees.

Europe is not very liberal when it comes to minority and immigrant issues. I'm shocked that someone can even suggest it. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I wouldn't live there - I would be one of those marked for elimination. Your anecdotal evidence is nice, but irrelevant.

Your bias is showing. That kinda explains it then.

I draw my facts from human rights organizations, journalists through various sources, international organizations, etc. There are many surveys and polls in Europe on the state of affairs. It's a very popular subject, especially with the constant rise and threat of far-right parties salivating at genocide.

Show me these sources. From what I saw, its the most liberal place in the world. Are you telling me that the USA is more liberal than Europe? What, exactly, are you smoking? Some far right parties have gained votes because those in the middle have done nothing. The BNP, for instance. However, while that is happening, the outcry against these parties is HUGE. But you have never been there, you dont know, you assume all Europeans are neo nazi Jew and Muslim haters, when the reality is the opposite.

You living there means nothing. Facts, surveys, polls, etc. matter. Just do a simple google search for "europe poll immigrants" and you'll find tons of polls on several European countries. It's not exactly a secret that European political parties are essentially required to pander to far-right interests nowadays. See Sarkozy and France and the ongoing immigration/integration debate there.

They dont pander to far right interests, they pander to the middle ground. And my living there does mean something, you dolt. I digested news and opinions on the subject for 3 years from a variety of different sources, and the majority of that opinion was liberal in flavour.

You have to be one of the most ignorant posters here. How can you cite Switzerland's banning of the minaret as helping your argument? Sure, there was an outcry from some, but then there was also applause. Minarets are banned, headscarves are banned, burqas are banned. The far-right is winning victory after victory and you just bury your head in the sand.

No I'm afraid that is you. First, you've never been there, or visited there, but suddenly its the most racist, xenophobic place on Earth. You wont accept first hand accounts that this is not the case.

Second, because of your bias, you dont attempt to understand both sides of the immigration problem but just focus on the population group that you identify with and how you think they are being hard done by. What about the native Europeans? Do you think there concerns about immigrants are completely false and without merit? Lets not forget, you focus on the strawman arguments of the few far right elements (and I mean FEW), but ignore the more reasonable arguments that they do take jobs away from native europeans, and in some cases are an unfair drain on public finances.

So you dont understand the problem and make no attempt to, but are simply content to spout vitriol about how racist all Europeans are, which is simply not the truth.

Europe is not very liberal when it comes to minority and immigrant issues. I'm shocked that someone can even suggest it.

Again, sources? From what I saw, they are very liberal about it.

 

[Infohawk]

Ancalagon44 is the latest to find out about COW's bizarre obsession with race in Europe. It's obviously not based on fact as anyone who's spent more than a couple weeks in Europe will know COW's completely off base.

I've been curious for years what is behind COW's obsession.

My primary theory is that he was a victim of racism in Europe at some point in the past. He know extrapolates and exaggerates in some sort of retaliation.

 

[Tom]

Is Belgium a place ? I thought it was fields.

 

[KMFJD]

They day i can drink a beer in Mecca is the day they can be allowed to wear a burka?

 

[Infohawk]

They day i can drink a beer in Mecca is the day they can be allowed to wear a burka?

Exactly.

 

[TheVrolok]

They day i can drink a beer in Mecca is the day they can be allowed to wear a burka?

While I haven't really put much thought into how I feel on the topic in the OP, I have to say that your analogy is flawed. Drinking a beer in Mecca violates the religious doctrine of area, wearing a burqa does not violate anything in Belgium. Until the law passes of course.

 

[CanOWorms]

Your bias is showing. That kinda explains
it then.

Your bias is showing. That kinda explains it then.

Show me these sources. From what I saw, its the most liberal
place in the world. Are you telling me that the USA is more liberal
than Europe? What, exactly, are you smoking? Some far right parties
have gained votes because those in the middle have done nothing. The
BNP, for instance. However, while that is happening, the outcry
against these parties is HUGE.

The United States is much more liberal when it comes to minority and
immigrant rights than Europe. Think about the socialist candidate,
Segolene Royal, in the French election which resulted in Sarkozy. She
advocated army boot camp for immigrants with children. That's what
results from a liberal party in Europe when it comes to immigrant and
minority issues. They are far more to the right than even Republicans.

But you have never been there, you dont know, you assume all
Europeans are neo nazi Jew and Muslim haters, when the reality is the
opposite.

Actually, I have been there. But that doesn't matter. My own anecdotal
evidence is useless. And no, I don't assume all Europeans are Neo
nazi, etc. However, I think a huge amount are and people like you are
letting them control everything while you hide in denial.

They dont pander to far right interests, they pander to the
middle ground.

Of course they pander to far-right interests. Again, France is an
awesome example of this at this very moment with Sarkozy and his
ridiculous veil crap. What do you think is happening in Belgium with
this burqa banning? It's pandering to far-right interests.

You are correct that they are pandering to the middle ground. The
ultra far-right racist ideology has been adopted into the mainstream
over the last few years.

And my living there does mean something, you dolt. I digested
news and opinions on the subject for 3 years from a variety of
different sources, and the majority of that opinion was liberal in
flavour.

Sorry, but it means nothing. It is only a reflection of your own
experiences rather than something objective.

I have been following these issues for over a decade.

No I'm afraid that is you. First, you've never been there, or
visited there, but suddenly its the most racist, xenophobic place on
Earth. You wont accept first hand accounts that this is not the
case.

Again, I have been there. I'm not sure if I would say it's the most
racist, xenophobic place on Earth. But it's certainly at a dangerous
level.

Nobody should accept subjective first-hand accounts when debating
issues such as this. Do you not know what anecdotal evidence is?

Second, because of your bias, you dont attempt to understand
both sides of the immigration problem but just focus on the population
group that you identify with and how you think they are being hard
done by. What about the native Europeans? Do you think there concerns
about immigrants are completely false and without merit? Lets not
forget, you focus on the strawman arguments of the few far right
elements (and I mean FEW), but ignore the more reasonable arguments
that they do take jobs away from native europeans, and in some cases
are an unfair drain on public finances.

I've already addressed these points. I previously stated that the
problem lies on both sides. I also stated that the European economy
needs people as their population is aging, shrinking, and infertile.

So you dont understand the problem and make no attempt to, but
are simply content to spout vitriol about how racist all Europeans
are, which is simply not the truth.

I fully understand the problem. I've been studying it for quite a
while. There are several polls on racism among Europeans. For example,
the Eurobarometer Poll 47.1 found that 66% of the EU15 describes
themselves as racist. That was about 13 years ago and the most
comprehensive one on the subject. A simple inference would lead to an
obvious increase since then based on current events.

Again, sources? From what I saw, they are very liberal about it.

You want a source for my opinion? Or something else?

 

[CanOWorms]

Ancalagon44 is the latest to find out about COW's bizarre obsession with race in Europe.

It's one of the most commonly-reported subjects in international media. I would hardly consider it bizarre. That's like saying talking about the Israeli-Palestinian issue is bizarre. Many people post topics related to immigrant and minority issues in Europe. This thread is essentially one related to that topic.

It's obviously not based on fact as anyone who's spent more than a couple weeks in Europe will know COW's completely off base.

Of course it's based on facts. I've posted so many articles, surveys, polls, etc. on these forums.

Anecdotal evidence is not appropriate. Even if it was, I would counter and ask if you experienced a Europe as a visible minority.

I've been curious for years what is behind COW's obsession.

My primary theory is that he was a victim of racism in Europe at some point in the past. He know extrapolates and exaggerates in some sort of retaliation.

I've talked about it before. I went to Europe and was shocked at the experience, being treated as an undesirable. Ever since then I took an interest in studying European minority and immigration issues.

You seem to have an extreme interest in Islam. You have 2 recently created threads about it. I have to ask why you support a Nazi-like agenda. I guess some Muslim didn't call you "sir" and you got mad. You now extrapolate and exaggerate in some sort of retaliation.

 

[CanOWorms]

They day i can drink a beer in Mecca is the day they can be allowed to wear a burka?

Why should what a Belgian be able to do be restricted on what they can do in Saudi Arabia?

 

[OutHouse]

Your white-only utopia will lead to WW3.

do you support the middle east and their strict Muslim laws that are their arab utopia?

 

[Noobtastic]

A) No it's not that obvious. We've had our problems with American muslims trying to plot terror attacks. Or haven't you seen the news?

American Muslims are far more assimilated in the USA than in Europe. They don't live in secluded communities (fact) unlike in Europe and hatred for the West is a fraction of those polled in Europe.

B) Even if this is true, look at the numbers. It's easier to assimilate 0.5% of the population (USA) than 10% of the population (France).

No It's not. If anything it would be easier to assimilate when the population is 10%. You have more political leverage.

Meanwhile, Europeans could get high and mighty about not having a recent history of persecution of blacks. But so what? It's comparing apples and oranges.

Europeans don't have a long history of persecuting blacks because they never imported blacks into the continent. Instead, they persecuted and killed them in North Africa.

and their reports, American colonists and British settlers in Australia, killed most of the natives there. Europeans wiped out their jewish and gypsy population.

FUNNY to note that most of the antisemitism and hatred of Jews coming out of the Muslim population of Europe, is in fact bastardized European antisemitism.

When the British colonized Palestine and Iraq, soldiers imported the protocols and elders of zion, as while as their rabid hatred of Jewish rights.

this is why europeans are more willing to accept and tolerate the hatred of Muslim activist groups, because they can relate to them. But America doesn't have a sordid history of wiping out their Jewish population every other century, so we wouldn't tolerate that kind of bullshit.

This is why US media is more critical of Islamic states, while European media panders to the muslim viewers by spending most of their time covering Israel/Palestine, and practically zero covering the Muslim world.


that's what happens when you fact alongside the crazy white russians during the civil war.

 

[CanOWorms]

do you support the middle east and their strict Muslim laws that are their arab utopia?

Of course not. They are extremely racist and hostile to much of their immigrants and minorities, too.

 

[Infohawk]

Why should what a Belgian be able to do be restricted on what they can do in Saudi Arabia?

So you are for a universal multi-cultural society? Are you willing to impose this on people by force?

How far do you take this? Should be able to come into your house and do whatever I want? Is it somehow different if we're talking about countries?

 

[Infohawk]

While I haven't really put much thought into how I feel on the topic in the OP, I have to say that your analogy is flawed. Drinking a beer in Mecca violates the religious doctrine of area, wearing a burqa does not violate anything in Belgium. Until the law passes of course.

Your last sentence should hint to you that you're reasoning is flawed. Bottom line is muslim dress "violates" the cultural doctrine of Belgium, to put it in your terms. The analogy is perfect.

 

[CanOWorms]

So you are for a universal multi-cultural society? Are you willing to impose this on people by force?

There's no need to impose it by force. Every country is multicultural. There are very few modern, homogeneous societies made of humans. People have different hobbies, interests, likes, dislikes, etc. You're just creating some artificial concept as a vehicle for your bigotry.

I also think the discussion is interesting in a thread about Belgium considering it is a multicultural country. The Flanders and Wallonia issue has been flaring up again. Attitudes of cultural supremacy in the country are probably one of the many factors leading to the political instability in the country.

How far do you take this? Should be able to come into your house and do whatever I want? Is it somehow different if we're talking about countries?

Of course it's different.

 

[Infohawk]

Do you think Japan is multicultural? What artificial concept am I creating? The idea of a culture?

Well if you respect the idea that you have control over your house, why don't you accept that a group of people can have control over a certain territory?

The Flanders / Wallonia issue just goes to show that culture is important and is not some imaginary concept.

 

[StageLeft]

I guess if "they" don't like it, they don't have to move there. And that's fine and perfectly ok with me. However, for those people who are already there and this is part of their life and it's an oppressive thing. I do think truly that most of this covered face stuff is oppressive to women, but not all of it. Really there are pros and cons to it but probably more cons. let's be honest, if these women are not allowed to cover their face and their husband is oppressing them he's now simply going to lock them up in their house. Am I wrong? Of course not, so who is this actually going to help? Nobody.

 

[CanOWorms]

Do you think Japan is multicultural? What artificial concept am I creating? The idea of a culture?

I haven't studied Japan much, but I would imagine they are not very multicultural. They will of course have to change given their similar demographics issues with Europe.

Well if you respect the idea that you have control over your house, why don't you accept that a group of people can have control over a certain territory?

Your house is only yours. The country is not only yours.

The Flanders / Wallonia issue just goes to show that culture is important and is not some imaginary concept.

It's an example of cultural supremacy gone crazy. Is it ok for one to say that the other can't speak their language? I don't see how your policies can solve anything like this without constant strife, genocide, separatism, and other disorder in the world.

 

[Infohawk]

"Your house is only yours. The country is not only yours."

Are you purposefully using vague words?

If a family has a right to exclude others from that family's house, why shouldn't a large group of people have a right to exclude outsiders from their territory?

So you seem to admit that Japan is not multicultural. I take it you want them to be? Are you willing to do this by force? Why do you want to force them to be multicultural? Are they hurting anyone by being on their own island and excluding immigrants?

 

[CanOWorms]

"Your house is only yours. The country is not only yours."

Are you purposefully using vague words?

If a family has a right to exclude others from that family's house, why shouldn't a large group of people have a right to exclude outsiders from their territory?

I thought that was pretty clear. You own your home. Nobody else owns it. You own the country. Someone else also owns the country. Millions also own the country.

Trying to equate home ownership to an entire country is a huge stretch. You need to come up with a better analogy.

So you seem to admit that Japan is not multicultural. I take it you want them to be? Are you willing to do this by force? Why do you want to force them to be multicultural? Are they hurting anyone by being on their own island and excluding immigrants?

This analysis really is a case-by-case one. For many European countries, excluding immigrants does hurt people. Many European countries were developed by extracting wealth from foreign lands. Shouldn't those people be able to enjoy what their country's resources built? Especially so when those European countries are declining in population at a massive rate? It seems so much more efficient to replace the disappearing population with people. It would be a huge waste of resources to let so much infrastructure decay away.

 

[Infohawk]

I'll leave the analogy alone since you seem to recognize that in theory it's not bad for certain groups of people to exclude other groups of people. But maybe we can focus on Japan.

Japan too gained some of its riches from a short period of colonialism. Do they have to be collectively punished for this indefinitely too?

Although I recognize Europeans did wrong in the past, it really becomes messy if you continue to punish today's Europeans. No group of people is without sin. Should Spain get a credit because they were invaded by the Moors? Do Europeans get credit for building infrastructure and modern societies in their former colonies? It's all too messy. At some point there has to be a statute of limitations so everyone can move on or else the world is condemned become a larger version of the palestinian-israeli back and forth fight.

 

[CanOWorms]

I'll leave the analogy alone since you seem to recognize that in theory it's not bad for certain groups of people to exclude other groups of people. But maybe we can focus on Japan.

Japan too gained some of its riches from a short period of colonialism. Do they have to be collectively punished for this indefinitely too?

No. It's a case-by-case basis. For example, is Spain still responsible for what it did in South America? It ended centuries ago and they exerted little interference afterwards.

What about the Central African Republic? It was emancipated from French slavery in only 1960, but France continued to exert malicious actions against it, including installing a cannibalistic dictator.

Although I recognize Europeans did wrong in the past, it really becomes messy if you continue to punish today's Europeans. No group of people is without sin.

This is about governments, not people.

Should Spain get a credit because they were invaded by the Moors? Do Europeans get credit for building infrastructure and modern societies in their former colonies? It's all too messy. At some point there has to be a statute of limitations so everyone can move on or else the world is condemned become a larger version of the palestinian-israeli back and forth fight.

Look, your strategy is just delaying the inevitable and promoting a hostile conflict. As Europe's population declines and those at their border increase, do you think that they're going to be content watching all that infrastructure crumble?

Let's have a peaceful transition. That's what is happening in the United States.

 

[Infohawk]

Governments in Europe represent people. If you make a European country make reparations, it's the citizens that are ultimately paying for it. In many cases these people weren't even alive at the time of the events of which you complain of. Your idea of reparations is actually much crueller in that you seem to want to see cultures and legacies disappear completely.

And again I have a hunch you have some sort of reverse-racist motive here. You seem to take pleasure at the idea that whites in America and Europe have lower birth rates. Don't you?

Let's move on the the practical issues. Let's take the example of the Japanese again. Their birth rates are low, but it is hardly a matter of fact that they will lose their racial homogeneity in the coming decades or even century. It's a choice. I think they should have that choice. Just like I think Europeans should have the choice to keep their country culturally European. Japan is an island. It's not that hard to keep foreigners out where there is willpower. They've done it up until now and they can continue to do it if they want to. Will their economy suffer if they don't have younger workers? Sure. Will their society and ability to defend themselves collapse? Hardly.

 

[CanOWorms]

Governments in Europe represent people. If you make a European country make reparations, it's the citizens that are ultimately paying for it. In many cases these people weren't even alive at the time of the events of which you complain of. Your idea of reparations is actually much crueller in that you seem to want to see cultures and legacies disappear completely.

I have never mentioned reparations. I think that reparations are a horrible idea in most situations.

And again I have a hunch you have some sort of reverse-racist motive here. You seem to take pleasure at the idea that whites in America and Europe have lower birth rates. Don't you?

Wow. You are really all about racial pride and supremacy.

Let's move on the the practical issues. Let's take the example of the Japanese again. Their birth rates are low, but it is hardly a matter of fact that they will lose their racial homogeneity in the coming decades or even century. It's a choice. I think they should have that choice. Just like I think Europeans should have the choice to keep their country culturally European.

Lots of things are culturally European, including Islam and immigrants. And what is culturally European? Does that mean things are stuck in time? What time? 1700? Today? What happens in the future? If the majority adopts the idea that the color of red sucks, does that mean all people who oppose that cultural idea are executed for no longer being European?

Japan is an island. It's not that hard to keep foreigners out where there is willpower. They've done it up until now and they can continue to do it if they want to. Will their economy suffer if they don't have younger workers? Sure. Will their society and ability to defend themselves collapse? Hardly.

There's not going to be much willpower to use when they're a bunch of 80-year-olds and a 21-year-olds just move in.