Belgium lawmakers considering banning burqas

[Infohawk]

What you want is effectively worse than reparations. You seem to think Europeans shouldn't have to a right to exclude foreigners because of crimes their past leaders and ancestors have perpetrated. In essence, you want don't just want reparations, you want white Europeans to disappear.

I am not about racial pride and supremacy. I'm all for a world where different races mix as with the USA and latin America, and where races can choose to remain coherent if they wish like in Japan. As a practical matter I think we will see continued cultural and racial mixing but I don't think it should be forced on people like you do.

And yes, cultures evolve and change. It's a complicated issue. I see the US and Europe and many other countries merging towards a global culture. But I say the European and their elected officials should be able to decide what they want their culture to be. Just like if Muslims don't want people drinking beer at mecca they can go choose to do that. It's also safe to say that the Burqa is a product of the muslim culture.

Regarding Japan, do you really think their demographic situation is that simple? Their 20 year olds aren't going to simply disappear. They will still be millions of them. Certainly enough to defend their country from the technologically retarded overpopulated areas of the world.

 

[CanOWorms]

What you want is effectively worse than reparations. You seem to think Europeans shouldn't have to a right to exclude foreigners because of crimes their past leaders and ancestors have perpetrated. In essence, you want don't just want reparations, you want white Europeans to disappear.

I am not about racial pride and supremacy. I'm all for a world where different races mix as with the USA and latin America, and where races can choose to remain coherent if they wish like in Japan. As a practical matter I think we will see continued cultural and racial mixing but I don't think it should be forced on people like you do.

And yes, cultures evolve and change. It's a complicated issue. I see the US and Europe and many other countries merging towards a global culture. But I say the European and their elected officials should be able to decide what they want their culture to be. Just like if Muslims don't want people drinking beer at mecca they can go choose to do that. It's also safe to say that the Burqa is a product of the muslim culture.

Regarding Japan, do you really think their demographic situation is that simple? Their 20 year olds aren't going to simply disappear. They will still be millions of them. Certainly enough to defend their country from the technologically retarded overpopulated areas of the world.

I don't see how white Europeans would disappear. I'm not really sure how you reach that conclusion unless you believe that the only Europeans are white Europeans and that all the non-whites are creating a genocide against the whites.

I wonder if Stormfront is in your browser history.

 

[Infohawk]

So back to arguing that i'm a racist even though I clearly indicated I'm not. Great. It's easier than really debating right?

To sum up, you are a fan of collective punishment and think that certain Europeans should not have a right to control their culture because of certain historical misdeeds. You also think that Japanese people have completely stopped reproducing and will be overrun with immigrants even if Japanese people want to stop it.

Meanwhile I think countries should be able to _try_ to shape their culture and to exclude other people from entering their countries if that's what they want.

I'm about choice and freedom and your about ramming multiculturalism down people's throats.

 

[CanOWorms]

So back to arguing that i'm a racist even though I clearly indicated I'm not. Great. It's easier than really debating right?

To sum up, you are a fan of collective punishment and think that certain Europeans should not have a right to control their culture because of certain historical misdeeds. You also think that Japanese people have completely stopped reproducing and will be overrun with immigrants even if Japanese people want to stop it.

Meanwhile I think countries should be able to _try_ to shape their culture and to exclude other people from entering their countries if that's what they want.

I'm about choice and freedom and your about ramming multiculturalism down people's throats.

no

 

[Infohawk]

no

That's what your posts in this thread suggest actually. And you can't refute it. It's okay you can go back to being the local irrational Europe hater now. You'll always hook a few fish that haven't realized your unreasonable yet.

 

[CanOWorms]

That's what your posts in this thread suggest actually. And you can't refute it. It's okay you can go back to being the local irrational Europe hater now. You'll always hook a few fish that haven't realized your unreasonable yet.

Of course I can refute it. I simply claim that Belgian politicians should be dealt with. Then you claim that I hate white people. How did you reach that statement? To me that implies that you think that the only real Belgians are white, that the Belgian lawmakers represent white-only interests, etc. as if there is some holy race war going on. I wonder how issues with Eastern European immigrants, Roma, etc. are handled in your view. They're white Europeans but discriminated against in many Western European nations.

My displeasure over European policies is hardly irrational. Many of my thoughts on immigrant and minority issues in Europe are shared by human rights groups. Is criticism of Islam irrational? Was criticism of Bush irrational? Is someone's criticism of Israel irrational? I don't think so.

You want on this forum what you wish in the real world: clones of yourself. Where everyone will wake up at the same time, eat the same breakfast, wear the same clothes, etc. When someone wants to eat Cheerios instead of Lucky Charms, you want them eliminated.

 

[tvarad]

While I haven't really put much thought into how I feel on the topic in the OP, I have to say that your analogy is flawed. Drinking a beer in Mecca violates the religious doctrine of area, wearing a burqa does not violate anything in Belgium. Until the law passes of course.

Europeans have pretty much discarded such rigid religious mores decades ago, so you rarely see, for example, women defending their right to wear clothing that does not show their "ankles" because it would cause men to get hot and bothered under the collar (the typical argument used in defense of the burqa). More often than not, it is the freedom to wear less, not more clothes that causes controversy. In other words, the burqa issue is the "freedom to" argument turned upside down. In and of itself, it would not have caused so much controversy were it not for the fact that the burqa is also part of the ideological battle being waged by Islamists to force their extremist views on society at large. The best example of this is the violent reaction to publishing the Mohammed cartoons where one of the West's most cherished freedoms, i.e. freedom of speech has been threatened. So, a burqa is an assault on the spirit of what European society stands for which is why their governments are moving against it.

As for having a beer in Mecca, in this day and age, everyone knows that the heavens will not fall were something like that to happen. Still, I would wager that if ever a non-Muslim were allowed to visit the place, I seriously doubt that he or she would somehow insist on having a beer there though, logically, it would be probably one of the best ways to quench your thirst there.

 

[tvarad]

Why the "burqa or not" argument is not a simple one:

The Steady Erosion of Women’s Rights in Egypt: A Photographic Story

 

[TheVrolok]

Your last sentence should hint to you that you're reasoning is flawed. Bottom line is muslim dress "violates" the cultural doctrine of Belgium, to put it in your terms. The analogy is perfect.

.. how? Are you arguing that what it STANDS for violates cultural doctrine, as opposed to the burqa itself?

 

[TheVrolok]

Europeans have pretty much discarded such rigid religious mores decades ago, so you rarely see, for example, women defending their right to wear clothing that does not show their "ankles" because it would cause men to get hot and bothered under the collar (the typical argument used in defense of the burqa). More often than not, it is the freedom to wear less, not more clothes that causes controversy. In other words, the burqa issue is the "freedom to" argument turned upside down. In and of itself, it would not have caused so much controversy were it not for the fact that the burqa is also part of the ideological battle being waged by Islamists to force their extremist views on society at large. The best example of this is the violent reaction to publishing the Mohammed cartoons where one of the West's most cherished freedoms, i.e. freedom of speech has been threatened. So, a burqa is an assault on the spirit of what European society stands for which is why their governments are moving against it.

As for having a beer in Mecca, in this day and age, everyone knows that the heavens will not fall were something like that to happen. Still, I would wager that if ever a non-Muslim were allowed to visit the place, I seriously doubt that he or she would somehow insist on having a beer there though, logically, it would be probably one of the best ways to quench your thirst there.

I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I just don't believe that a Muslim woman wearing a burqa in Europe is on the same level of offensiveness as drinking a beer in Mecca would be to its inhabitants.

 

[tvarad]

I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, but I just don't believe that a Muslim woman wearing a burqa in Europe is on the same level of offensiveness as drinking a beer in Mecca would be to its inhabitants.

Why? The only difference is the thought process and if you give the benefit of the doubt to something as alien as a burqa in Europe than you should logically do the same to a beer in Mecca. After all the progress achieved towards female emancipation, Europe is figuring out that a burqa in it's midst is just as offensive. You see a difference because you have already handicapped your thought-process.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Muslims in Europe are demanding shariah law. the neighborhoods full of muslims are incapable of being serviced (police, fire rescue, etc) because the workers fear for their lives.

they are getting a taste of societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia

This is the painful truth. There have for example been many occasions in the Netherlands where ambulances where not allowed to help people and the medical staff was threatened with their lives or even beaten up by a crazed mob of mostly islamitic people. How did this happen ? One such an example is a fight between several people with the islamic religion ended in a stabbing party and one person almost died. The persons threatening the medical staff where related to the victims. And when you take a group of people, one starts, and the rest will follow behaving like idiots. Fortunately, a large part of the educated islamic people in the Netherlands condemned such behaviour quite aggressively, but that may not be enough. The lower educated part of the Netherlands that is not islamitic afcourse responds with hatred and outrage towards islamitic people. Social behaviour rules, what happened to those...

 

[TheVrolok]

Why? The only difference is the thought process and if you give the benefit of the doubt to something as alien as a burqa in Europe than you should logically do the same to a beer in Mecca. After all the progress achieved towards female emancipation, Europe is figuring out that a burqa in it's midst is just as offensive. You see a difference because you have already handicapped your thought-process.

Yeah, the more I've thought about it I think you're right. I think that perhaps I was being more culturally sensitive toward a foreign culture, than I was to my own? Which, while it may be a "nice" thing to do, is really illogical.

 

[William Gaatjes]

People who criticize Israel are anti-semites. The only logical conclusion from those types of rants.

If i compare my view of Israel, i am pro Israel. But then again, i also am against fundamentalism from any form of religion. As such i criticize some of the people in Israel for their insane views. Simple black and white views is a prime example of your posts.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I cant believe the hypocrisy in this thread. Europe has been suffering from an immigration problem for the past decade. Muslims from Islamic countries have been flooding in due to lax immigration laws, draining resources, and refusing to integrate with the local population. They have been also been responsible for a lot of violence against women, such as honour killings. Islamic states refuse to allow churches to be built, yet when a European country refuses to allow the burqa, a symbol of female oppression in Islam, to be worn, suddenly they are Jew haters. WTF?

And America is not the exception, you guys like things to stay American. Do you know how difficult it is to emigrate to America? Its the most difficult country in the world. And what law did Arizona recently pass? America may have been founded on immigration, but its current inhabitants are not very fond of the idea.

OP, what does this have to do with Danish culture? You realize the Danish are from Denmark and the Belgian from Belgium right?

How many of you even been to Europe, read the newspapers about what the Islamic immigrants are doing? No one?

Very true. Europe takes in a lot of people from various religions. All in the hope to increase the overall living standard of all the people. But politics is politics. I would like to see some immigration numbers overall and how these immigrants are treated when comparing the USA and the EU. I have nothing against the USA, but just to show the disturbed views IHV and COW have.

IHV and COW fail to see people are not united by nature if there is no common enemy. It must be learned or fractions arise, each with their own agenda.

 

[tvarad]

Another example to show that this is much more than an issue of freedom of religion. I don't think it's very difficult to extrapolate from the following report to Islamic extremists in Europe threatening women with a similar fate if they don't wear a burqa. Which is why France is planning hefty fines and punishment for those who force women to wear one.


Acid attack on Pakistani sisters in Balochistan

Three sisters have suffered serious facial burns after two unidentified men on a motorbike threw acid at them in Pakistan's Balochistan province.

The sisters, aged between 14 and 20 years old, were attacked as they walked from Kalat city to Pandarani village - one is still in a serious condition.

Political activists held a protest in Kalat shortly after the attack.

There are no reliable statistics, but campaigners say there may be 150 acid attack victims in Pakistan each year.

The police named the girls as Fatima Bibi, 20, Saima Bibi, 16 and Sakina Bibi, 14.

They were taken to a government hospital in Kalat, but Fatima Bibi was later shifted to a hospital in the provincial capital, Quetta.

No arrests have been made as yet.

Two weeks ago, an unknown group - the Baloch Ghairatmand Group (the Honourable Baloch Group) - claimed responsibility for a similar attack on two women in a market in Dalbandin city.

The group had warned women to wear the hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf, and not to visit markets unaccompanied by men from their families.

The attack was criticised by Balochistan's political leaders as well as armed rebel groups, who said it had been carried out by elements that wanted to push the Baloch people back in tim

 

[CanOWorms]

If i compare my view of Israel, i am pro Israel. But then again, i also am against fundamentalism from any form of religion. As such i criticize some of the people in Israel for their insane views. Simple black and white views is a prime example of your posts.

It seems that you are confused. Please refer to the post that I quoted. My statement is mocking Infohawk's viewpoint.

I believe that criticism does not necessarily mean hatred. However, many people on this forum do believe so when it comes to their personal subjects.

 

[CanOWorms]

Another example to show that this is much more than an issue of freedom of religion.

Yes, the immigration and minority issue in Europe goes far beyond religion. Just look at the treatment of many Eastern Europeans in Western countries.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Yes, the immigration and minority issue in Europe goes far beyond religion. Just look at the treatment of many Eastern Europeans in Western countries.

What has a group of deranged fundamental ( i would think fake)muslims who throw acid in the faces of young girls to do with east europeans ?
You really live on the moon or something ?
The poor girls are scarred and scared for life because of people who think like you.

Another victim from another acid case...

You are biased and prejudiced against europe and western and central europe in particular.

Poor kids...

Video footage :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7747621.stm

From the link :

President Hamid Karzai has called for those involved to be arrested and publicly executed
.

I hope they will go through with it.

 

[William Gaatjes]

It seems that you are confused. Please refer to the post that I quoted. My statement is mocking Infohawk's viewpoint.

I believe that criticism does not necessarily mean hatred. However, many people on this forum do believe so when it comes to their personal subjects.

Let me just quote you again :

Originally Posted by CanOWorms
People who criticize Israel are anti-semites. The only logical conclusion from those types of rants.

I criticize...

 

[CanOWorms]

What has deranged fundamental muslims who throw acid in the faces of young girls to do with east europeans ?
You really live on the moon or something ?

First of all, I don't imagine acid throwing is a religious-motivated issue but cultural or tribal.

I'm simply stating that these issues with minorities and immigrants in Europe revolve around more than just religion. Many Eastern Europeans are massively discriminated against, and most of them are not Muslim. Same with the Chinese, for example, in Italy.

You are biased and prejudiced against europe and western and central europe in particular.

I criticize their horrific social ills and political pandering to the far-right. Criticism is not prejudice. If it was, then I would say that your criticism of me shows that you are racist. Does criticism of Israel then mean that you are anti-semitic? Of course not.

 

[CanOWorms]

Let me just quote you again :



I criticize...

OH MY GOD. You can't be serious. I'm going to assume that you're joking.

Let me quote myself again:

It seems that you are confused. Please refer to the post that I quoted. My statement is mocking Infohawk's viewpoint.

 

[William Gaatjes]

OH MY GOD. You can't be serious. I'm going to assume that you're joking.

Let me quote myself again:

Your choice of words are obvious. And it is not just belgium.
Let me just quote you from another post in this thread:

Even if all these people adopt Belgian names, language, customs, etc. it will never be enough. Next will be demands to change skin color, religion, etc. They want a Taliban-like state, but with "culture" instead of religion as the primary driver.

Belgium is already a fragile and almost-failed state. Its social and political situation is leading to conflict. Are we going to sit by while yet another genocide occurs in Europe?


The European advancement to genocide is the greatest security threat to the United States and the world. All the Belgian politicians who voted for the ban should be abducted or assassinated for terrorism.

 

[CanOWorms]

Your choice of words are obvious. And it is not just belgium.
Let me just quote you from another post in this thread:

So? I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[William Gaatjes]

First of all, I don't imagine acid throwing is a religious-motivated issue but cultural or tribal.

I'm simply stating that these issues with minorities and immigrants in Europe revolve around more than just religion. Many Eastern Europeans are massively discriminated against, and most of them are not Muslim. Same with the Chinese, for example, in Italy.

You can state al you like. But it is not true. If there is any trouble, it is the same as always. People who not speak the language. And there misunderstandings arise. Afcourse there will aways be some attitude by a part of the people that jobs should go to natives first. But that is the case in every country. Also in the US. Which is nothing to be ashamed off. It just is the way it is in the current global economic climate.

I criticize their horrific social ills and political pandering to the far-right. Criticism is not prejudice. If it was, then I would say that your criticism of me shows that you are racist. Does criticism of Israel then mean that you are anti-semitic? Of course not.

You generalize to much to give any one who reads your post the impression it is not about some deranged individuals who exist in every country(sad but true) but your opinion is biased and based against all people of a country, or any european location.