Beheading of 2nd Japanese hostage by ISIS

[shira]

Right so the solution is to do absolutely nothing and let the Kurds, our ONLY allies left in the region (I don't count Turkey so long as AKP runs it), be overrun? And then the rest of Iraq and Syria be overrun, making the entire region of millions a breeding ground for extremists. What a genius. I hope you are not allowed to vote.

The entire world is currently a breeding ground for extremists. And if America takes a heavy-handed approach to the Middle East, we'll create far more extremists then we kill.

 

[blastingcap]

The entire world is currently a breeding ground for extremists. And if America takes a heavy-handed approach to the Middle East, we'll create far more extremists then we kill.

I hear lots of criticism and not a lot of solutions other than pie in the sky fantasies.

What would YOU do then? What are you advocating? A fantasy where you can simply walk away and everything will be fine? Because obviously that would NOT happen in this case.

 

[schmuckley]

And how effective was that strategy at "sweeping and clearing" insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan? How come, to this day, we haven't been able to say "bye bye, bad guys?"

Please explain to us why THIS TIME it will work so incredibly well?

It wasn't done properly.
Mostly they skittered off just out of range.

 

[bshole]

So what are YOU advocating? Turning away and letting the region be controlled by extremist fundamentalists with access to billions in oil revenue, that would make Iran look like a tame kitten by comparison? Or what?

Short answer.... yes. As long as they leave us alone, they can have whatever kind of government they want. It is THEIR decision, not OURS.

Americans forcing governments down the throats of unwilling nations hasn't worked out too well for us in the recent past. Many people would characterize our meddling as disastrous with results far worse than the original symptons.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

OK, so ISIS is something everyone loves to hate. It's hated almost as much as the US and to a lesser extent the West. Want to take an active role that means death?

1) Figure out what not to do and when to not do it. This is the Golden Standard, the metric, that needs to be applied for every action. This is absolute rule is determined by asking "what happens next" - that is what are the likely consequences of any action and what happens next again. Go down the rabbit hole.

Every single action, every single strike, everything- gets analyzed.

2) Reinvent our intelligence services. Reagan consolidated intelligence services to make them more accountable to the WH. In theory not bad, but Presidents are more concerned about party and image than mere nations. In practice this didn't work out so well. Clinton too decided to rework the agencies for his agenda. They became ineffectual. The intent was to prevent unauthorized activities, however the human intelligence component was effectively gutted when it was needed most. Bush and Co. took this and ran with it. The Republicans made the agencies answerable to one person, and he to the Administration. That meant the system was able to be manipulated to give whatever information they desired, and god help the analyst who presented intel they didn't like. Get with the program! There is a saying to the effect of "Intel is not proof. Intel is intel." It's far more complicated than "Saddam has WMDs", and when a President or officer of the administration can say "tell me and everyone else what I want to hear" we get the Iraq war, and perhaps worse. That needs to end. Obama doesn't care enough to change this in a substantial way. Feinstein only is upset when her rights are violated. Not nearly good enough.

Oversight has to happen but penalties are for cause, not for failure to toe the official line. Those who oversee mush be held accountable with Draconian punishments being the result for abuse of their position. Any officer of the government who pressure for a given outcome or perspective should be subject to first degree felony charges, and possibly treason. I don't mean "impeach Obama", or Bush if you like, but arrested, tried and if found guilty jailed, and yes while in bloody office. Pick your favorite Republican or Democrat in Congress too. Same thing. Holding office is no protection. Oversight is crucial, but tampering means public disgrace, ruin and imprisonment. No pardons. No parole. No fines. A minimum of 20 years hard time, not a plush resort.

3) We've had a foolish reliance on technology which really started in full force with Clinton. Human intelligence was passe- ECHELON grew and mutated and the need for people, spys and the identification and use of informants was horse and buggy and it has remained that way. Now Obama and Hillary his possible successor along with too many in Congress are impressed with this technological bling which has struck at a key concept- privacy- so well that many of the latest generations don't even understand what that really means, and are at times against it. Well that's how things are, and if that fixes things then all well and good, but it doesn't. In fact the claims of efficacy have not been backed up with substance. That does not mean that technology is useless, but it needs to be properly used and its limitations understood. That has not been the case. Train more people and get them in the field. Get people trained to identify individuals and small groups who can be helpful. Get people back into analyzing, not delivering tailor make propaganda.

4) At this point we have an asset doing its proper role which can be used to identify who the "good" and "bad" guys are and what they are up to. Then action can be timely and appropriate and minimize the damage the herd of elephants the US has become.

We still can't fix things. That's impossible because only the people in the region can decide their fate, but we can at least be informed as to what presents a true threats from foolish supposition. We can also act in a minimalist way to help subvert ISIS without blustering and creating yet another power vacuum while silently cooperating with those in the region who have the best interests of their people in mind. We can't even identify who those are.

 

[schmuckley]

^Well said,sir!

 

[blastingcap]

OK, so ISIS is something everyone loves to hate. It's hated almost as much as the US and to a lesser extent the West. Want to take an active role that means death?

1) Figure out what not to do and when to not do it. This is the Golden Standard, the metric, that needs to be applied for every action. This is absolute rule is determined by asking "what happens next" - that is what are the likely consequences of any action and what happens next again. Go down the rabbit hole.

Every single action, every single strike, everything- gets analyzed.

2) Reinvent our intelligence services. Reagan consolidated intelligence services to make them more accountable to the WH. In theory not bad, but Presidents are more concerned about party and image than mere nations. In practice this didn't work out so well. Clinton too decided to rework the agencies for his agenda. They became ineffectual. The intent was to prevent unauthorized activities, however the human intelligence component was effectively gutted when it was needed most. Bush and Co. took this and ran with it. The Republicans made the agencies answerable to one person, and he to the Administration. That meant the system was able to be manipulated to give whatever information they desired, and god help the analyst who presented intel they didn't like. Get with the program! There is a saying to the effect of "Intel is not proof. Intel is intel." It's far more complicated than "Saddam has WMDs", and when a President or officer of the administration can say "tell me and everyone else what I want to hear" we get the Iraq war, and perhaps worse. That needs to end. Obama doesn't care enough to change this in a substantial way. Feinstein only is upset when her rights are violated. Not nearly good enough.

Oversight has to happen but penalties are for cause, not for failure to toe the official line. Those who oversee mush be held accountable with Draconian punishments being the result for abuse of their position. Any officer of the government who pressure for a given outcome or perspective should be subject to first degree felony charges, and possibly treason. I don't mean "impeach Obama", or Bush if you like, but arrested, tried and if found guilty jailed, and yes while in bloody office. Pick your favorite Republican or Democrat in Congress too. Same thing. Holding office is no protection. Oversight is crucial, but tampering means public disgrace, ruin and imprisonment. No pardons. No parole. No fines. A minimum of 20 years hard time, not a plush resort.

3) We've had a foolish reliance on technology which really started in full force with Clinton. Human intelligence was passe- ECHELON grew and mutated and the need for people, spys and the identification and use of informants was horse and buggy and it has remained that way. Now Obama and Hillary his possible successor along with too many in Congress are impressed with this technological bling which has struck at a key concept- privacy- so well that many of the latest generations don't even understand what that really means, and are at times against it. Well that's how things are, and if that fixes things then all well and good, but it doesn't. In fact the claims of efficacy have not been backed up with substance. That does not mean that technology is useless, but it needs to be properly used and its limitations understood. That has not been the case. Train more people and get them in the field. Get people trained to identify individuals and small groups who can be helpful. Get people back into analyzing, not delivering tailor make propaganda.

4) At this point we have an asset doing its proper role which can be used to identify who the "good" and "bad" guys are and what they are up to. Then action can be timely and appropriate and minimize the damage the herd of elephants the US has become.

We still can't fix things. That's impossible because only the people in the region can decide their fate, but we can at least be informed as to what presents a true threats from foolish supposition. We can also act in a minimalist way to help subvert ISIS without blustering and creating yet another power vacuum while silently cooperating with those in the region who have the best interests of their people in mind. We can't even identify who those are.

^ Lots of pie in the sky short on actionable recommendations.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

^ Lots of pie in the sky short on actionable recommendations.

I think I've identified problems and corrective actions. That they aren't easily done or perhaps possible doesn't make them less necessary for proper results to situations like we have in the middle east. If one is bound to not support and at least recognize necessary changes then there is no point if trying to "fix" Iraq. You only have perpetual occupation to save face and it doesn't mattered what's owed to the nation we invaded. We are incapable dolts and therefore merely irritants to those in the region. Time to bring everyone back and give up on external concerns. Children who can't even listen shouldn't be armed with guns.

 

[johnwick]

They need to do something, or else the world will be dominated by ISIL and we're fucked then!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

They need to do something, or else the world will be dominated by ISIL and we're fucked then!

We aren't going to be dominated by them. They can cause trouble but just how are they going to get into the US and start beheading thousands of us? We'll slaughter them.

 

[Moonbeam]

They need to do something, or else the world will be dominated by ISIL and we're fucked then!

Yes, millions should die so you can sleep without fear of being fucked, but you yourself don't seem to be up to the killing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yes, millions should die so you can sleep without fear of being fucked, but you yourself don't seem to be up to the killing.

Oh I'm sure someone can come up with a final solution to the problem.

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh I'm sure someone can come up with a final solution to the problem.

Just for a gas we should for once just try civilization.

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh I'm sure someone can come up with a final solution to the problem.

But only once.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Just for a gas we should for once just try civilization.

Civilization would be best, but I fear it would sooner be a matter of gas. I dislike all of this a great deal. There's little thought, planning or empathy, which I suppose defines some of the positive qualities of what we call civilization. Somewhere we've evolved technically but have lost a better part of ourselves. I'm not sure when that happened.

 

[bshole]

Somewhere we've evolved technically but have lost a better part of ourselves. I'm not sure when that happened.

Um.... no..... humans have ALWAYS been murdering xenophobic assholes. That has never changed. It is part of human DNA.

 

[chowderhead]

Isis just killed the Jordanian pilot by burning him.

 

[TechBoyJK]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/02/03/isis-burns-jordanian-pilot-alive.html