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Beginning of the End for Roe v Wade?

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Greenman said:
A quick google search shows 328k abortions in 2014. That would make a fair mountain.
The stat that surprised me was that 39% were black. Think about that. Planed Parenthood has killed more blacks than the KKK ever dreamed of.
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So what? It just shows us that efforts to promote other forms of birth control haven't worked as well as we'd like for black people.
 
Greenman said:
A quick google search shows 328k abortions in 2014. That would make a fair mountain.
The stat that surprised me was that 39% were black. Think about that. Planed Parenthood has killed more blacks than the KKK ever dreamed of.
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Like how you throw the term killed around so loosely.
 
Texashiker said:
How many abortions are done "for the mothers health?"

If that were the case, minorities must be in pretty bad health.
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If you are considering late term abortions, almost all of them. If you are considering early term abortions, then its less. Are you in the "every sperm is sacred" camp?
 
blackangst1 said:
I'm not against abortion. I'm against 3rd trimester abortion.
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That's not what you said. You said *Maybe* in first trimester and only for reasons of rape an incest, otherwise it's murder. Which one is it?

blackangst1 said:
That doesn't make it right. If a mother wants too cut the throat of their toddler in the middle is the pentagram that's ok?

Sorry. Science is not on the proabortion side. *Maybe* in first trimester for reasons of rape or invest, otherwise it's murdering a life. And fuck NY for their recent law.
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Ajay: The very nature of conscience, from which our freedom of speech originates, requires that no undue burden be placed upon it. Too do otherwise is to force people against their will, in this case - legislators. Considering that these legislators have been duly elected by their constituents, forcing them to compromise their values would be to fundamentally alter their freedom of speech and repress their conscience. In what universe is this reasonable?

Probably in any where a Constitutional Government forbades laws that deny somebody's right to eat pork.

A: It is reasonable to require the government to be secular, as is made clear by the requirements of the 1st amendment. What is also clear is that the current interpretation, that is extended application of 'establishment', violates freedom of speech legally, and philosophically, abjures freedom of conscience. This is intolerable, as it is injurious, in a free society.

M: Think whatever you want. Say what you please within reason. Pass whatever law you wish but allow it to be struck down as unconstitutional so that you don't have your freedom of religion abridged and I don't have to obey whatever religious laws go along with your religious dogma.
 
fleshconsumed said:
That's not what you said. You said *Maybe* in first trimester and only for reasons of rape an incest, otherwise it's murder. Which one is it?
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First, I have to clarify what *I* personally believe versus what I think is best for the country. For me, abortion is murder in any trimester; however, if I were king for a day I wouldnt ban it. Third trimester, however, as a general rule, I would. There are always extraneous circumstances that arise, and those should be treated as such. But when the baby can survive outside the womb, its murder.

Is that clear enough for you?
 
Jhhnn said:
So what? It just shows us that efforts to promote other forms of birth control haven't worked as well as we'd like for black people.
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Why do you suppose that is? My hunch is that it will somehow be racism, but I can't come up with the mechanism.
Don't we give prophylactics away in school?
 
blackangst1 said:
First, I have to clarify what *I* personally believe versus what I think is best for the country. For me, abortion is murder in any trimester; however, if I were king for a day I wouldnt ban it. Third trimester, however, as a general rule, I would. There are always extraneous circumstances that arise, and those should be treated as such. But when the baby can survive outside the womb, its murder.

Is that clear enough for you?
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Yes, thank you for clarifying your stance.
 
Texashiker said:
Nope.

I am in the "All people are created equal" camp.

If all people are created equal, then rights start at the time of creation.
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If you are in the "all people are created equal camp", then scientifically its not a person until birth, so that would be the time of creation. I personally disagree with this perspective, and believe that at some point of development the fetus also begins to have rights.

If you are going to argue that it becomes a person upon conception, that seems extremely silly that just because a sperm merges with an egg, that suddenly we're going to consider it a person. Just as silly as it seems to consider a fetus different from a baby simply because one is inside the womb and the other outside. However, if you want to go down that path, does this mean that women that repeatedly get pregnant and then miscarry should be tried and convicted for manslaughter? After all, anyone that had several babies die because they were unable to provide adequately for the needs of them certainly would be.
 
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Moonbeam said:
M: Think whatever you want. Say what you please within reason. Pass whatever law you wish but allow it to be struck down as unconstitutional so that you don't have your freedom of religion abridged and I don't have to obey whatever religious laws go along with your religious dogma.
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Fair enough, I appreciate the shift away from limiting an individual legislator's freedom. We all have to deal with each other's dogmas, ne philosophies, or value systems. There will ways be a clash, even at a constitutional level. As much as we are are under the rule of law, those laws are always interpreted by people with their own values and predilections. Democracies are competitive systems by default; it’s always beneficial that the competition is over foundational principles vs ideologies.
 
mect said:
If you are in the "all people are created equal camp", then scientifically its not a person until birth, so that would be the time of creation. I personally disagree with this perspective, and believe that at some point of development the fetus also begins to have rights.
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Time of creation is when the sperm fetrilzies the egg, and cells start to divide. At that point a new life form has been created.

What is the difference between your viewpoint that fetus is not a real person until birth and:

Blacks are not real people.

Native Americans are not real people.

Jews are not real people... etc?

Also, if you say, "A fetus is not a real person until it is born", then you do not believe all people are created equal.

By placing the goal post at birth, then you erect an arbitrary barrier.

The birth goal post is no different than:

Being a free person to vote.

Being white to vote.

Being a white property owner.

Slaves can be killed because they are property.

Jews have to be sent to the camps because the law says so.

Native Americans have to be sent to the reservations because the law says so.

One thing democrats do is move the goal post. When republicans make progress in protecting rights, democrats find another group to victimize. In the case of abortion, the victims is the unborn child and minorities.
 
Texashiker said:
Time of creation is when the sperm fetrilzies the egg, and cells start to divide. At that point a new life form has been created.

What is the difference between your viewpoint that fetus is not a real person until birth and:

Blacks are not real people.

Native Americans are not real people.

Jews are not real people... etc?

Also, if you say, "A fetus is not a real person until it is born", then you do not believe all people are created equal.

By placing the goal post at birth, then you erect an arbitrary barrier.

The birth goal post is no different than:

Being a free person to vote.

Being white to vote.

Being a white property owner.

Slaves can be killed because they are property.

Jews have to be sent to the camps because the law says so.

Native Americans have to be sent to the reservations because the law says so.

One thing democrats do is move the goal post. When republicans make progress in protecting rights, democrats find another group to victimize. In the case of abortion, the victims is the unborn child and minorities.
Click to expand...
So according to you women that repeatedly miscarry should be tried for manslaughter.
 
Texashiker said:
Time of creation is when the sperm fetrilzies the egg, and cells start to divide. At that point a new life form has been created.

What is the difference between your viewpoint that fetus is not a real person until birth and:

Blacks are not real people.

Native Americans are not real people.

Jews are not real people... etc?

Also, if you say, "A fetus is not a real person until it is born", then you do not believe all people are created equal.

By placing the goal post at birth, then you erect an arbitrary barrier.

The birth goal post is no different than:

Being a free person to vote.

Being white to vote.

Being a white property owner.

Slaves can be killed because they are property.

Jews have to be sent to the camps because the law says so.

Native Americans have to be sent to the reservations because the law says so.

One thing democrats do is move the goal post. When republicans make progress in protecting rights, democrats find another group to victimize. In the case of abortion, the victims is the unborn child and minorities.
Click to expand...

So, Gish gallop, obviously. The last bit about Libs victimizing minorities is really quite touching, in a bad touching sort of way.
 
Texashiker said:
Time of creation is when the sperm fetrilzies the egg, and cells start to divide. At that point a new life form has been created.

What is the difference between your viewpoint that fetus is not a real person until birth and:

Blacks are not real people.

Native Americans are not real people.

Jews are not real people... etc?

Also, if you say, "A fetus is not a real person until it is born", then you do not believe all people are created equal.

By placing the goal post at birth, then you erect an arbitrary barrier.

The birth goal post is no different than:

Being a free person to vote.

Being white to vote.

Being a white property owner.

Slaves can be killed because they are property.

Jews have to be sent to the camps because the law says so.

Native Americans have to be sent to the reservations because the law says so.

One thing democrats do is move the goal post. When republicans make progress in protecting rights, democrats find another group to victimize. In the case of abortion, the victims is the unborn child and minorities.
Click to expand...
In fact, we probably should just require all men to get vasectomies, considering its estimated that 70% of fertilized eggs don't make it. At the very least, natural sex should be banned, as we can at least improve the odds significantly by using artificial insemination. Irresponsible people are killing 70% of the babies.
 
mect said:
So according to you women that repeatedly miscarry should be tried for manslaughter.
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mect said:
In fact, we probably should just require all men to get vasectomies, considering its estimated that 70% of fertilized eggs don't make it. At the very least, natural sex should be banned, as we can at least improve the odds significantly by using artificial insemination. Irresponsible people are killing 70% of the babies.
Click to expand...

Miscarriage is an act of nature and beyond the control of either party.

That is unless the mother is a heavy drinker, drug addict... does something to harm the unborn baby.
 
Texashiker said:
Miscarriage is an act of nature and beyond the control of either party.

That is unless the mother is a heavy drinker, drug addict... does something to harm the unborn baby.
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So you would support legislation requiring all pregnancies be artificially inseminated? That is within their control. After all, according to you this is a human life we're talking about.
 
Texashiker said:
Nope.

I am in the "All people are created equal" camp.

If all people are created equal, then rights start at the time of creation.
Click to expand...
If you consider a fertilized egg to be a person (which legally it isn't) then while you may believe all people are created equal, you do not believe all people are equal.

And even if you did believe the fertilized egg is equal to a person, the mother has a right to stand her ground against another person invading her body.

Perhaps if we could find a way for the woman to shoot the fertilized egg you conservatives would finally get on board and maybe even be the first true "pro-abortion" people.
 
mect said:
So according to you women that repeatedly miscarry should be tried for manslaughter.
Click to expand...

It’s more than that. Basically everyone who’s tried to have a child has had fertilized eggs spontaneously abort.

@Texashiker I believe has children and he believes it’s a child at conception so he’s aborted his fair share of “kids.”

Don’t worry he won’t take responsibility for it nor will he have treated these aborted eggs as kids. But he’ll still expect us too.
 
Texashiker said:
Miscarriage is an act of nature and beyond the control of either party.

That is unless the mother is a heavy drinker, drug addict... does something to harm the unborn baby.
Click to expand...

Someone put a gun to your head and made you have unprotected sex? No then it’s entirely within your control.

It happens 30-70% of the time. Would you put 2-4 bullets in a six shooter and play Russian roulette and says it was an act of nature when you blew your head off?

If you believe a fertilized egg is a baby then you can’t have children without a killing a few.
 
Stokely said:
You may not know many uber-Christians then. Several of my old childhood friends, and a crap ton of my extended family and their friends are Evangelicals of various stripes. They very much engage in the whole "mountains of dead babies, it must be stopped at any cost" mentality. Do they REALLY believe it? They sure seem very ardent in their beliefs to me, and I don't bother to dig in further. I don't do policial discussions with any of them, but even if I did, abortion would be the very last subject I'd ever touch.

These are largely the same sector of the Venn diagram who say things like "Trump may be imperfect, but he is the vessel used by God"....so let's just say there are different realities we inhabit 🙂 I don't venture into theirs, they certainly don't seem to care for mine....
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Pretty sure Christians claim to be majorly pro-life. Not pro-abortion. 😉
 
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