• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

BBC Documentary Reveals Al-Qaeda Is A Complete Fabrication

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon


Wow, as long as we don't talk about economics I can see us agreeing on alot. :thumbsup:
Which is why I absolutely get pissed off when somebody pigeonholes me. My thinking is far more diverse than people believe.

One funny anecdote. I worked with a guy for 2 years, I always had suspicion he was gay, but never really knew. His significant other was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and he finally had to "out" himself so that he could ask for help during periods of time when he had to help his SO. He later said he never told me because he thought I would hold it against him, since I was so "conservative". Little did he know that I am very socially liberal and hate the government stepping in where it's not needed or wanted.

He found that just so amazingly surprising coming from a fiscal conservative who also fights for some government operations (like the Fed). Now I see him every time I am in town and have dinner with him. He was the #1 gift giver in our wedding and always asks how my wife is doing. Awesome guy, a true friend I'll always keep on the Christmas card list.

Anyway, enough tangents.

Yes, you'll find me far more complex and agreeable than you might think.
Socially liberal, Fiscally Responsible, why is this combo so rare? Props, I rarely find myself reading a post of yours that I'm not in sincere agreement with.
You can add me to the "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative club"... ;)
A real fiscal conservative would have never supported the invasion of Iraq, and would want us out of there.
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon


Wow, as long as we don't talk about economics I can see us agreeing on alot. :thumbsup:
Which is why I absolutely get pissed off when somebody pigeonholes me. My thinking is far more diverse than people believe.

One funny anecdote. I worked with a guy for 2 years, I always had suspicion he was gay, but never really knew. His significant other was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and he finally had to "out" himself so that he could ask for help during periods of time when he had to help his SO. He later said he never told me because he thought I would hold it against him, since I was so "conservative". Little did he know that I am very socially liberal and hate the government stepping in where it's not needed or wanted.

He found that just so amazingly surprising coming from a fiscal conservative who also fights for some government operations (like the Fed). Now I see him every time I am in town and have dinner with him. He was the #1 gift giver in our wedding and always asks how my wife is doing. Awesome guy, a true friend I'll always keep on the Christmas card list.

Anyway, enough tangents.

Yes, you'll find me far more complex and agreeable than you might think.
Socially liberal, Fiscally Responsible, why is this combo so rare? Props, I rarely find myself reading a post of yours that I'm not in sincere agreement with.
You can add me to the "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative club"... ;)
What party does that put in? I'm thinking by summer time it might be the Republican party.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,576
431
126
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: palehorse74
You can add me to the "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative club"... ;)
What party does that put in? I'm thinking by summer time it might be the Republican party.
Still planning the Ron Paul surprise attack at the convention? You know you're living in fantasy with that stuff, right?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,576
431
126
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Yes yllus, fantasy indeed. There is nothing happening like that in my state, please move along. There's nothing to see here. Things like this aren't happening in places like Minnesota.

http://wrightrepublican.blogsp...ore-big-in-wright.html
Haha, brilliant. Don't make the assumption I don't want you to continue - if it isn't just a figment of imagination from a couple of screwballs, this would be one of the most amusing things to ever witness happening in politics. :)

By the way, if the aforementioned does happen, I'm sure the Republican Party and Americans at large will take the news of this stolen nomination in good cheer. This won't backfire in your faces at all.
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
yllus for it's more about changing the party, than it is about getting Ron Paul elected. Which is what you implied anyway.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Yes yllus, fantasy indeed. There is nothing happening like that in my state, please move along. There's nothing to see here. Things like this aren't happening in places like Minnesota.

http://wrightrepublican.blogsp...ore-big-in-wright.html

BWAHAHAHAHHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA


AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA



You have got to be fricking kidding me! I am from Minnesota and I hadn't even heard fo the town, so I went to take a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...lton_County,_Minnesota


WOW, 93 people! AMAZING THAT CORRELATION WOULD BE HIGH!


Here's the map for those who want a good laugh.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=...a&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title

Cloquet, the nearest even "large" town isn't that large. Duluth (great skiing an hour away at Lutsen), is the largest city in Northern Minnesota and it's decent in size.

But seriously dude, you need to get a fricking grip.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre

A real fiscal conservative would have never supported the invasion of Iraq, and would want us out of there.
A rational fiscal conservative woudl also weigh the advantages and disadvantages of that decision and realize the long-term cost of it might be far higher.

Sticking to one aspect of a political spectrum just to stick to it, without consideration of ramifications, is stupid.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,406
733
126
Ask yourself why al-Qaeda, in the face of the most powerful military in the world, has been able to survive and expand? Is our military and our tactics really that incompetent...
probably because they studied Viet Cong tactics from the Vietnam war??? or was the US Military just as incompotent back then???

I would imagine that fighting a war 'with the gloves on' against guerilla tactics would be a major bitch...

 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Yes yllus, fantasy indeed. There is nothing happening like that in my state, please move along. There's nothing to see here. Things like this aren't happening in places like Minnesota.

http://wrightrepublican.blogsp...ore-big-in-wright.html

BWAHAHAHAHHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA


AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA


AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA



You have got to be fricking kidding me! I am from Minnesota and I hadn't even heard fo the town, so I went to take a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...lton_County,_Minnesota


WOW, 93 people! AMAZING THAT CORRELATION WOULD BE HIGH!


Here's the map for those who want a good laugh.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=...a&sa=X&oi=map&ct=title

Cloquet, the nearest even "large" town isn't that large. Duluth (great skiing an hour away at Lutsen), is the largest city in Northern Minnesota and it's decent in size.

But seriously dude, you need to get a fricking grip.
Uh you might want to edit your post a little as you have totally made yourself look like a complete dumbass. The Paul Supporters have taken over Wright County, not Wright City. Counties usually encompass many cities, it's a wonder why some find your posts intelligent.

Wright County

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_County%2C_Minnesota

Each county has conventions, Wright happened to be one of the 1st to hold it's conventions. I don't doubt that many more Paul supporters will take other counties as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 40-50% Paul supporters at the state convention. Oh well even if you edit your post I still have it here for all posterity.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon


Wow, as long as we don't talk about economics I can see us agreeing on alot. :thumbsup:
Which is why I absolutely get pissed off when somebody pigeonholes me. My thinking is far more diverse than people believe.

One funny anecdote. I worked with a guy for 2 years, I always had suspicion he was gay, but never really knew. His significant other was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and he finally had to "out" himself so that he could ask for help during periods of time when he had to help his SO. He later said he never told me because he thought I would hold it against him, since I was so "conservative". Little did he know that I am very socially liberal and hate the government stepping in where it's not needed or wanted.

He found that just so amazingly surprising coming from a fiscal conservative who also fights for some government operations (like the Fed). Now I see him every time I am in town and have dinner with him. He was the #1 gift giver in our wedding and always asks how my wife is doing. Awesome guy, a true friend I'll always keep on the Christmas card list.

Anyway, enough tangents.

Yes, you'll find me far more complex and agreeable than you might think.
Socially liberal, Fiscally Responsible, why is this combo so rare? Props, I rarely find myself reading a post of yours that I'm not in sincere agreement with.
You can add me to the "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative club"... ;)
What?!?!?! There is no such thing. Only Republican or Democrat!
LOL!
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: jpeyton
How many wars did we start after the Oklahoma City bombing?
The OKC bombing was part of an ongoing culture war. A war that is still waging. The .gov burned 80 people alive, so the people blew up 168 .gov workers.

Heavy-handedness will always bring about insurrection. In Iraq, and here in America.

But not in England. :p
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon


Wow, as long as we don't talk about economics I can see us agreeing on alot. :thumbsup:
Which is why I absolutely get pissed off when somebody pigeonholes me. My thinking is far more diverse than people believe.

One funny anecdote. I worked with a guy for 2 years, I always had suspicion he was gay, but never really knew. His significant other was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and he finally had to "out" himself so that he could ask for help during periods of time when he had to help his SO. He later said he never told me because he thought I would hold it against him, since I was so "conservative". Little did he know that I am very socially liberal and hate the government stepping in where it's not needed or wanted.

He found that just so amazingly surprising coming from a fiscal conservative who also fights for some government operations (like the Fed). Now I see him every time I am in town and have dinner with him. He was the #1 gift giver in our wedding and always asks how my wife is doing. Awesome guy, a true friend I'll always keep on the Christmas card list.

Anyway, enough tangents.

Yes, you'll find me far more complex and agreeable than you might think.
Socially liberal, Fiscally Responsible, why is this combo so rare? Props, I rarely find myself reading a post of yours that I'm not in sincere agreement with.
You can add me to the "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative club"... ;)
What party does that put in? I'm thinking by summer time it might be the Republican party.
Unlike most, I have learned to live my life indpendent of the collective ideologies of any one group or party. It is very unlikely that I will ever join a political party, church, or any other ideological group.
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
I agree with you there Palehorse, I really do. If anything I can probably most identify myself as "Libertarian", although I won't "join" any party as I feel no need for ideologies.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
This documentary is old, but if you watch it and previously thought that Ron Paul was crazy, you may not think so afterward. I've seen it months ago.
Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary. Please don't associate him with this.
No, Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary, but he does talk a lot about the rise of the "Neoconservative" and their movement. He also has said that the war on terror is a sham, you can't have a war on a tactic.

I'd say it's safe to say Ron Paul believes in much of what they have discovered in this movie.
Millions agree with this movie - by singling out Ron Paul, it implies it's somehow a fringe movie with a small following. Why mention him?
 

Mavtek3100

Senior member
Jan 15, 2008
524
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
This documentary is old, but if you watch it and previously thought that Ron Paul was crazy, you may not think so afterward. I've seen it months ago.
Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary. Please don't associate him with this.
No, Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary, but he does talk a lot about the rise of the "Neoconservative" and their movement. He also has said that the war on terror is a sham, you can't have a war on a tactic.

I'd say it's safe to say Ron Paul believes in much of what they have discovered in this movie.
Millions agree with this movie - by singling out Ron Paul, it implies it's somehow a fringe movie with a small following. Why mention him?
Huhm maybe because he's the only presidential candidate who has talked about both the fabrication of a "war on terror" or the Neoconservative movement. John Edwards talked about Neocons to an extent, but he didn't get the notion that you can't have a war on a tactic.

Why do you consider Ron Paul's ideas "fringe"?
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Originally posted by: Tab
Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
This documentary is old, but if you watch it and previously thought that Ron Paul was crazy, you may not think so afterward. I've seen it months ago.
Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary. Please don't associate him with this.
No, Ron Paul has nothing to do with this documentary, but he does talk a lot about the rise of the "Neoconservative" and their movement. He also has said that the war on terror is a sham, you can't have a war on a tactic.

I'd say it's safe to say Ron Paul believes in much of what they have discovered in this movie.
Millions agree with this movie - by singling out Ron Paul, it implies it's somehow a fringe movie with a small following. Why mention him?
Huhm maybe because he's the only presidential candidate who has talked about both the fabrication of a "war on terror" or the Neoconservative movement. John Edwards talked about Neocons to an extent, but he didn't get the notion that you can't have a war on a tactic.

Why do you consider Ron Paul's ideas "fringe"?
Because they are.
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
repost to palehorse since he missed it again-

palehorse- well state your position then in regards to Mahmoud Ahmad on this thread.

please explain why this very important person would say that AQ was a database. Robert Finlayson Cook (28 February 1946 ? 6 August 2005) was a politician in the British Labour Party. He was known as Robin Cook. He was Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs of the United Kingdom from 1997 to 2001. He resigned from his post as Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council on 17 March 2003 in protest against the 2003 invasion of Iraq. At the time of his death he was president of the Foreign Policy Centre and a vice-president of the America All Party Parliamentary Group and the Global Security and Non-Proliferation All Party Parliamentary Group. He got a standing ovation for his speech.


Cook described Al-Qaida as a product of a western miscalculation, in a 2005 newspaper column:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."[13]
 

event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: event8horizon
palehorse- well state your position then in regards to Mahmoud Ahmad on this thread.

please explain why this very important person would say that AQ was a database. Robert Finlayson Cook (28 February 1946 ? 6 August 2005) was a politician in the British Labour Party. He was known as Robin Cook. He was Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs of the United Kingdom from 1997 to 2001. He resigned from his post as Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council on 17 March 2003 in protest against the 2003 invasion of Iraq. At the time of his death he was president of the Foreign Policy Centre and a vice-president of the America All Party Parliamentary Group and the Global Security and Non-Proliferation All Party Parliamentary Group. He got a standing ovation for his speech.


Cook described Al-Qaida as a product of a western miscalculation, in a 2005 newspaper column:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."[13]
You have to search beyond that which merely confirms what you want to believe:

Bin Laden himself has repeatedly denied that he received any American support. ?Personally neither I nor my brothers saw any evidence of American help,? bin Laden told British journalist Robert Fisk in 1993. In 1996, Mr. Fisk interviewed bin Laden again. The arch-terrorist was equally adamant: ?We were never, at any time, friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans supported the Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.?

man, that journalist u referred me to, fisk, is starting to ask interesting questions about 9-11. im starting to like the guy!!
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...-about-911-462904.html
Robert Fisk: Even I question the 'truth' about 9/11

But ? here we go. I am increasingly troubled at the inconsistencies in the official narrative of 9/11. It's not just the obvious non sequiturs: where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon? Why have the officials involved in the United 93 flight (which crashed in Pennsylvania) been muzzled? Why did flight 93's debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field? Again, I'm not talking about the crazed "research" of David Icke's Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster ? which should send any sane man back to reading the telephone directory.

I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers ? whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C ? would snap through at the same time? (They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds.) What about the third tower ? the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) ? which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September? Why did it so neatly fall to the ground when no aircraft had hit it? The American National Institute of Standards and Technology was instructed to analyse the cause of the destruction of all three buildings. They have not yet reported on WTC 7. Two prominent American professors of mechanical engineering ? very definitely not in the "raver" bracket ? are now legally challenging the terms of reference of this final report on the grounds that it could be "fraudulent or deceptive".

Journalistically, there were many odd things about 9/11. Initial reports of reporters that they heard "explosions" in the towers ? which could well have been the beams cracking ? are easy to dismiss. Less so the report that the body of a female air crew member was found in a Manhattan street with her hands bound. OK, so let's claim that was just hearsay reporting at the time, just as the CIA's list of Arab suicide-hijackers, which included three men who were ? and still are ? very much alive and living in the Middle East, was an initial intelligence error.

But what about the weird letter allegedly written by Mohamed Atta, the Egyptian hijacker-murderer with the spooky face, whose "Islamic" advice to his gruesome comrades ? released by the CIA ? mystified every Muslim friend I know in the Middle East? Atta mentioned his family ? which no Muslim, however ill-taught, would be likely to include in such a prayer. He reminds his comrades-in-murder to say the first Muslim prayer of the day and then goes on to quote from it. But no Muslim would need such a reminder ? let alone expect the text of the "Fajr" prayer to be included in Atta's letter.

Let me repeat. I am not a conspiracy theorist. Spare me the ravers. Spare me the plots. But like everyone else, I would like to know the full story of 9/11, not least because it was the trigger for the whole lunatic, meretricious "war on terror" which has led us to disaster in Iraq and Afghanistan and in much of the Middle East. Bush's happily departed adviser Karl Rove once said that "we're an empire now ? we create our own reality". True? At least tell us. It would stop people kicking over chairs.



 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: event8horizon
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: event8horizon
palehorse- well state your position then in regards to Mahmoud Ahmad on this thread.

please explain why this very important person would say that AQ was a database. Robert Finlayson Cook (28 February 1946 ? 6 August 2005) was a politician in the British Labour Party. He was known as Robin Cook. He was Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs of the United Kingdom from 1997 to 2001. He resigned from his post as Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council on 17 March 2003 in protest against the 2003 invasion of Iraq. At the time of his death he was president of the Foreign Policy Centre and a vice-president of the America All Party Parliamentary Group and the Global Security and Non-Proliferation All Party Parliamentary Group. He got a standing ovation for his speech.


Cook described Al-Qaida as a product of a western miscalculation, in a 2005 newspaper column:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."[13]
You have to search beyond that which merely confirms what you want to believe:

Bin Laden himself has repeatedly denied that he received any American support. ?Personally neither I nor my brothers saw any evidence of American help,? bin Laden told British journalist Robert Fisk in 1993. In 1996, Mr. Fisk interviewed bin Laden again. The arch-terrorist was equally adamant: ?We were never, at any time, friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans supported the Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.?

man, that journalist u referred me to, fisk, is starting to ask interesting questions about 9-11. im starting to like the guy!!
http://www.independent.co.uk/n...-about-911-462904.html
Robert Fisk: Even I question the 'truth' about 9/11

But ? here we go. I am increasingly troubled at the inconsistencies in the official narrative of 9/11. It's not just the obvious non sequiturs: where are the aircraft parts (engines, etc) from the attack on the Pentagon? Why have the officials involved in the United 93 flight (which crashed in Pennsylvania) been muzzled? Why did flight 93's debris spread over miles when it was supposed to have crashed in one piece in a field? Again, I'm not talking about the crazed "research" of David Icke's Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster ? which should send any sane man back to reading the telephone directory.

I am talking about scientific issues. If it is true, for example, that kerosene burns at 820C under optimum conditions, how come the steel beams of the twin towers ? whose melting point is supposed to be about 1,480C ? would snap through at the same time? (They collapsed in 8.1 and 10 seconds.) What about the third tower ? the so-called World Trade Centre Building 7 (or the Salmon Brothers Building) ? which collapsed in 6.6 seconds in its own footprint at 5.20pm on 11 September? Why did it so neatly fall to the ground when no aircraft had hit it? The American National Institute of Standards and Technology was instructed to analyse the cause of the destruction of all three buildings. They have not yet reported on WTC 7. Two prominent American professors of mechanical engineering ? very definitely not in the "raver" bracket ? are now legally challenging the terms of reference of this final report on the grounds that it could be "fraudulent or deceptive".

Journalistically, there were many odd things about 9/11. Initial reports of reporters that they heard "explosions" in the towers ? which could well have been the beams cracking ? are easy to dismiss. Less so the report that the body of a female air crew member was found in a Manhattan street with her hands bound. OK, so let's claim that was just hearsay reporting at the time, just as the CIA's list of Arab suicide-hijackers, which included three men who were ? and still are ? very much alive and living in the Middle East, was an initial intelligence error.

But what about the weird letter allegedly written by Mohamed Atta, the Egyptian hijacker-murderer with the spooky face, whose "Islamic" advice to his gruesome comrades ? released by the CIA ? mystified every Muslim friend I know in the Middle East? Atta mentioned his family ? which no Muslim, however ill-taught, would be likely to include in such a prayer. He reminds his comrades-in-murder to say the first Muslim prayer of the day and then goes on to quote from it. But no Muslim would need such a reminder ? let alone expect the text of the "Fajr" prayer to be included in Atta's letter.

Let me repeat. I am not a conspiracy theorist. Spare me the ravers. Spare me the plots. But like everyone else, I would like to know the full story of 9/11, not least because it was the trigger for the whole lunatic, meretricious "war on terror" which has led us to disaster in Iraq and Afghanistan and in much of the Middle East. Bush's happily departed adviser Karl Rove once said that "we're an empire now ? we create our own reality". True? At least tell us. It would stop people kicking over chairs.
Please stop trying to swing this discussion to 9/11 loonyism.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS