Battery question..

[LTC8K6]

Frankly, I doubt I'd ever desulfate a battery anyway. I'd exchange it for a fresh one.

I've seen examples of desulfators successfully recovering a battery, taking up to three weeks to do so.

I've seen claims of batteries lasting 10 years.

Well, I stop trusting a car battery at about 5-6 years, and get a fresh one anyway, even if it still seems to be okay.

If my battery needed to be desulfated for a week to come back from the dead, I wouldn't trust it anyway, so what's the point?

I would have the same attitude about all lead acid batteries. I would be getting fresh ones before they fail on me.

Perhaps if the world went to hell, and I had to make a battery last 12 years, or I had to recover a sulfated battery...

As long as life is still good, I just can't get interested in desulfators for my batteries.

 

[tortillasoup]

How about you let me answer instead of making up your own (wildly incorrect) answer?

It's because I'm generalizing over dozens of different vehicles from small motorcycles with 14 amp-hour batteries to large V8 American land yachts with 10 times that capacity. Hell, there are a couple of boats in there using marine deep cycle batteries as well.

The usage patterns between vehicles differ wildly, as do realistically available storage options.

You suggested that batteries would not last for more than 3 years unless you used a temperature compensated charger. That's complete bullshit. Millions of people are getting much longer lifespans than that with simple float chargers. You are vastly over-stating the importance of temperature compensation in normal float-charger usage patterns.

Well as you've correctly pointed out, usage patterns, battery type and battery sizes are quite important in determining the expected life span of a Lead Acid battery. What I'm saying, is that if OP drives a car down the road and gets the engine reasonably warmed up, then tries to charge the battery at a voltage that is higher than he's suppose to use for a given charge level and battery temperature, he will damage the plates. The extent of this damage will obviously vary greatly and the more he does it, the more damage he will do... Obviously, OP would then have to weigh the risks of sulfation due to insufficient charge or risk of corrosion of the Positive plate. As you know, every situation has a least worse scenario and in OP's case, if OP ONLY had a piece of crap battery tender, I'd suggest that he use the tender for only a limited amount of time and not to leave it plugged in over night, every night. I would also recommend he not use the battery tender on a hot or even warm car but to pop the hood and let all of the heat evacuate the engine bay before using that charger.

Because the real-world benefit in the usage scenario that the OP is positing does not in any way resemble the sort of industrial scenarios where the batteries are at elevated temperatures for months or even years at a time due to proximity to continuously operating heat sources.


The battery will be warm after driving, yes. But it doesn't remain warm indefinitely. At most, it will retain meaningful warmth for an hour or two, which is simply not enough time for there to be any meaningful decrease in life expectancy from a non-temperature-compensated device.

Anything done frequently enough over a long period of time absolutely would have an effect, however brief. Also the effects of charging with too high of a voltage for a given temperature done for a few hours a day and done for one week in a row is definitely capable of killing what was otherwise a decent battery. It's actually this specific reason why a lot of cars don't have a charging voltage much above 14v even though it takes a voltage of 14.7v in order for a battery to reach its complete saturation charge. It's just too difficult in a hot engine bay to manage accurate temperature compensation, or at least too difficult for the amount of money the automaker wants to spend on it. Seriously, you just have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Here is a question, why suggest a float charger and not just a cheap ass battery tender? I mean after all, "it's only for a few hours"... I can easily make the argument for just buying the cheapest piece of shit on the market and just take your lines and throw them back right at you.

This is absolutely hilarious. Are you sure you're not related to Fleabag somehow?

If you have motorcycle batteries lasting 10 years with your abuse scenarios, then 20 years shouldn't be out of the question. Obviously, as you've said and are correct about, how a battery is used and its reserve capacity are a big determinant into how long it's going to last. A group 24 battery used in a corolla probably is going to last longer than a group 51, though maybe not and could in fact burn out the alternator if you leave that battery to discharge over too long of a period of time.

I have no doubt that it's a good charger. But the practical effect of it as compared to the Battery Tender is not going to be a meaningful increase in battery life.

There is a difference between "better" and "meaningfully better."

I chose motorcycle batteries as an example because they are an extreme case. They are chosen with much less reserve than automotive batteries, they are subject to vastly more vibration, and, on many bikes, they sit directly behind an air-cooled engine which causes them to get much more heat than the typical car battery. On top of that, motorcycle charging systems are much weaker than cars and are often so bad at idle that switching on the turn signal makes the headlight dim in time with the signal's flashing.

These are batteries that, without any charger at all, typically fail within 2-3 years. In the days before float chargers were common, it was not at all uncommon for people to just buy a new battery every year. Using simple, non-temperature-compensated float chargers easily doubled that life expectancy. Clearly, the simple chargers aren't "cooking" the batteries.

So you're assuming that you aren't cooking or sulfating a battery just because you've found a positive use for a NON-desulfating, NON-temperature compensating battery charger? I'm not saying your charger is useless, what I'm saying is that there are scenarios where that charger can actually kill your battery rather quickly like if it's 90f outside and decide to use a Battery Tender Jr. on it for a few hours at a time, every day for a week. If it doesn't kill the battery like this in a weeks time, then what you probably did was take away a 1yr+ of its life away and you wouldn't know it unless you used a battery analyzer.

Remember, there are two scenarios at hand (hopefully), you've either got a battery that is getting sulfated due to insufficient charge or you've got a battery that is experiencing grid corrosion. Yes, it's entirely possible to use one of your chargers and not experience grid corrosion, like in the example of charging a cold battery in a cold room which in that case will lead to sulfation. This leads to a certain degree of sulfation because the battery isn't at maximum saturation which is the whole purpose of float charging-- to keep the battery saturated. Too high of a voltage will corrode the plates and too low means the battery get sulfated. That Battery Tender Jr is a 4 stage battery charger since it isn't temperature compensated, when you use it on a hot battery that is 90%+ charged and is in the bulk stage, it could spend 15 minutes or so at that stage at a voltage that is far too high, corroding the battery plates.

No, it isn't. Motorcycles are simply a good example because their batteries live in far worse conditions than most automotive batteries and are, compared to automotive batteries, relatively undersized for their application. Those traits mean that problems with poor treatment or bad charging are magnified when dealing with motorcycle batteries. Problems from bad chargers are more likely to show up in noticeable ways for motorcycles than they are for cars.

FWIW, the battery in my summer/weekend use car ('86 951) sits on the same model battery tender as my motorcycle (the waterproof 800). The car's battery is currently 8 years old and still tests just fine.

There's nothing wrong with temperature compensated charges, but there's also no need to fear-monger about a lack of compensation "killing" batteries. Even a non-compensated charger will provide a significant extension in life expectancy and it's just not rational to worry about the difference.

ZV

But those are vehicles that are just being float charged, possibly parked in the shade for extended periods of time, correct? Well OP is a bit different scenario as he would like to charge the battery after driving the car and on a relatively warm day, the car's engine bay can exceed 140f for several hours after parking the vehicle. Charging with excessive voltage for a given temperature for hours at a time will kill a battery very quickly... Go head, try it yourself for a week, you'll have a dead battery come this winter.

Frankly, I doubt I'd ever desulfate a battery anyway. I'd exchange it for a fresh one.

I've seen examples of desulfators successfully recovering a battery, taking up to three weeks to do so.

I've seen claims of batteries lasting 10 years.

Well, I stop trusting a car battery at about 5-6 years, and get a fresh one anyway, even if it still seems to be okay.

If my battery needed to be desulfated for a week to come back from the dead, I wouldn't trust it anyway, so what's the point?

I would have the same attitude about all lead acid batteries. I would be getting fresh ones before they fail on me.

Perhaps if the world went to hell, and I had to make a battery last 12 years, or I had to recover a sulfated battery...

As long as life is still good, I just can't get interested in desulfators for my batteries.

Why 5 years, why not replace it every 3 years? Actually, to be on the safe side, you should just replace it every year. Your advice I think is a bit dumb, if a battery passes all of its tests and it hasn't been physically damaged in any way, I don't see any reason for premature disposal. Age is absolutely not a guarantee of any sort of reliability for a battery. Also the point about desulfating is to prevent the battery from getting to the point of needing replacement in the first place. Desulfation is more like a form of maintenance than repairs though it's certainly capable in some cases as a form of repair.






Oh ZV, straight from your beloved Deltran about temperature compensation:
http://batterytender.com/resources/frequently-asked-questions/#answer18

While a battery is being charged, it is important that the charger absorption and float, maintenance voltages closely match the recommendations of the battery manufacturer. The absorption voltage match is important for quick charging. The float, maintenance voltage match is important for long term, storage charging.

Batteries are sensitive to temperature. Recall the number of TV ads showing how tough a battery is when it can start a vehicle in sub-zero temperatures. Cold temperatures tend to reduce a battery’s ability to deliver current to a load. High temperatures not only increase a battery’s ability to deliver current to a load, but also increase a battery’s internal losses. Temperature compensation is a way to change a charger’s output voltage to maintain optimum compatibility with the battery’s charging requirements. The way it works is that the charger senses the ambient temperature. Then it increases the charge voltage when it is cold and decreases the charge voltage when it is hot. Typical values for temperature compensation for a lead acid battery are minus 0.0025 to minus 0.004 volts per degree Centigrade per 2-volt cell. For a 12-volt battery, that would be minus 0.015 volts to minus 0.024 volts per °C. The reference temperature requiring zero charge voltage compensation is 25 °C or 77 °F.

How important is temperature compensation? Like with most everything else about batteries, it depends on the application. For industrial, critical load, standby power applications, where the batteries may be connected to a live charger for a number of years, then temperature compensation can have a significant influence on battery life. In many consumer applications like SLI, deep cycle marine, etc., temperature compensation will increase long-term battery performance, but it is probably not essential in all applications. Where it is most beneficial is in helping to minimize the negative impact of a battery’s self-discharge characteristics in high temperature environments. Deltran Battery Tender Plus Battery Chargers Overcome the Negative Impact of High Temperature on Battery Performance.

The self-discharge rate of a battery is directly dependent upon the ambient temperature of the battery environment. At higher temperatures, the chemical reaction rates that determine self-discharge will also increase.

When a battery sits idle, its self-discharge characteristics will reduce its ability to deliver power on its next use. If the battery either sits long enough, or if the ambient temperature rises high enough, then the battery may become fully discharged. In fact, it is possible for the battery to be over-discharged to the point where it cannot be recovered.
The Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery chargers overcome the negative impact of higher ambient temperature and battery self-discharge in two ways. First, the Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery charger applies a safe, float, maintenance voltage level to the battery to overcome its internal losses and counteract the self-discharge phenomena. Second, the Battery Tender Plus battery charger automatically compensates the amplitude of its charge voltages for changes in ambient temperature. It reduces the amplitude of the float, maintenance voltage as the ambient temperature increases and it increases the amplitude of the charge voltages in colder temperatures. In mathematical terms, this type of compensation scheme is called a "Negative Temperature Coefficient".

The temperature compensation ratio employed by the Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery chargers is approximately minus 3.67 millivolts per battery cell per degree Centigrade of temperature rise above 25 °C. Stated another way, the output voltage of the Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery charger will drop 0.022 volts, or 22 millivolts, for every degree Centigrade temperature rise, when it is connected to a 12-volt battery.
In the event that the temperature would rise enough so that the Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery charger voltage output drops below the what would be considered a normal operating voltage for a 12 volt battery, then the Deltran Battery Tender Plus battery charger automatically disconnects itself from the battery via an internal solid state mechanism, affording an extra measure of safety in a very high temperature environment.

So yes, temperature compensation isn't necessary in all scenarios but when it is, it's really important to have it. An engine bay can stay hot for several hours especially if the ambient temperature doesn't get below 80 degrees until late in the evening. So, you over charge a battery for 8 hours after work for one week in a row and now you've effectively killed your battery. You've obviously never done this before which is possibly why ZV you defend an indefensible position.



ZV, if it makes you feel better, if I had a Battery Tender Jr. and I had some batteries I wanted to float charge, and I could keep the batteries in a temperature controlled room that matched the float charging profile of the charger, I'd have no issue using that charger. But, I'd use that charger knowing that using that charger is in lieu of using nothing at all. If the room was much too warm or I couldn't control the temperature conditions of that room at all, then I'd have to limit my use of that charger less I want to cook the battery.

 

[BUTCH1]

Well as you've correctly pointed out, usage patterns, battery type and battery sizes are quite important in determining the expected life span of a Lead Acid battery. What I'm saying, is that if OP drives a car down the road and gets the engine reasonably warmed up, then tries to charge the battery at a voltage that is higher than he's suppose to use for a given charge level and battery temperature, he will damage the plates. The extent of this damage will obviously vary greatly and the more he does it, the more damage he will do... Obviously, OP would then have to weigh the risks of sulfation due to insufficient charge or risk of corrosion of the Positive plate. As you know, every situation has a least worse scenario and in OP's case, if OP ONLY had a piece of crap battery tender, I'd suggest that he use the tender for only a limited amount of time and not to leave it plugged in over night, every night. I would also recommend he not use the battery tender on a hot or even warm car but to pop the hood and let all of the heat evacuate the engine bay before using that charger.




Anything done frequently enough over a long period of time absolutely would have an effect, however brief. Also the effects of charging with too high of a voltage for a given temperature done for a few hours a day and done for one week in a row is definitely capable of killing what was otherwise a decent battery. It's actually this specific reason why a lot of cars don't have a charging voltage much above 14v even though it takes a voltage of 14.7v in order for a battery to reach its complete saturation charge. It's just too difficult in a hot engine bay to manage accurate temperature compensation, or at least too difficult for the amount of money the automaker wants to spend on it. Seriously, you just have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Here is a question, why suggest a float charger and not just a cheap ass battery tender? I mean after all, "it's only for a few hours"... I can easily make the argument for just buying the cheapest piece of shit on the market and just take your lines and throw them back right at you.



If you have motorcycle batteries lasting 10 years with your abuse scenarios, then 20 years shouldn't be out of the question. Obviously, as you've said and are correct about, how a battery is used and its reserve capacity are a big determinant into how long it's going to last. A group 24 battery used in a corolla probably is going to last longer than a group 51, though maybe not and could in fact burn out the alternator if you leave that battery to discharge over too long of a period of time.


So you're assuming that you aren't cooking or sulfating a battery just because you've found a positive use for a NON-desulfating, NON-temperature compensating battery charger? I'm not saying your charger is useless, what I'm saying is that there are scenarios where that charger can actually kill your battery rather quickly like if it's 90f outside and decide to use a Battery Tender Jr. on it for a few hours at a time, every day for a week. If it doesn't kill the battery like this in a weeks time, then what you probably did was take away a 1yr+ of its life away and you wouldn't know it unless you used a battery analyzer.

Remember, there are two scenarios at hand (hopefully), you've either got a battery that is getting sulfated due to insufficient charge or you've got a battery that is experiencing grid corrosion. Yes, it's entirely possible to use one of your chargers and not experience grid corrosion, like in the example of charging a cold battery in a cold room which in that case will lead to sulfation. This leads to a certain degree of sulfation because the battery isn't at maximum saturation which is the whole purpose of float charging-- to keep the battery saturated. Too high of a voltage will corrode the plates and too low means the battery get sulfated. That Battery Tender Jr is a 4 stage battery charger since it isn't temperature compensated, when you use it on a hot battery that is 90%+ charged and is in the bulk stage, it could spend 15 minutes or so at that stage at a voltage that is far too high, corroding the battery plates.


But those are vehicles that are just being float charged, possibly parked in the shade for extended periods of time, correct? Well OP is a bit different scenario as he would like to charge the battery after driving the car and on a relatively warm day, the car's engine bay can exceed 140f for several hours after parking the vehicle. Charging with excessive voltage for a given temperature for hours at a time will kill a battery very quickly... Go head, try it yourself for a week, you'll have a dead battery come this winter.



Why 5 years, why not replace it every 3 years? Actually, to be on the safe side, you should just replace it every year. Your advice I think is a bit dumb, if a battery passes all of its tests and it hasn't been physically damaged in any way, I don't see any reason for premature disposal. Age is absolutely not a guarantee of any sort of reliability for a battery. Also the point about desulfating is to prevent the battery from getting to the point of needing replacement in the first place. Desulfation is more like a form of maintenance than repairs though it's certainly capable in some cases as a form of repair.






Oh ZV, straight from your beloved Deltran about temperature compensation:
http://batterytender.com/resources/frequently-asked-questions/#answer18



So yes, temperature compensation isn't necessary in all scenarios but when it is, it's really important to have it. An engine bay can stay hot for several hours especially if the ambient temperature doesn't get below 80 degrees until late in the evening. So, you over charge a battery for 8 hours after work for one week in a row and now you've effectively killed your battery. You've obviously never done this before which is possibly why ZV you defend an indefensible position.



ZV, if it makes you feel better, if I had a Battery Tender Jr. and I had some batteries I wanted to float charge, and I could keep the batteries in a temperature controlled room that matched the float charging profile of the charger, I'd have no issue using that charger. But, I'd use that charger knowing that using that charger is in lieu of using nothing at all. If the room was much too warm or I couldn't control the temperature conditions of that room at all, then I'd have to limit my use of that charger less I want to cook the battery.

Well I do live in FL so the heat factor is higher than normal but Wacky Dan has the exact same car as mine and also experienced extremely short battery lifespan, ASAIK he doesn't live in a high ambient temp area either. I think my plan is to use the trickle charger (with float a capability) for 4-5 hours every 2nd day, these cars are tough on batteries and my 2.2 mile commute to work is probably exacerbating that situation, then in the summer months I'm running max AC which adds the pull of 3 large electric fans on the alternator and in 2.2mi probably doesn't give it a chance to top off the battery that a longer drive would allow. Throw in the damm "afterblow" for another nail in the coffin, we're finally past the AC season here, I'm planning to have the dealer switch this function off before next season starts, if I want to dry my evap core I'll just shut off the compressor and run the blower for a few minutes with the vehicle still running. Thanks for all the help/suggestions to everyone who posted, much appreciated..

 

[jlee]

With all this effort spent in recharging $80 batteries, I sure hope tortillasoup is using bypass filtration for his engine oil to avoid premature engine failure.

 

[BUTCH1]

With all this effort spent in recharging $80 batteries, I sure hope tortillasoup is using bypass filtration for his engine oil to avoid premature engine failure.

Hey!, that battery cost me $91 Bub!.. anyway, what is this "bypass filtration" you speak of?.

 

[jlee]

Hey!, that battery cost me $91 Bub!.. anyway, what is this "bypass filtration" you speak of?.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration.php

 

[BUTCH1]

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration.php

Huh, that actually makes sense and since Blackstone isn't hawking adapters their opinion does carry some weight, IDK what it would cost to install one and if it's really worth it.

 

[jlee]

Huh, that actually makes sense and since Blackstone isn't hawking adapters their opinion does carry some weight, IDK what it would cost to install one and if it's really worth it.

A few hundred bucks. I find it similar to the battery discussion going on here - while it may be better theoretically, for the vast majority of normal users it's wholly unnecessary.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/filters-and-by-pass-systems/by-pass/filters-and-mounts/

 

[tortillasoup]

Well I do live in FL so the heat factor is higher than normal but Wacky Dan has the exact same car as mine and also experienced extremely short battery lifespan, ASAIK he doesn't live in a high ambient temp area either. I think my plan is to use the trickle charger (with float a capability) for 4-5 hours every 2nd day, these cars are tough on batteries and my 2.2 mile commute to work is probably exacerbating that situation, then in the summer months I'm running max AC which adds the pull of 3 large electric fans on the alternator and in 2.2mi probably doesn't give it a chance to top off the battery that a longer drive would allow. Throw in the damm "afterblow" for another nail in the coffin, we're finally past the AC season here, I'm planning to have the dealer switch this function off before next season starts, if I want to dry my evap core I'll just shut off the compressor and run the blower for a few minutes with the vehicle still running. Thanks for all the help/suggestions to everyone who posted, much appreciated..

You'll kill the battery if you try to float charge it in florida weather as the car's engine bay will not cool down for several hours. The Batteryminder 1500 isn't all that expensive and you can get a probe that goes directly on the battery so that it measures the battery's actual temperature. Use quick disconnect harness and you'll be good to go.


Most people who use trickle chargers use them like ZV uses them, on moderate/cold temperature batteries in a shaded/enclosed area. In that scenario, the risk is more likely to be a bit of sulfation rather than plate corrosion especially on a Battery Tender... now a POS trickle charger, that could easily corrode the plates as ZV mentioned since it's just constant current.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration.php

dude.... hory shit! Might it may not be worth it for a car that takes 4 quarts but if you've got a diesel truck with a 7+ liter engine that takes like I think 15 quarts, that's totally worth it! Thanks!

 

[PhoKingGuy]

FWIW when I lived in Tampa my BMW's battery died in 2.5ish years. Dealer said it was a normal occurrence for Florida.

 

[tortillasoup]

FWIW when I lived in Tampa my BMW's battery died in 2.5ish years. Dealer said it was a normal occurrence for Florida.

Where was the battery mounted, in the engine bay or in the trunk?

 

[maluckey]

fact - I Lived in South Texas for 5 years. Left my battery plugged in to BT Junior because I used a lawn tractor battery to save weight....Lasted 6 years. What does this mean? Nothing...just though that since everyone is using anecdotes that I would too!!!

Fact- many modern cars (even lowly dodge Neons) charge based on temperature near the battery.

Fact - desulfunation charger companies have no independent lab tests backing their claims. despite all the hoooplah...they're simply charging a battery. Imagine that! A charger charging batteries to prevent them from dying! WOW!!

Fact - If these Desulfator chargers worked better, why are there not tests showing this? Could it be that ANY charger that senses voltage and charges based on float voltage algorhythms will work fine? That's my guess...but I don't care enough to buy another charger for likely zero gain.

Fact - there are dozens of studies on proper charging algorhythms to extend battery life, and all are easy to find on the intarwebs.

Fact - pretty much every one of the mini-float chargers uses a similar strategy, as evidenced by their own literature. The differences are the desulfonators...who have no proof of anything other than their product is a good battery charger.....


Just a few facts to the argument......

 

[tortillasoup]

fact - I Lived in South Texas for 5 years. Left my battery plugged in to BT Junior because I used a lawn tractor battery to save weight....Lasted 6 years. What does this mean? Nothing...just though that since everyone is using anecdotes that I would too!!!

Thanks for the anecdote! No seriously, more info like this is good. Proves the point that keeping a battery topped will extend its life even in a car.

Fact- many modern cars (even lowly dodge Neons) charge based on temperature near the battery.

Can you show me a car or two you absolutely know for certain has a temperature probe right next to the battery? Every car I've seen or worked on had a some sort of thermister or something of the sort in the alternator that basically used its internal temperature to determine whether to drop the charging voltage or not. I'm not familiar (though it may exist) with any vehicles that actually have a temperature compensation circuit that has a temperature vs. voltage table and there is an actual temperature probe at the battery to measure this temperature.

Fact - desulfunation charger companies have no independent lab tests backing their claims. despite all the hoooplah...they're simply charging a battery. Imagine that! A charger charging batteries to prevent them from dying! WOW!!

Who is going to fund this independent lab tests??? What's the incentive? I can tell you with first hand experience that these devices can work but they're not miracle workers. If a battery already has a bad cell, there is no recovering it. Also if a battery's plates have been warped, cracked, corroded due to heat/overcharging, also no fixing it either.

Fact - If these Desulfator chargers worked better, why are there not tests showing this? Could it be that ANY charger that senses voltage and charges based on float voltage algorhythms will work fine? That's my guess...but I don't care enough to buy another charger for likely zero gain.

They do charge fine, but desulfators work better and they're actually built on top of multistage chargers anyhow...

Fact - there are dozens of studies on proper charging algorhythms to extend battery life, and all are easy to find on the intarwebs.

Yes and the battery minder employs all of them, not sure your point.

Fact - pretty much every one of the mini-float chargers uses a similar strategy, as evidenced by their own literature. The differences are the desulfonators...who have no proof of anything other than their product is a good battery charger.....

Older, cheaper, crappier chargers will have fewer or even no stages at all. This is what ZV argued for earlier in the thread, not to get the biggest POS charger on the market because it will definitely cook the battery quick, and he's right. But what I was arguing was that while the Battery Tender Jr. is a superior charger to all of the constant current chargers that are still on the market, there is room for improvement and that is with the Battery Minder 1500 and other like chargers. (The Battery Minder 12248 is still their best charger however)

 

[BUTCH1]

fact - I Lived in South Texas for 5 years. Left my battery plugged in to BT Junior because I used a lawn tractor battery to save weight....Lasted 6 years. What does this mean? Nothing...just though that since everyone is using anecdotes that I would too!!!

Fact- many modern cars (even lowly dodge Neons) charge based on temperature near the battery.

Fact - desulfunation charger companies have no independent lab tests backing their claims. despite all the hoooplah...they're simply charging a battery. Imagine that! A charger charging batteries to prevent them from dying! WOW!!

Fact - If these Desulfator chargers worked better, why are there not tests showing this? Could it be that ANY charger that senses voltage and charges based on float voltage algorhythms will work fine? That's my guess...but I don't care enough to buy another charger for likely zero gain.

Fact - there are dozens of studies on proper charging algorhythms to extend battery life, and all are easy to find on the intarwebs.

Fact - pretty much every one of the mini-float chargers uses a similar strategy, as evidenced by their own literature. The differences are the desulfonators...who have no proof of anything other than their product is a good battery charger.....


Just a few facts to the argument......

Hmm, I didn't see or never heard of any "temperature sensor" in my car, AFAIK the alternator puts out 13.8-14.1V at all times, (may vary with RPM). There is nothing in my Hayne's or owners manual to suggest that battery charging only occurs under certain temperature conditions.

 

[tortillasoup]

Hmm, I didn't see or never heard of any "temperature sensor" in my car, AFAIK the alternator puts out 13.8-14.1V at all times, (may vary with RPM). There is nothing in my Hayne's or owners manual to suggest that battery charging only occurs under certain temperature conditions.

One way to check is to check the voltage on cold start and then check the voltage again after a long, city drive where the engine bay gets quite hot, see if there is a voltage drop. Entirely possible the voltage doesn't drop on your car and that's by design. The voltage may also not move too much if your battery is very discharged due to your driving habits.

 

[maluckey]

For those that don't work on cars much...I specifically said Dodge Neon for the temperature sensor..... It's in the battery tray. Dodge SRT-4 also had them in almost all the model years, as did the PT Cruisers, many years of Dodge Rams, Chrysler Sebring and Jeep Cherokees. Many Hondas - I know the Oddysey does and the Toyota Prius also has them.

Lack of general automotive knowledge by automotive battery experts doesn't give me much faith. I certainly hope it's because there was time well spent in schools..

My point in the earlier post is that everyone makes too much out of nothing. Most all reputable float chargers are for the most part equivalent, and likely made in the same Chinese Foxconn factories that make I-Phones. All of them charge batteries and virtually none of them is known to blow them up.

these desulfultation chargers have no tests to back their claims, and most everything out there points to snake oil, much like open air filters and 100 mpg carbuerators.

M.

 

[Mark R]

Can you show me a car or two you absolutely know for certain has a temperature probe right next to the battery?

Toyotas have a temperature probe on the battery since about 2000.

 

[tortillasoup]

For those that don't work on cars much...I specifically said Dodge Neon for the temperature sensor..... It's in the battery tray. Dodge SRT-4 also had them in almost all the model years, as did the PT Cruisers, many years of Dodge Rams, Chrysler Sebring and Jeep Cherokees. Many Hondas - I know the Oddysey does and the Toyota Prius also has them.

Lack of general automotive knowledge by automotive battery experts doesn't give me much faith. I certainly hope it's because there was time well spent in schools..

No, you just have model specific knowledge. I was able to confirm that indeed the vehicles you specified do have battery temp. probes for the battery.

My point in the earlier post is that everyone makes too much out of nothing. Most all reputable float chargers are for the most part equivalent, and likely made in the same Chinese Foxconn factories that make I-Phones. All of them charge batteries and virtually none of them is known to blow them up.

these desulfultation chargers have no tests to back their claims, and most everything out there points to snake oil, much like open air filters and 100 mpg carbuerators.

M.

You've never used one, so why argue? You have literally zero experience with these desulfation chargers and if they didn't work too well, people wouldn't be recommending them. At this point in time, nobody is going to fund an independent study on this because there is no money in it. I could do some tests with this, but nobody would value such tests so why bother? As said before, they're not a miracle cure, they work best on batteries that aren't too far gone. Also considering the price difference between the temperature compensated tender and the Battery Minder 1500 which has temperature compensation and desulfation, the Battery Minder 1500 is a winner.

I cannot vouch for all "desulfating products" because I have not tested them all in all circumstances. I do definitely understand your skepticism as there are indeed positive reviews of some battery fluid additives on amazon such as here:http://www.amazon.com/Charge-It-Conc...attery+restore

I can't attest to the efficacy of that "battery fluid" product either but it does make me wonder how often a positive review is because of placebo effect.... It's things like this that make me want to try out that battery analyzer that Cadex Electronics sells (they own batteryuniversity.com)





Review of a battery desulfators:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/ho...l/impp-1105-battery-desulfators-fact-fiction/

 

[LTC8K6]

Jeeps have used battery temp sensors since the late 90's I believe.

Description and Operation

The Battery Temperature Sensor (BTS) is attached to the battery tray located under the battery.

The BTS is used to determine the battery temperature and control battery charging rate. This temperature data, along with data from monitored line voltage, is used by the PCM to vary the battery charging rate. System voltage will be higher at colder temperatures and is gradually reduced at warmer temperatures.

The PCM sends 5 volts to the sensor and is grounded through the sensor return line. As temperature increases, resistance in the sensor decreases and the detection voltage at the PCM increases.

The BTS is also used for OBD II diagnostics. Certain faults and OBD II monitors are either enabled or disabled, depending upon BTS input (for example, disable purge and enable Leak Detection Pump (LDP) and O2 sensor heater tests). Most OBD II monitors are disabled below 20 °F

P1492/1493 is the code for a problem with the BTS.

I changed my 2008GC battery this year because it had been in the vehicle, going by the build date, since 2007. So about 7 years old. It was cranking fine, but I don't see the point in waiting until I'm stranded.

I replaced it with the factory Mopar battery, purely to keep it original looking.

It was $175.00 :biggrin:

 

[Zenmervolt]

Oh ZV, straight from your beloved Deltran about temperature compensation:
http://batterytender.com/resources/frequently-asked-questions/#answer18

Where did I say that Deltran was "beloved"? The only thing I've said so far is that their basic chargers don't "cook" batteries. That's it. And they don't cook batteries. If they reduced the lifespan of a battery compared to not using them, they wouldn't sell.

And it's not at all surprising that Deltran talks positively about temperature compensated charging since if they can get you to believe that you need it, you'll buy their $70 charger instead of their $30 charger. It's almost as though they want to make more money or something... Strange that.

Even with that commercial interest in getting people to buy their more expensive chargers, they still say exactly the same thing that I've been saying all along (emphasis added):

In many consumer applications like SLI, deep cycle marine, etc., temperature compensation will increase long-term battery performance, but it is probably not essential in all applications.

An engine bay can stay hot for several hours especially if the ambient temperature doesn't get below 80 degrees until late in the evening.

I've never in my life had an engine bay stay that hot for "several hours." And that's including working on a car I'd just taken off a racetrack where it had been running at full song.

So, you over charge a battery for 8 hours after work for one week in a row and now you've effectively killed your battery.

Which is obviously why my motorcycle batteries, which sit immediately between the exhaust header for the rear cylinder of my bike's air-cooled engine and the dry-sump oil tank (operating tank temperature, 200 degrees), and which are immediately plugged back in to my battery tender when I get home from riding are all failing so soon... Wait... No... They're lasting many years.

You've obviously never done this before which is possibly why ZV you defend an indefensible position.

And once again, you've made an incorrect assumption that makes you look rather foolish.

Look, the OP will not kill his battery by using a basic float charger. It's just not going to happen. Especially not if he's using a pigtail to charge the battery with it in the car. The Battery Tender Jr. only puts out 750 milliamps in it's bulk charge mode. You're looking at maybe, maybe 200 milliamps in float mode. Up to 100 milliamps of which will be siphoned off by the car's parasitic draw. At a charge amperage that small, it's just not possible for it to do the kind of damage you're claiming it will.

Would something with temperature compensation likely allow him to make the battery last even longer than a non-compensated charger? It's certainly probable. Whether the difference is significant is questionable, but in all likelihood a temperature compensated charger would provide some increase.

Would a non-compensated charger make the battery die faster than no charger at all? Absolutely not. To claim otherwise is patently absurd. Even a non-compensated charger will extend battery life over no charger at all, and the difference between no charger and a non-compensated float charger will be much greater than the difference between a compensated and non-compensated chargers.

ZV

 

[tortillasoup]

Where did I say that Deltran was "beloved"? The only thing I've said so far is that their basic chargers don't "cook" batteries. That's it. And they don't cook batteries. If they reduced the lifespan of a battery compared to not using them, they wouldn't sell.

And it's not at all surprising that Deltran talks positively about temperature compensated charging since if they can get you to believe that you need it, you'll buy their $70 charger instead of their $30 charger. It's almost as though they want to make more money or something... Strange that.

Even with that commercial interest in getting people to buy their more expensive chargers, they still say exactly the same thing that I've been saying all along (emphasis added):

Of course it's not essential in all applications, even I've agreed to that. However if you don't want to sulfate/cook your battery, you better not charge it when the temperature is out of range for the given float charge that the charger uses. If the instruction manual is smart, it will say to charge the battery in 60-70F temperatures.

I've never in my life had an engine bay stay that hot for "several hours." And that's including working on a car I'd just taken off a racetrack where it had been running at full song.

I don't know where you live but I definitely have. Also what you consider warm, I'd consider hot. 100F is considered "hot" if you're charging a battery FYI.

Which is obviously why my motorcycle batteries, which sit immediately between the exhaust header for the rear cylinder of my bike's air-cooled engine and the dry-sump oil tank (operating tank temperature, 200 degrees), and which are immediately plugged back in to my battery tender when I get home from riding are all failing so soon... Wait... No... They're lasting many years.

A motorcycle is an open design, there is a lot more ability for it to dissipate the heat than a closed hood of an engine. If you park your bike outside, wind helps cool off the bike and if you park it in a garage, the hope is the cooler garage will help cool it (maybe)...

Look, the OP will not kill his battery by using a basic float charger. It's just not going to happen. Especially not if he's using a pigtail to charge the battery with it in the car. The Battery Tender Jr. only puts out 750 milliamps in it's bulk charge mode. You're looking at maybe, maybe 200 milliamps in float mode. Up to 100 milliamps of which will be siphoned off by the car's parasitic draw. At a charge amperage that small, it's just not possible for it to do the kind of damage you're claiming it will.

Would something with temperature compensation likely allow him to make the battery last even longer than a non-compensated charger? It's certainly probable. Whether the difference is significant is questionable, but in all likelihood a temperature compensated charger would provide some increase.

Would a non-compensated charger make the battery die faster than no charger at all? Absolutely not. To claim otherwise is patently absurd. Even a non-compensated charger will extend battery life over no charger at all, and the difference between no charger and a non-compensated float charger will be much greater than the difference between a compensated and non-compensated chargers.

ZV

You can't say "absolutely not" when it's proven you can kill a battery by charging at too high of a voltage for a given temperature. He says he lives in Florida, and I live in Northern California, so that right there says that if I've killed batteries by charging them with non compensated chargers, he definitely will. It's true that at 750mah he runs a far smaller risk of damaging the battery but if that charger tries to get that battery to 14.7v when the battery is over 120F, and he does this every day, the battery will be dead mighty quick.

If OP goes with the BM1500 and uses the external temperature probe, it's pretty much idiot proof as it's hard to think of a scenario where Op would fuck up and make things worse. Op's battery will last significantly longer and he'll be better off. This is all assuming he can remember to disconnect the battery charger before he drives off with the car.