Battery question..

[jlee]

You're right on the money... Cars need good voltages today because the electronics are sensitive to that sort of thing while a carbureted car or one with a simpler EFI system wouldn't care as much about the system voltage. A '98 Civic would operate normally with a resting voltage of only 11v while on say an '01 LS430, a resting voltage of 11.9V would definitely cause all sorts of errors and stuff to come up.

I had a Corolla once that would start and run when the battery was only showing 9 volts (with the car off)...I'm amazed it had enough to start, but it certainly wasn't fussy!

 

[Zenmervolt]

I keep a trickle charger on my mc batteries (agm) during the winters and never had a problem.

A trickle charger or a float charger? There is a huge difference between the two.

A trickle charger will damage a battery if you leave it hooked up for months.

A float charger will not.

A trickle charger is a dumb charger that simply puts out a constant low-amperage charge. Left long enough, this will overcharge a battery and slowly destroy it.

A float charger monitors the battery's state of charge and will turn itself off once the battery reaches 100% charge, and then only come on again if the battery falls below a set charge. It continuously monitors the battery and cannot overcharge.

What the OP wants is a float charger. Something like a Deltran Battery Tender.

ZV

 

[BUTCH1]

A trickle charger or a float charger? There is a huge difference between the two.

A trickle charger will damage a battery if you leave it hooked up for months.

A float charger will not.

A trickle charger is a dumb charger that simply puts out a constant low-amperage charge. Left long enough, this will overcharge a battery and slowly destroy it.

A float charger monitors the battery's state of charge and will turn itself off once the battery reaches 100% charge, and then only come on again if the battery falls below a set charge. It continuously monitors the battery and cannot overcharge.

What the OP wants is a float charger. Something like a Deltran Battery Tender.

ZV

OK, thanks, they even sell a "JR" version for $23 at Amazon, it also includes "float" capability as well, can't go wrong at that price, that's about 1/4 the cost of a new batt, if I get one of these I'm thinking I'll get 4 years out of the one wally just replaced.

 

[tortillasoup]

OK, thanks, they even sell a "JR" version for $23 at Amazon, it also includes "float" capability as well, can't go wrong at that price, that's about 1/4 the cost of a new batt, if I get one of these I'm thinking I'll get 4 years out of the one wally just replaced.

Actually you can go wrong, a crappy float charger like the one you mentioned will cook your battery dry. That's why I recommend something like the batteryminder 1500 which won't cook your battery.

 

[LTC8K6]

The Battery Tender line won't "cook your battery dry".

Why the silly promotion?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Actually you can go wrong, a crappy float charger like the one you mentioned will cook your battery dry. That's why I recommend something like the batteryminder 1500 which won't cook your battery.

That's pure bullshit.

The Deltran Battery Tender is by far the dominant brand in float chargers for a reason and the Battery Tender Jr will maintain a battery very well. I can point you to hundreds of people on motorcycle forums with great experiences leaving their bikes plugged into that charger for months on end during winter seasons. If it doesn't cook the tiny and temperamental batteries on motorcycles, it certainly won't cook a full size automotive battery.

ZV

 

[tortillasoup]

That's pure bullshit.

The Deltran Battery Tender is by far the dominant brand in float chargers for a reason and the Battery Tender Jr will maintain a battery very well. I can point you to hundreds of people on motorcycle forums with great experiences leaving their bikes plugged into that charger for months on end during winter seasons. If it doesn't cook the tiny and temperamental batteries on motorcycles, it certainly won't cook a full size automotive battery.

ZV

If the charger isn't temperature compensated then two things will happen... either the battery will get sulfated or it will boil off the electrolyte. Here are two float voltage vs. temperature charts which show the ideal float voltage for a given temperature.

Battery tender is the dominant brand but that doesn't make the the best value, just a familiar brand. I almost bought one 4 years ago but after doing extensive research on lead acid batteries, I came to the conclusion that the best value device on the market is a Battery Minder 1500. I also have a Batteryminder 12248 but it's quite a bit more expensive and for tending applications, I just didn't feel the need for it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

If the charger isn't temperature compensated then two things will happen... either the battery will get sulfated or it will boil off the electrolyte. Here are two float voltage vs. temperature charts which show the ideal float voltage for a given temperature.

Battery tender is the dominant brand but that doesn't make the the best value, just a familiar brand. I almost bought one 4 years ago but after doing extensive research on lead acid batteries, I came to the conclusion that the best value device on the market is a Battery Minder 1500. I also have a Batteryminder 12248 but it's quite a bit more expensive and for tending applications, I just didn't feel the need for it.

That's all very nice in theory.

In practice it's bullshit for the vast majority of people.

If it mattered to any meaningful degree, we'd see lots of batteries failing despite being on battery tenders and you know what? That just doesn't happen.

You don't get to be the dominant brand by making a product that doesn't work, and the simple fact is that the Battery Tender Jr. works. If they were cooking batteries in actual practice, you can bet that at least some of the millions of people using them would have complained about it.

ZV

 

[tortillasoup]

That's all very nice in theory.

In practice it's bullshit for the vast majority of people.

If it mattered to any meaningful degree, we'd see lots of batteries failing despite being on battery tenders and you know what? That just doesn't happen.

It absolutely matters if you actually care to have your battery last longer than 3 years.

You don't get to be the dominant brand by making a product that doesn't work, and the simple fact is that the Battery Tender Jr. works. If they were cooking batteries in actual practice, you can bet that at least some of the millions of people using them would have complained about it.

ZV

The Battery Tender jr. was an acceptable device for a long time but there are much better devices available. It's just like the transition from linear power supplies (transformer brick) to Switching Mode Power supplies or from resistance water heaters to Heatpump water heaters, carbureted cars to fuel injected to direct injection, etc... The very idea that a battery charger is now capable of actually improving the longevity and actually improving the Reserve Capacity from the time you purchased it is in of itself amazing. Batteries instantly begin to sulfate once they've been assembled and have had acid poured into them so using desulfating battery charger can potentially increase the performance of a "new" battery.

 

[LTC8K6]

If you think you need temperature compensation you can step up to the BT Plus.

 

[tortillasoup]

If you think you need temperature compensation you can step up to the BT Plus.

True, but the BT plus is only 1.25a while the Battery Minder 1500 is a 1.5a. Also the BT Plus doesn't have 24/7 desulfation like the Battery Minder 1500. So if I'm going to spend $50 on a battery charger/float charger, why would I get an inferior product? I've owned the 12248 Battery charger for 3 years now and the 1500 for a year now, both superb products. The 1500 model has a 5 year warranty and if you buy the Battery Minder 1510 which costs about $5-7 more, it comes with a 10 year warranty.

 

[LTC8K6]

True, but the BT plus is only 1.25a while the Battery Minder 1500 is a 1.5a. Also the BT Plus doesn't have 24/7 desulfation like the Battery Minder 1500. So if I'm going to spend $50 on a battery charger/float charger, why would I get an inferior product? I've owned the 12248 Battery charger for 3 years now and the 1500 for a year now, both superb products. The 1500 model has a 5 year warranty and if you buy the Battery Minder 1510 which costs about $5-7 more, it comes with a 10 year warranty.

I never heard of the company that makes/sells the BM products.

I tend to stick with companies I'm familiar with.

A good maintainer will prevent sulfation, so you won't need desulfation.

 

[WackyDan]

Butch...

We may have touched on this before, but seeing as we essentially own the same car...

The wife's Malibu eats a battery every three years. This last one only lasted 2 1/2 years. It doesn't matter if it is an expensive or economy battery. I just think the engine bay being arranged the way it is and the fact that it is a 2005 GM cooks the battery. Other makes of cars have had this issue as well. There is no insulation for that battery from the engine heat. 3 years per battery is what I see as the common complaint in regard to our vintage Malibus and that has been my experience as well.

If you are driving your Malibu regularly, I highly doubt you need a battery maintainer. The problem is the Malibu design. I accepted that I would be replacing a battery every three years. I think I'll only be replacing one more before we retire the car... another 3 to 4 years from now.

 

[LTC8K6]

True, but the BT plus is only 1.25a while the Battery Minder 1500 is a 1.5a. Also the BT Plus doesn't have 24/7 desulfation like the Battery Minder 1500. So if I'm going to spend $50 on a battery charger/float charger, why would I get an inferior product? I've owned the 12248 Battery charger for 3 years now and the 1500 for a year now, both superb products. The 1500 model has a 5 year warranty and if you buy the Battery Minder 1510 which costs about $5-7 more, it comes with a 10 year warranty.

I might actually have a need for something like the 12248 to keep where I work. I have a couple employees who drive clunkers with crap batteries. They are always needing them charged or needing a jump in the winter. They always buy or find old batteries. I always end up letting them use my charger/starter.

 

[tortillasoup]

The wife's Malibu eats a battery every three years. This last one only lasted 2 1/2 years. It doesn't matter if it is an expensive or economy battery. I just think the engine bay being arranged the way it is and the fact that it is a 2005 GM cooks the battery.
If you are driving your Malibu regularly, I highly doubt you need a battery maintainer. The problem is the Malibu design. I accepted that I would be replacing a battery every three years. I think I'll only be replacing one more before we retire the car... another 3 to 4 years from now.

If heat is the issue, maybe you can put a reflective foil around the battery to reflect engine bay heat off the battery?? I've seen some vehicles use various forms of insulation to keep the battery from getting too hot in the engine bay. A "relatively" high charging voltage (14.1v) from the alternator + high battery temps = Dead battery. 14v+ is a good charging voltage from an alternator but if the battery gets to 110F+ that would definitely explain why the batteries in that car prematurely fail.

According to this chart here:

If the battery is 110F, max charging voltage should be only 13.8V, yet if the alternator doesn't reduce charging voltage when the battery gets that hot, then it will cook the battery. On the other hand, when I had an '07 Tundra, it had a charging voltage of 14.2v when cold but according to the service manual, when the alternator got to like 85F+, it's designed to reduce the charging voltage. Which it does, but the problem was, I didn't like that it reduced it down all the way to only 13.2V which I feel was a little too low, not allowing the battery to get fully charged especially if doing a lot of city driving.

I never heard of the company that makes/sells the BM products.

I tend to stick with companies I'm familiar with.

A good maintainer will prevent sulfation, so you won't need desulfation.

VDC electronics makes the battery minder. They've been making desulfating battery chargers for at least 15 years now which makes sense since their patent is from like '98 or so.



As for a "good maintainer will prevent sulfation", yes to a limited extent but what makes a full time desulfator so special is the fact that if a battery does have sulfation (which almost all of them do), it will actually reverse it over time. I've recovered batteries that had a fully charged resting voltage of only 11.9v back to a resting of 12.6V. The battery is 10 years old now and though it had a fairly easy life in the trunk of a car, it just got a little sulfated from being parked for extended periods of time. The battery charger isn't a miracle charger, it won't bring a lot of "bad batteries" back from the brink but if you have a battery that is getting a little long in the tooth but still works, it's worth a try having the charger tend to it for a few months.

 

[jlee]

lol at "if the battery gets to 110f".

That's lower than ambient temp out here.

 

[LTC8K6]

If heat is the issue, maybe you can put a reflective foil around the battery to reflect engine bay heat off the battery?? I've seen some vehicles use various forms of insulation to keep the battery from getting too hot in the engine bay. A "relatively" high charging voltage (14.1v) from the alternator + high battery temps = Dead battery. 14v+ is a good charging voltage from an alternator but if the battery gets to 110F+ that would definitely explain why the batteries in that car prematurely fail.

According to this chart here:


If the battery is 110F, max charging voltage should be only 13.8V, yet if the alternator doesn't reduce charging voltage when the battery gets that hot, then it will cook the battery. On the other hand, when I had an '07 Tundra, it had a charging voltage of 14.2v when cold but according to the service manual, when the alternator got to like 85F+, it's designed to reduce the charging voltage. Which it does, but the problem was, I didn't like that it reduced it down all the way to only 13.2V which I feel was a little too low, not allowing the battery to get fully charged especially if doing a lot of city driving.





VDC electronics makes the battery minder. They've been making desulfating battery chargers for at least 15 years now which makes sense since their patent is from like '98 or so.



As for a "good maintainer will prevent sulfation", yes to a limited extent but what makes a full time desulfator so special is the fact that if a battery does have sulfation (which almost all of them do), it will actually reverse it over time. I've recovered batteries that had a fully charged resting voltage of only 11.9v back to a resting of 12.6V. The battery is 10 years old now and though it had a fairly easy life in the trunk of a car, it just got a little sulfated from being parked for extended periods of time. The battery charger isn't a miracle charger, it won't bring a lot of "bad batteries" back from the brink but if you have a battery that is getting a little long in the tooth but still works, it's worth a try having the charger tend to it for a few months.

I know who makes them. I never heard of VDC.

 

[Zenmervolt]

It absolutely matters if you actually care to have your battery last longer than 3 years.

Considering that the typical lifespan for motorcycle batteries kept on Battery Tenders (without temperature compensation) is over 5 years, I'm going to say that, unsurprisingly, you are full of shit once again.

The Battery Tender jr. was an acceptable device for a long time but there are much better devices available. It's just like the transition from linear power supplies (transformer brick) to Switching Mode Power supplies or from resistance water heaters to Heatpump water heaters, carbureted cars to fuel injected to direct injection, etc... The very idea that a battery charger is now capable of actually improving the longevity and actually improving the Reserve Capacity from the time you purchased it is in of itself amazing. Batteries instantly begin to sulfate once they've been assembled and have had acid poured into them so using desulfating battery charger can potentially increase the performance of a "new" battery.

Jesus christ. You are a picture perfect example of how a little theoretical knowledge in the hands of a layman can lead to absolutely absurd positions.

Temperature compensation is necessary if you're routinely seeing weeks on the charger with ambient temperatures over 95 degrees for the entire period (even at night). For the vast majority of the country, that's just not the case.

The simple fact is that real life experiences demonstrate that there is simply no need for temperature compensation or a desulfation mode for the vast majority of users in actual practice.

Additionally, most battery experts agree that "full-time" desulfation (as used by the BatteryMinder) is harmful to batteries over the long term (by causing grid corrosion) and that benefit only comes from a desulfation mode that is activated only when the charger detects sulfation as opposed to being blindly used 100% of the time (as the BatteryMinder does).

ZV

 

[tortillasoup]

Considering that the typical lifespan for motorcycle batteries kept on Battery Tenders (without temperature compensation) is over 5 years, I'm going to say that, unsurprisingly, you are full of shit once again.

Why would you argue with me when the facts are on my side? Fact is, two things will happen, either the battery will sulfate due to insufficient float charging voltage + no full time desulfation or you'll cook the plates leading to not only warped/fracture/damaged plates but also the boil off of electrolyte eventually leading to sulfation once the electrolyte levels get too low.

You say this stuff doesn't matter, yet have you ever worked with an uninterruptible power supply, like the ones used for keeping your computer running when the power goes out? Notice how those go bad after about 5 years? Notice how they bulge on the sides? Ever wonder why? Is it perhaps the circuitry isn't temperature compensated? Maybe it's because they don't have a built in 24/7 desulfator. I'm not certain, but I certainly want to find out.

You don't even own one of these chargers yet you're so certain of your self, why? What makes you qualified to make statements when the science and experience is on my side? I have worked with hundreds of lead acid batteries of varying types, voltages, and sizes along with dozens of different battery chargers. My book knowledge and real world knowledge have converged onto a point, and at this point it indicates that you haven't a clue about what you're talking about.

For me, my priority is getting maximum life out of equipment and in this case, quite expensive batteries while also doing it in an economical fashion with the least amount of user intervention.

Jesus christ. You are a picture perfect example of how a little theoretical knowledge in the hands of a layman can lead to absolutely absurd positions.

Temperature compensation is necessary if you're routinely seeing weeks on the charger with ambient temperatures over 95 degrees for the entire period (even at night). For the vast majority of the country, that's just not the case.

The simple fact is that real life experiences demonstrate that there is simply no need for temperature compensation or a desulfation mode for the vast majority of users in actual practice.

Real life experiences demonstrate that there is simply no need? Are you fucking serious? What part of recovering a $150 10 year old car battery from 11.9V fully charged resting voltage to 12.6V do you not understand? That over about 6 months, a temperature compensated, desulfating battery tender will more than pay for itself! Have you ever worked on a grid tied solar battery backup bank that had $10K worth of batteries gone to shit because they weren't on temperature compensated charge controllers nor had desulfation functionality? Have you ever encountered "New" batteries that "magically" just didn't have all that much capacity because they had been sitting on the shelf for several months, leading to sulfation despite being occasionally charged?

Sulfation can happen in many conditions both in high and low temperatures. So don't tell me that "temperature compensation" doesn't matter because you live in a temperate climate and you throw away your batteries after 5 years. I'm sorry the extent of knowledge about Lead acid batteries begins with you measuring battery voltage with your DMM and ends with you measuring the specific gravity of the battery cells, but that doesn't mean others don't hold themselves to a higher standard.

Additionally, most battery experts agree that "full-time" desulfation (as used by the BatteryMinder) is harmful to batteries over the long term (by causing grid corrosion) and that benefit only comes from a desulfation mode that is activated only when the charger detects sulfation as opposed to being blindly used 100% of the time (as the BatteryMinder does).

ZV

Really, who are these "battery experts" you speak of? Please, go quote, I'm interested... Why should I believe your heresy about desulfation but then you get to ignore all the facts about temperature compensated float charging? Do you have any idea how any one of these full time desulfation devices work? Do you even know what the duty cycle is? Do you even know what these devices do? These "desulfation devices" cover a wide spectrum of devices, some of them work better than others. I'm currently testing two Power Pulse PP-12-L to see if these could work in the application I plan to use them in and because they were a bit cheaper than the Battery Minder's equivalent. I also want to see if putting a battery minder on a battery and then using a PP-12-L in addition would decrease the amount of time it took to desulfate the battery... Now, why would that be the case? Well because the Battery Minder works at a different frequency range than the PP-12-L.


Jesus christ. You are a picture perfect example of how a little theoretical knowledge in the hands of a layman can lead to absolutely absurd positions.
This quote is fun because it's really applicable to you and how you behave in this garage forum. You're not a mechanic, yet you play one on this internet message board. What IS your day job anyhow?

 

[BUTCH1]

Butch...

We may have touched on this before, but seeing as we essentially own the same car...

The wife's Malibu eats a battery every three years. This last one only lasted 2 1/2 years. It doesn't matter if it is an expensive or economy battery. I just think the engine bay being arranged the way it is and the fact that it is a 2005 GM cooks the battery. Other makes of cars have had this issue as well. There is no insulation for that battery from the engine heat. 3 years per battery is what I see as the common complaint in regard to our vintage Malibus and that has been my experience as well.

If you are driving your Malibu regularly, I highly doubt you need a battery maintainer. The problem is the Malibu design. I accepted that I would be replacing a battery every three years. I think I'll only be replacing one more before we retire the car... another 3 to 4 years from now.

Actually the plastic shroud it sits in has a vent to the front grill so when you drive air is rammed into the battery compartment, IMPO it's just undersized for a 3.5L engine. It was worth the extra $$ to spring for the Wally 5-yr battery since the first 3 years are free replacement and the last 2 are pro-rated. I need to get off my as and do a parasitic draw and see if anything's abnormal there.

 

[WackyDan]

Actually the plastic shroud it sits in has a vent to the front grill so when you drive air is rammed into the battery compartment, IMPO it's just undersized for a 3.5L engine. It was worth the extra $$ to spring for the Wally 5-yr battery since the first 3 years are free replacement and the last 2 are pro-rated. I need to get off my as and do a parasitic draw and see if anything's abnormal there.

My wife's driving is pretty limited... Stop and go... Max 45 MPH for brief periods. Her typical range from the house is a few miles at best. So I wonder if that impacts anything. Every couple of weeks there is a longer trip.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Why would you argue with me when the facts are on my side?

Because in the real world, you're talking about benefits that are so infinitesimally small that they don't matter.

We're talking about car and motorcycle batteries that are hooked up to a charger intermittently and, at most for a few months over winter. This is not in any way comparable to the usage patterns of a UPS and the fact that you are comparing the two illustrates that you're not comprehending how the real world works.

You don't even own one of these chargers yet you're so certain of your self, why?

Because, despite your claims, I get 6-10 years out of my batteries when using a simple, non-temperature-compensated float charger. The shortest lifespan I've ever gotten was 5 years on an old, unsealed basic motorcycle battery that I didn't even use distilled water in when topping it up.

If your claims were correct, I would not be seeing those lifespans. For the application specified by the OP, which is hooking up a car battery to a float charger for, at most, a couple weeks at a time, temperature compensation and desulfation modes are wholly unnecessary.

Real life experiences demonstrate that there is simply no need? (long irrelevant references to applications that have no relation to what the OP is talking about removed.)

See above. We're not talking about "grid-connected" batteries. We're not talking about industrial UPS applications. We're not talking about instances where batteries are kept on a charger for, at most, a few months.

If these chargers were truly killing batteries, my motorcycle batteries wouldn't be lasting as long as they do.

I don't know where you got the idea that I throw my batteries away after 5 years. I said that's the typical lifespan people report for their motorcycle batteries. Motorcycle batteries are small, and most motorcycle charging systems are weak (many can't actually charge the battery below 1,500-2,000 RPM). Motorcycle batteries are extremely sensitive to over/under charging and they have very little reserve capacity; if they're not in tip top shape, your bike doesn't start.

Really, who are these "battery experts" you speak of?

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it

Several companies offer anti-sulfation devices that apply pulses to the battery terminals to prevent and reverse sulfation. Such technologies tend to lower sulfation on a healthy battery but they cannot effectively reverse the condition once present. Manufacturers offering these devices take the “one size fits all” approach and the method is unscientific. A random service of pulsing or blindly applying an overcharge can harm the battery in promoting grid corrosion.

You're not a mechanic, yet you play one on this internet message board. What IS your day job anyhow?

This is the internet, so, billionaire rock star. It's exactly as credible as your claim to be a competent mechanic.

ZV

 

[tortillasoup]

Because in the real world, you're talking about benefits that are so infinitesimally small that they don't matter.

We're talking about car and motorcycle batteries that are hooked up to a charger intermittently and, at most for a few months over winter. This is not in any way comparable to the usage patterns of a UPS and the fact that you are comparing the two illustrates that you're not comprehending how the real world works.

Look, even if those were your habits, having a temperature compensated, desulfating battery charger on the battery for 3 months out of every year would do a lot of good to your battery. It's nice that you think things don't matter but if you keep a battery for a long time, it absolutely does matter. You just have absolutely no idea what's going on inside of a battery when you charge a battery in sub optimal conditions.

Because, despite your claims, I get 6-10 years out of my batteries when using a simple, non-temperature-compensated float charger. The shortest lifespan I've ever gotten was 5 years on an old, unsealed basic motorcycle battery that I didn't even use distilled water in when topping it up.

So why is the lifespan of your batteries so varied? Is it because your usage habits vary? Different motorcycle? Different temperature conditions? Oh it's because you think you got a "cheap" battery, right? Well you don't know do you, because you don't care yet you care enough to exclaim "in the real world"... In YOUR world, you aren't paying attention and if something fails prematurely, you don't know why, just that you're going to have to replace something now. The Batteryminder 1500 can be purchased for $48 with free ship right now, I bought 2 of them for $43 out the door when Northern Tool had a sale going on with coupon. Why even argue over this shit when you're wrong. If you want to extract maximum life and possibly reverse previous damage you've done by charging in sub-optimal conditions, then using a 4 stage, desulfating, temp compensated battery charger is the way to go. PERIOD. The company that sells the Battery Tender Jr. also sells a temp compensated plus model, knowing full well that temp compensation matters but that it's a more expensive feature.

If your claims were correct, I would not be seeing those lifespans. For the application specified by the OP, which is hooking up a car battery to a float charger for, at most, a couple weeks at a time, temperature compensation and desulfation modes are wholly unnecessary.

Why is it wholly unnecessary? OP has an issue of his batteries not lasting as long as he needs them to. Believe it or not ZV, the minute you leave a battery at less than full charge, sulfation begins to form, hopefully most of it will be reversed upon charging. If we're trying to help OP get more life out of his battery, and I'm giving suggestion of a device that has a proven track record of working, and that device is reasonably priced, then why argue? The Battery Tender jr. is an inferior device for the reasons I pointed out.

Oh and btw, if the OP is going to charge the battery right after driving a hot car with a hot battery, having temperature comp is absolutely necessary, though you'll need to attach an external temp probe directly to the battery as the 1500's probe is only near the charger (it can be swapped out).

You can't extend the life of a lead acid battery until you address the issues that are causing the battery to age, whether that be grid corrosion due to higher than necessary charge voltage or sulfation due to insufficient charge/charging voltage. If the battery is sulfated which in most cases, it is, then you need to reverse those effects.

Op's issue is most likely a sulfation problem, something that is caused by under charge. It would appear that he will be charging this battery regularly. Since the "real world" as you love to say are basically sub optimal conditions, then you should have no problem with the recommendation of a temp compensated charger as that helps compensate for "real world conditions".

See above. We're not talking about "grid-connected" batteries. We're not talking about industrial UPS applications. We're not talking about instances where batteries are kept on a charger for, at most, a few months.

If these chargers were truly killing batteries, my motorcycle batteries wouldn't be lasting as long as they do.

I don't know where you got the idea that I throw my batteries away after 5 years. I said that's the typical lifespan people report for their motorcycle batteries. Motorcycle batteries are small, and most motorcycle charging systems are weak (many can't actually charge the battery below 1,500-2,000 RPM). Motorcycle batteries are extremely sensitive to over/under charging and they have very little reserve capacity; if they're not in tip top shape, your bike doesn't start.

Keeping a lead acid battery less than topped up for about a week at a time, done many times over the life of the battery will lead to the premature death of that battery. Shit, even keeping that battery not topped up continuously will lead to its premature failure, that's a fact. If owners of motorcycles kept their batteries on the best chargers available on the market, they could get 20 years out of their batteries no problem. 20 years is sort of rare but it's possible with appropriate care, something someone such as yourself is clearly incapable of... But again, in the real world, people abuse their batteries and replace them quite frequently due neglect.

If you use an inferior battery charger in suboptimal conditions, you're basically killing your battery. Your line of thinking is the reason that battery tenders that cook batteries are still on the market. I mean yes, you could use a Battery Tender Jr. properly by ensuring the room temperature does not change and that the float charge voltage is matched with appropriate room temperature, but knowing you, you won't.



http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it
That's an excellent resource but I think you took this quote a bit out of context:

Several companies offer anti-sulfation devices that apply pulses to the battery terminals to prevent and reverse sulfation. Such technologies tend to lower sulfation on a healthy battery but they cannot effectively reverse the condition once present. Manufacturers offering these devices take the “one size fits all” approach and the method is unscientific. A random service of pulsing or blindly applying an overcharge can harm the battery in promoting grid corrosion. Technologies are being developed that measure the level of sulfation and apply a calculated overcharge to dissolve the crystals. Chargers featuring this technique only apply de-sulfation if sulfation is present and only for the time needed.

The site isn't necessarily saying the devices are bad but that there isn't enough science being applied to what these battery pulsers do and that a more measured, scientific approach can and should be applied to batteries. The Battery Minder 1500 also doesn't overcharge its batteries which in the past was something that was done to attempt to reverse sulfation. If I remember correctly, the company that hosts "battery university" sells expensive/advanced devices which are suppose to be able to measure battery sulfation through various techniques if there is any in the battery. I can't speak to efficacy of the devices the company sells but obviously there is room for improvement in the field of analyzing battery life and doing battery maintenance.

This is the internet, so, billionaire rock star. It's exactly as credible as your claim to be a competent mechanic.

ZV

Yeah well your hokey approach to things has given me this impression of you:

A bit of a hyperbole but the fact remains that you're just flat out wrong. "In the real world..." yes in the real world things are sub optimal, we have people that buy crappy battery chargers and people such as your self who don't know nor care. There is obviously room for improvement to the temp comp. desulfating battery chargers but right now, from what I know, the BM1500 is the best solution on the market at a reasonable price so it would be unreasonable to recommend anything but.



Hey BUTCH1, don't listen to ZV anyway, his advice about float charging batteries is limited to motorcycles. His circumstances are different enough from yours to where his limited knowledge and inferior advice would be detrimental to your circumstances. I actually have cars that are driven infrequently and so I use something like this

and use my Batteryminder 1500 charger on it when the car isn't being driven...

If you follow ZV's advice, what you will end up with is a battery with heavy grid corrosion AND sulfation.

 

[BUTCH1]

My wife's driving is pretty limited... Stop and go... Max 45 MPH for brief periods. Her typical range from the house is a few miles at best. So I wonder if that impacts anything. Every couple of weeks there is a longer trip.

I haven't checked but I'd bet dollars for donuts that my car was sold with the same battery that is in the base 2.5L 4-banger model. In years past manufacturers would compensate for a vehicle that was chock-full of electrical accessories with a higher-rated output alternator and bigger battery, I don't think that's the norm anymore though. With heated seats, power seats, power windows, heated mirrors, electric power steering, power moon-roof, and remote start a car maker should be obliged to "beef up" the battery and charging system but hey, it is GM we're talking about LOL..

 

[Zenmervolt]

So why is the lifespan of your batteries so varied?

How about you let me answer instead of making up your own (wildly incorrect) answer?

It's because I'm generalizing over dozens of different vehicles from small motorcycles with 14 amp-hour batteries to large V8 American land yachts with 10 times that capacity. Hell, there are a couple of boats in there using marine deep cycle batteries as well.

The usage patterns between vehicles differ wildly, as do realistically available storage options.

You suggested that batteries would not last for more than 3 years unless you used a temperature compensated charger. That's complete bullshit. Millions of people are getting much longer lifespans than that with simple float chargers. You are vastly over-stating the importance of temperature compensation in normal float-charger usage patterns.

Why is it wholly unnecessary?

Because the real-world benefit in the usage scenario that the OP is positing does not in any way resemble the sort of industrial scenarios where the batteries are at elevated temperatures for months or even years at a time due to proximity to continuously operating heat sources.

if the OP is going to charge the battery right after driving a hot car with a hot battery, having temperature comp is absolutely necessary, though you'll need to attach an external temp probe directly to the battery as the 1500's probe is only near the charger (it can be swapped out).

The battery will be warm after driving, yes. But it doesn't remain warm indefinitely. At most, it will retain meaningful warmth for an hour or two, which is simply not enough time for there to be any meaningful decrease in life expectancy from a non-temperature-compensated device.

If owners of motorcycles kept their batteries on the best chargers available on the market, they could get 20 years out of their batteries no problem.

This is absolutely hilarious. Are you sure you're not related to Fleabag somehow?

the BM1500 is the best solution on the market at a reasonable price so it would be unreasonable to recommend anything but.

I have no doubt that it's a good charger. But the practical effect of it as compared to the Battery Tender is not going to be a meaningful increase in battery life.

There is a difference between "better" and "meaningfully better."

I chose motorcycle batteries as an example because they are an extreme case. They are chosen with much less reserve than automotive batteries, they are subject to vastly more vibration, and, on many bikes, they sit directly behind an air-cooled engine which causes them to get much more heat than the typical car battery. On top of that, motorcycle charging systems are much weaker than cars and are often so bad at idle that switching on the turn signal makes the headlight dim in time with the signal's flashing.

These are batteries that, without any charger at all, typically fail within 2-3 years. In the days before float chargers were common, it was not at all uncommon for people to just buy a new battery every year. Using simple, non-temperature-compensated float chargers easily doubled that life expectancy. Clearly, the simple chargers aren't "cooking" the batteries.

Hey BUTCH1, don't listen to ZV anyway, his advice about float charging batteries is limited to motorcycles

No, it isn't. Motorcycles are simply a good example because their batteries live in far worse conditions than most automotive batteries and are, compared to automotive batteries, relatively undersized for their application. Those traits mean that problems with poor treatment or bad charging are magnified when dealing with motorcycle batteries. Problems from bad chargers are more likely to show up in noticeable ways for motorcycles than they are for cars.

FWIW, the battery in my summer/weekend use car ('86 951) sits on the same model battery tender as my motorcycle (the waterproof 800). The car's battery is currently 8 years old and still tests just fine.

There's nothing wrong with temperature compensated charges, but there's also no need to fear-monger about a lack of compensation "killing" batteries. Even a non-compensated charger will provide a significant extension in life expectancy and it's just not rational to worry about the difference.

ZV