Baseball Fans: Pedro Martinez HOFer?

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

You forgot the most important aspect, toughness and compared to the 5 I mentioned Pedro is a wuss.

Pedro's a wuss, right. I thought we were comparing pitcher's with the best stuff as an indicator of dominance, not durability. If you're talking about durability, let's talk about some of your guys.

Koufax: "After a solid 1964 start, he was 19-5 with a 1.74 ERA (again leading the league) before injuring his elbow in August and ending his season prematurely..." or "All this despite pain in his left elbow which was excruciating and caused him to retire at age 31 following the season. Warned that he risked losing the use of his arm if he continued to pitch, Koufax said, "I don't regret for one minute the 12 years I've spent in baseball, but I could regret one season too many."
He only pitched 12 years and his career ended on a injury.

Drysdale: "Like Koufax, Drysdale retired young due to an arm injury, at the age of 32."

McLain: "In 1964 McLain was farmed out to Syracuse of the International League but was called up in late May. In an injury-ridden season, he went 4-5." or "McLain raised some eyebrows when he missed the last two weeks in September because of a mysterious foot injury while Detroit was involved in a heated pennant race (1967)."

Marichal: "1962 World Series Game Seven -- Marichal did not appear in the 1-0 loss to the Yankees. Late in the regular season Marichal had suffered a foot injury which kept him out of the rotation for a short time and limited his usage in the Series." or "As well, Juan Marichal missed some time with injury, and didn't have a big year." (1967) or "In the spring of 1970, Marichal suffered a severe reaction to penicillin that led to chronic arthritis and a back injury when he tried to return too soon."

Gibson: "Of course, the Cardinals also had Bob Gibson, one of the greatest pitchers of the era; but like Marichal, Gibson missed significant time with injury, and didn't have a big year."(1967)

Seems like your top 5 got owned by injuries as well.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

your right, IF pedro had pitched more complete games than he would have had a lower ERA, he would also have had more K's, cg, so, etc. so you can't have it both ways. saying that pedro has fewer complete games is a fact, implying that this fact means that Pedro would have had a lower era leaves out the fact that other stats would have gone up.

If you want to speculate, it can go on and on.

take the numbers for what they are.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

You forgot the most important aspect, toughness and compared to the 5 I mentioned Pedro is a wuss.

Pedro's a wuss, right. I thought we were comparing pitcher's with the best stuff as an indicator of dominance, not durability. If you're talking about durability, let's talk about some of your guys.

Koufax: "After a solid 1964 start, he was 19-5 with a 1.74 ERA (again leading the league) before injuring his elbow in August and ending his season prematurely..." or "All this despite pain in his left elbow which was excruciating and caused him to retire at age 31 following the season. Warned that he risked losing the use of his arm if he continued to pitch, Koufax said, "I don't regret for one minute the 12 years I've spent in baseball, but I could regret one season too many."
He only pitched 12 years and his career ended on a injury.

Drysdale: "Like Koufax, Drysdale retired young due to an arm injury, at the age of 32."

McLain: "In 1964 McLain was farmed out to Syracuse of the International League but was called up in late May. In an injury-ridden season, he went 4-5." or "McLain raised some eyebrows when he missed the last two weeks in September because of a mysterious foot injury while Detroit was involved in a heated pennant race (1967)."

Marichal: "1962 World Series Game Seven -- Marichal did not appear in the 1-0 loss to the Yankees. Late in the regular season Marichal had suffered a foot injury which kept him out of the rotation for a short time and limited his usage in the Series." or "As well, Juan Marichal missed some time with injury, and didn't have a big year." (1967) or "In the spring of 1970, Marichal suffered a severe reaction to penicillin that led to chronic arthritis and a back injury when he tried to return too soon."

Gibson: "Of course, the Cardinals also had Bob Gibson, one of the greatest pitchers of the era; but like Marichal, Gibson missed significant time with injury, and didn't have a big year."(1967)

Seems like your top 5 got owned by injuries as well.

That was due to all the innings they pitched. If they had the benifit of Specialized Closers like the Pitchers of today have they would have lasted much longer.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages that todays pitcher have, the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages the todays pitcher has the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

I don't really care if you call Pedro a 'wuss'...I'm not really a Red Sox or Pedro fan. However, again, we're comparing how each player did against his own peers (pitchers) of his own time. Every pitcher from the 60's had the same advantages (higher mound among others) and the same disadvantages (less medical technology). Pitchers of today have the same advantages (better medical technology, more bullpen role) and the same disadvantages (lowered mound). We're not comparing Koufax of the 60's to Pedro of today. We're comparing HOW MUCH Koufax dominated against his peers (the other pithcers of his time) against HOW MUCH Pedro dominated against his peers. And again, in the end, Pedro comes out ahead.

In addition, your final statement that pitchers of Koufax's era would be much better today than current pitchers is only an opinion. It's not fact and it can never be proven anyways. I could just as easily say that pitchers of today like Clemens (and some consider him as the greatest pitcher since WW2) would perform 10x in Koufax's era. In addition, I could just say that Walter Johnson would pitcher 162 consecutive no hitters in today's era with today's technology. Of course that would all be opinion and cannot be backed up by anything.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages that todays pitcher have, the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

and that's why it's called SPECULATION.

Would the Babe have been better with todays modern training equipment supplements etc?? or would he have just gotten lost in the drug culture never to be heard from again? a point could be made either way. SPECULATION.

the numbers are what they are. and in his time period, pedro has dominated more than any other pitcher in their respective time periods.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages that todays pitcher have, the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

and that's why it's called SPECULATION.

Would the Babe have been better with todays modern training equipment supplements etc?? or would he have just gotten lost in the drug culture never to be heard from again? a point could be made either way. SPECULATION.

the numbers are what they are. and in his time period, pedro has dominated more than any other pitcher in their respective time periods.

How many Cy Young Awards has he won?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages that todays pitcher have, the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

and that's why it's called SPECULATION.

Would the Babe have been better with todays modern training equipment supplements etc?? or would he have just gotten lost in the drug culture never to be heard from again? a point could be made either way. SPECULATION.

the numbers are what they are. and in his time period, pedro has dominated more than any other pitcher in their respective time periods.

How many Cy Young Awards has he won?

They have both won three. Koufax finished in the top 5 one other time with 3rd place. Pedro finished in the top 5 twice with the #2 spot. Pedro will probably finish in the top 5 again this year. However, this doesn't mean much at all. The statistics should mean more than awards.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
OK, but that still doesn't prove anything. All you're saying is that one team has had a higher offensive output than Koufax's team, which isn't saying anything. Pedro hasn't exactly pitched on consistently great offenses either.

Dude, how many Complete games does Pedro have compared to Koufax? You think if he played back in the era were there really wasn't any Closers he would of had such great numbers for an ERA? The good pitchers back then often pitched well into the 8th inning and those like Koufax pitched into the 9th or complete games and still had unbelievable ERAs.

We aren't looking at only the player's ERA. We're looking at how the current player dominated against his peers. Sure, it's a different game today than it was back then and that's true. But that's why we're looking at a comparison of the player to his peers, to see how dominate he was in his own time. Pedro isn't the only pitcher today that has the luxury of a closer - every pitcher does now. Koufax wasn't the only one that had to pitch a significant number of innings - everyone did back then. So we look at how he did AGAINST his peers - and Pedro still comes out on top.

You shoud NOT look at ERAs from different eras. As you said, the game is played differently. Not to mention how offensively oriented the game is today when compared to Koufax's time.

I am sorry for calling Pedro a Wuss. I guess that comes from reading to many Sports Editorials here in Boston. I'm also not saying the Pedro hasn't dominat4ed his era because he has. I'm just saying that you can't realistically compare him to Koufax and say he was as good or better. The Pitchers back in Koufax's era were tougher than todays specialized player. Given the advantages that todays pitcher have, the great Pitchers from the past probably would be even better, at least the ones from the Modern era.

and that's why it's called SPECULATION.

Would the Babe have been better with todays modern training equipment supplements etc?? or would he have just gotten lost in the drug culture never to be heard from again? a point could be made either way. SPECULATION.

the numbers are what they are. and in his time period, pedro has dominated more than any other pitcher in their respective time periods.

How many Cy Young Awards has he won?

They have both won three. Koufax finished in the top 5 one other time with 3rd place. Pedro finished in the top 5 twice with the #2 spot. Pedro will probably finish in the top 5 again this year. However, this doesn't mean much at all. The statistics should mean more than awards.

OK I will concede that Pedro has dominated more than any other pitcher in their respective time periods but I still contend that he isn't as good as Koufax was due to watered downed player pool, Specialized Closers, Modern Travel, the DH and 3 Divisions per league.

 

[DogFromDuckhunt]

Pedro is a wuss! A couple of weeks ago he missed a start because of a sore throat. The Red Sox were right in the thick of a huge battle for a run at the playoffs and there he sat with a sore f'n throat! You mean to tell me Koufax, Brown, Nomo, Clemens, Johnson, or Schilling wouldn't go out there? The two games he missed were HUGE! He's one lucky ass mofo that they won the games anyway, because had they lost they more than likely would be going right down to the wire with the Mariners.

As much as I like the guy, and as amazing as he is a pitcher you have to see that he is a huge wuss.

 

[Francodman]

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Pedro is a wuss! A couple of weeks ago he missed a start because of a sore throat. The Red Sox were right in the thick of a huge battle for a run at the playoffs and there he sat with a sore f'n throat! You mean to tell me Koufax, Brown, Nomo, Clemens, Johnson, or Schilling wouldn't go out there? The two games he missed were HUGE! He's one lucky ass mofo that they won the games anyway, because had they lost they more than likely would be going right down to the wire with the Mariners.

As much as I like the guy, and as amazing as he is a pitcher you have to see that he is a huge wuss.

Manny had the sore throat, Pedro had the 104 fever.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Francodman

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Pedro is a wuss! A couple of weeks ago he missed a start because of a sore throat. The Red Sox were right in the thick of a huge battle for a run at the playoffs and there he sat with a sore f'n throat! You mean to tell me Koufax, Brown, Nomo, Clemens, Johnson, or Schilling wouldn't go out there? The two games he missed were HUGE! He's one lucky ass mofo that they won the games anyway, because had they lost they more than likely would be going right down to the wire with the Mariners.

As much as I like the guy, and as amazing as he is a pitcher you have to see that he is a huge wuss.

Manny had the sore throat, Pedro had the 104 fever.

Doesn't Manny have Cancer...no wait he is a Cancer..yeah that's the ticket

 

[Francodman]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Francodman

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Pedro is a wuss! A couple of weeks ago he missed a start because of a sore throat. The Red Sox were right in the thick of a huge battle for a run at the playoffs and there he sat with a sore f'n throat! You mean to tell me Koufax, Brown, Nomo, Clemens, Johnson, or Schilling wouldn't go out there? The two games he missed were HUGE! He's one lucky ass mofo that they won the games anyway, because had they lost they more than likely would be going right down to the wire with the Mariners.

As much as I like the guy, and as amazing as he is a pitcher you have to see that he is a huge wuss.

Manny had the sore throat, Pedro had the 104 fever.

Doesn't Manny have Cancer...no wait he is a Cancer..yeah that's the ticket

Yep, a $160 million cancer. And a cancer that wants to defect to his hosts most hated rival.

 

[DogFromDuckhunt]

Actually they both had a sore throat and Pedro had a slight fever of 100. Still not an excuse. You can't honestly sit there and tell me any of the pitchers I mentinoed above would miss a start with a sore throat and a slight fever.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Actually they both had a sore throat and Pedro had a slight fever of 100. Still not an excuse. You can't honestly sit there and tell me any of the pitchers I mentinoed above would miss a start with a sore throat and a slight fever.

Well Koufax did miss a WS start because of a Jewish Holy Day. That was OK though, Drysdale pitched instead.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Pedro was legitemately abstent, and Manny semi-so. These two situations were overplayed so terribly by the media that it's not even funny. Manny is the best hitter in the AL, is a decent fielder, and, OH NO, HE DOESN'T TALK TO THE MEDIA, HE SUCKS!!! OMG!!! You people talk about putting two and two together with the whole NVidia problem, how about here? Yes, he did take a little too much time off, but he was punished for it and seems to have learned his lesson. And he gets along just fine with his teammates (at least according to them-but I guess it's better to believe your own opinion, whatever). He is slightly overpaid, but I am tired of people badmouthing him for two bad situations the past two years (this and not running out the base hit, which he, again, was punished for and apologized for).

And, about that whole "watered down" crock, I strongly disagree. It is just a fact that players these days are in better shape than ever, and I would think that would translate to better players (or at least as good). Players from long ago are generally thought of as invincible, and that simply is not true. Babe dominated for his time, but I would love to see him do the same thing NOW.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Actually they both had a sore throat and Pedro had a slight fever of 100. Still not an excuse. You can't honestly sit there and tell me any of the pitchers I mentinoed above would miss a start with a sore throat and a slight fever.

And it wasn't a slight fever; get your facts straight. He was in the goddamned hospital.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Actually they both had a sore throat and Pedro had a slight fever of 100. Still not an excuse. You can't honestly sit there and tell me any of the pitchers I mentinoed above would miss a start with a sore throat and a slight fever.

And it wasn't a slight fever; get your facts straight. He was in the goddamned hospital.

Yup, Pedro was in a hospital bed. I guess the sentiment of NY fans is that he should have gone out there with IV's still attached to his arm and all, like night of the living dead hehe.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Pedro was legitemately abstent, and Manny semi-so. These two situations were overplayed so terribly by the media that it's not even funny. Manny is the best hitter in the AL, is a decent fielder, and, OH NO, HE DOESN'T TALK TO THE MEDIA, HE SUCKS!!! OMG!!! You people talk about putting two and two together with the whole NVidia problem, how about here? Yes, he did take a little too much time off, but he was punished for it and seems to have learned his lesson. And he gets along just fine with his teammates (at least according to them-but I guess it's better to believe your own opinion, whatever). He is slightly overpaid, but I am tired of people badmouthing him for two bad situations the past two years (this and not running out the base hit, which he, again, was punished for and apologized for).

And, about that whole "watered down" crock, I strongly disagree. It is just a fact that players these days are in better shape than ever, and I would think that would translate to better players (or at least as good). Players from long ago are generally thought of as invincible, and that simply is not true. Babe dominated for his time, but I would love to see him do the same thing NOW.

Manny is a freaking cancer, ask any Boston fan... we're fed up with him, and would love to trade him for a superstar pitcher to help Pedro out... there are alot of good hitters that will be available on the market next year (Vlad), and ones that want to win.

The only good thing I can say about Manny is that he's a great hitter, and his whole "I'm high all the time" act helps to calm the rest of the team down. On the flipside, his brain is almost always turned off (ask him how many outs there are at any time during a game and you'll probably get the wrong answer 6 out of 10 times). His baserunning is horrible, he doesn't listen to his the 1st and 3rd base coaches, let alone Grady or the rest of the Boston players. Millar had a talk with him earlier after his "I'm too sick to hit" fiasco and he basically just said "I don't care" to him. If you don't want to win, then you won't be in Boston next year. Go to the Yankees Manny!

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Pedro was legitemately abstent, and Manny semi-so. These two situations were overplayed so terribly by the media that it's not even funny. Manny is the best hitter in the AL, is a decent fielder, and, OH NO, HE DOESN'T TALK TO THE MEDIA, HE SUCKS!!! OMG!!! You people talk about putting two and two together with the whole NVidia problem, how about here? Yes, he did take a little too much time off, but he was punished for it and seems to have learned his lesson. And he gets along just fine with his teammates (at least according to them-but I guess it's better to believe your own opinion, whatever). He is slightly overpaid, but I am tired of people badmouthing him for two bad situations the past two years (this and not running out the base hit, which he, again, was punished for and apologized for).

And, about that whole "watered down" crock, I strongly disagree. It is just a fact that players these days are in better shape than ever, and I would think that would translate to better players (or at least as good). Players from long ago are generally thought of as invincible, and that simply is not true. Babe dominated for his time, but I would love to see him do the same thing NOW.

Manny is a freaking cancer, ask any Boston fan... we're fed up with him, and would love to trade him for a superstar pitcher to help Pedro out... there are alot of good hitters that will be available on the market next year (Vlad), and ones that want to win.

The only good thing I can say about Manny is that he's a great hitter, and his whole "I'm high all the time" act helps to calm the rest of the team down. On the flipside, his brain is almost always turned off (ask him how many outs there are at any time during a game and you'll probably get the wrong answer 6 out of 10 times). His baserunning is horrible, he doesn't listen to his the 1st and 3rd base coaches, let alone Grady or the rest of the Boston players. Millar had a talk with him earlier after his "I'm too sick to hit" fiasco and he basically just said "I don't care" to him. If you don't want to win, then you won't be in Boston next year. Go to the Yankees Manny!

I am a Boston fan and have seen only a small amount of people on any message board, baseball/Boston Red Sox only included. Yes, he has some downsides, but again it is all overplayed. He knows how many outs there are (it happened to Trot too, ship him out, the cancer) at any given moment, his baserunning is good enough for his speed (and he has 3 SB's, good enough), in the games i've watched, and that's quite a few, I've never seen him disobey a base coach, As far as I heard that was Grady that he said I don't care to, but it seems like he's gotten over this, as the past few games he hasn't exactly been ostricized, I guarantee he wants to win, it's just his laid-back style I suppose...AND, if he went to the Yankees, I would die. On the spot. Period.

 

[DogFromDuckhunt]

Ummm... it was a slight fever he went to the hospital to get an IV. Waaahhhh wahhhh, he's making it out to be FAR worse than it really was.

Oh, and I'm not a Yankee fan btw. I just see Pedro for what he is.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Ummm... it was a slight fever he went to the hospital to get an IV. Waaahhhh wahhhh, he's making it out to be FAR worse than it really was.

Oh, and I'm not a Yankee fan btw. I just see Pedro for what he is.

really?? what he is??

best pitcher of his generation is what he is.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Ummm... it was a slight fever he went to the hospital to get an IV. Waaahhhh wahhhh, he's making it out to be FAR worse than it really was.

Oh, and I'm not a Yankee fan btw. I just see Pedro for what he is.

really?? what he is??

best pitcher of his generation is what he is.

Would you consider the whole A's Pitching staff his generation? Hell they are just getting started and have shown themselves to be very good (and a lot more durable). Then there is that young Pitching staff that the Twinkies have. There are many pitchers today that have the potential of putting up better stats by the time their careers are finished than Pedro.

Pedro is great but he hasn't awed the baseball world like Koufax did or like Bob Feller did in their time.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: DogFromDuckhunt
Ummm... it was a slight fever he went to the hospital to get an IV. Waaahhhh wahhhh, he's making it out to be FAR worse than it really was.

Oh, and I'm not a Yankee fan btw. I just see Pedro for what he is.

really?? what he is??

best pitcher of his generation is what he is.

Would you consider the whole A's Pitching staff his generation? Hell they are just getting started and have shown themselves to be very good (and a lot more durable). Then there is that young Pitching staff that the Twinkies have. There are many pitchers today that have the potential of putting up better stats by the time their careers are finished than Pedro.

Pedro is great but he hasn't awed the baseball world like Koufax did or like Bob Feller did in their time.

Yes, i do feel that the A's pitching staff is pedro's generation and i don't feel ANY of them are as good as Pedro. Ironically, the best of the 3, in my opinion, is Hudson and he is very similar to pedro, relatively small, good fastball, good control, lots of weapons, and already showing himself to be injury prone.