Barry Bonds,greatest player of all time?

#1 juicer!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: murphy55d
Bonds is the greatest player of the current era... hands down. Like someone said, you can't compare cross-generations. There's no way to tell what would happen if Babe Ruth played in today's game..or if Bonds played during his era. They are both legends, as far as I'm concerned.

Ruth wouldn't pass the Physical

John Kruk always did.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Izzo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Izzo

Originally posted by: Borracho
Barry Bonds juices like a mofo. No matter what he says he will be tainted in my book. No matter what records he sets they will be tainted in my view. He does have a sweet swing but he still is a juicer. Ruth is the greatest in my book.

I agree. I don't care about calling them "allegations" or that he is innocent until proven guilty. The bottom line is that your head, jaw, and face don't go on some random growth spurt once you hit 35 years of age. All of his records should be tossed out. He should have to prove that he didn't take the steroids. Not the other way around.

Just how does he prove that ?

Well, I guess he could've started by voluntarily taking blood tests when all of this started 4-5 years ago instead of hiding behind the union. Having his personal trainer as the drug czar to the MLB doesn't help his case. If he really cared about his legacy and the legitimacy of his records (which he does, look at his genuine celebrations when he reaches the milestones), then he would do anything to quell any rumor of substance abuse. But is he doing anything of the sorts? Nope. There are two possible reasons why he isn't doing anything to prove his innocence: 1. he's guilty, 2. he's stupid. Bonds has proven he isn't stupid by warming up to the media and building a more personable character the past season or two in anticipation of breaking Mays' record. It was a good PR move and he's reaping the benefits now. Now if he could only squash those nagging steroids questions...

Maybe he's neither stupid nor gulity,maybe he prefers to let the bat do his talking.I'm sorry but the way that man hits a baseball is truly a thing of beauty.Steroids might give you some size but can they give you the visual tracking ability that man has? I don't think so

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
What kind of an ignorant baseball fan would ever say that Barry Bonds only hits home runs? The guy is the only player in the freakin 500/500 club. If you don't know what the numbers stand for then don't even respond.

Yea but look at the stats from a year to year. When he first started and was REG. weight and Mass he put up average HR's but had good feilding and StolneBase numbers. BUT as his Mass BLEW up so did his HR's BUT his SB's went straight down with his feilding.

His EARLY sb's are his, BUT the HR's and other current stats are because he cheated.

If Pete Rose can't get into the hall, neither should Bonds.... EVER.

 

[Electric Amish]

In a word...


No Fvcking Way!

 

[NumbaJuan]

ya want one of the best here ya go

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
What kind of an ignorant baseball fan would ever say that Barry Bonds only hits home runs? The guy is the only player in the freakin 500/500 club. If you don't know what the numbers stand for then don't even respond.

Yea but look at the stats from a year to year. When he first started and was REG. weight and Mass he put up average HR's but had good feilding and StolneBase numbers. BUT as his Mass BLEW up so did his HR's BUT his SB's went straight down with his feilding.

His EARLY sb's are his, BUT the HR's and other current stats are because he cheated.

If Pete Rose can't get into the hall, neither should Bonds.... EVER.

You're overlooking the fact that people lose a few steps as they grow older. I'm pretty sure all the baseball players weren't as fast as they were in their 20s as they are in their late 30s. Bonds knew this too and changed his workout so that he could last longer in baseball by changing his shape, from a leadoff hitter to a power hitter. Whether he used steroids, I don't know. But I do know and Bonds knew that you aren't going to last long being a 35+ year old leadoff hitter that isn't fast enough to steal bases anymore.

 

[spaceman]

manny ramirez is the best pure hitter in the game.

 

[Looney]

Maybe he's neither stupid nor gulity,maybe he prefers to let the bat do his talking.I'm sorry but the way that man hits a baseball is truly a thing of beauty.

It's attitude like this that is destroying the game. How can it be a fair field if everybody is cheating? How can anybody stand a chance of entering the 'game' unless they cheat if it becomes so prevalent? And lets not forget that steroid uses like this is completely illegal. How would you feel if your kids were talented in baseball, and in any other generation might have made it natural, but thanks to the way the game is now and progressing, it becomes a MUST... so then they enter the path of doing illegal acts and destroying their bodies from overusage.

I'm not against steroids at all, i've used them in the past, and will probably continue to use them in the future. I know the risks, and i'll be the first to admit it's 'cheating'... i get 6 months of development in a month. But i'm not a pro, and when i cheat, i only cheat myself. Baseball is a competitive sport, you get paid according to how well you play, and how well you play is judged upon how well others are playing. If everybody else is cheating and getting an edge, you're not going to cut it unless you do the same. It's like in school, what if you were an A student, but half the class is cheating and getting As themselves. How would you feel about your achievement? And what about when it comes time to enter college or graduate school... you're trying to get in based on your natural talent, whereas others are getting it based upon cheating. You don't think that's going to hurt your chances? You don't think that will hurt the academic system?

There has to be an awareness more than him swinging the bat. If all you and other fans care for is that, then it's obvious where this game is headed, if it isn't already there. Good thing i'm not a baseball fan, and don't care what happens to it. But to those that do and are this apathetic about it, well, you're the one's that's destroying the game (and the players. These guys are doing very long cycles of steroids, much longer than competitive bodybuilders, to sustain their strength throughout a season).

 

[Looney]

Steroids might give you some size but can they give you the visual tracking ability that man has? I don't think so

It's ignorance like this that is making it acceptable. Nobody is saying he doesn't have any natural talent, of course he does. But there's absolutely NO doubt that steroids isn't giving him an edge, otherwise why would it become so prevalent?

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Hardcore

Steroids might give you some size but can they give you the visual tracking ability that man has? I don't think so

It's ignorance like this that is making it acceptable. Nobody is saying he doesn't have any natural talent, of course he does. But there's absolutely NO doubt that steroids isn't giving him an edge, otherwise why would it become so prevalent?

I see things differently.I feel that since science has given us the ability to improve physical performance it would be plain wasteful and stupid of us not to take advantage of it.Bonds is one helluva a baseball player,I wish the Red Sox could afford his services!

Btw,we wanna talk substance abuse let's discuss the Babe's etoh habits shall we?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: murphy55d
Bonds is the greatest player of the current era... hands down. Like someone said, you can't compare cross-generations. There's no way to tell what would happen if Babe Ruth played in today's game..or if Bonds played during his era. They are both legends, as far as I'm concerned.

Ruth wouldn't pass the Physical

John Kruk always did.

HAHAHA even with a whole pouch of redman in his mouth!!

 

[Fingolfin269]

What in the hell is wrong with some of you people? You act as if Barry is the only one in baseball using (allegedly) steroids. Are you really going to sit there and believe that none of the people on your favorite team are using steroids?

Look, I'm sorry to break this to you, but freaking go to a high school and test every one of those kids. Then go to colleges. Steroids IS baseball today. That's just a fact. Barry is doing nothing that no one else IN HIS GENERATION is doing in order to compete.

The fact is that no matter what Barry would have been better than everyone else in his generation with or without steroids. The guy was a hall of famer before any of you ever equated the words Bonds and steroids together. So wtf is your problem?

Stop blaming baseball's steroid problems on Barry. It's like saying that the Cubs lost the World Series because of a fan's interference and that the short stop botching an easy grounder had nothing to do with it.

 

[codeyf]

I'm gonna also go out on a limb and say.....No.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Hardcore

Steroids might give you some size but can they give you the visual tracking ability that man has? I don't think so

It's ignorance like this that is making it acceptable. Nobody is saying he doesn't have any natural talent, of course he does. But there's absolutely NO doubt that steroids isn't giving him an edge, otherwise why would it become so prevalent?

I see things differently.I feel that since science has given us the ability to improve physical performance it would be plain wasteful and stupid of us not to take advantage of it.Bonds is one helluva a baseball player,I wish the Red Sox could afford his services!

LOL and that's where the ignorance comes in. Like i've said, i've used steroids in the past, and will in the future. Visit any bodybuilding board like bodybuilding.com or anabolicmind.com and read the anabolic steroids sections (each site should have a FAQ in that section that deals with these issues), and you'll see how aware people are of the dangers of steroid use/abuse. They use it, but they certainly know what the side effects are, how dangerous it can be. Why else do you think it's a schedule III offense up there with cocaine, crack, heroine? A typical bodybuilder cycle is 4-6 weeks on, and at minimum equal amount off, and recommended twice as long off. These proball players take cycles that last an entire season (since when you come off it, you crash hard, because while on it, your body stops producing testosterone naturally).

I'm all for people using whatever they want, it's their body, so if they're dumb enough to destroy it, it's their own free will and choice. But when you have it becomes as prevalent as it is in baseball right now (and only getting worst), people are forced into it, because without it, they'll literally lose their contract to better players who are willing to take the risks. Not only that, but as it becomes more common, it becomes more acceptable, and you have it trickling down to mainstream use, and eventually children start using the stuff.


Anabolic Steroid Use Rising Among Teenage Girls; Stable Among Boys

Steroid Abuse By School Age Children
Scroll to the bottom and see how common it is.

And the numbers are much worst as you get into college, and of course the pro leagues now. There's going to be a day real soon, where it will be requirement to just compete on the same level as everybody else.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
The guy was a hall of famer before any of you ever equated the words Bonds and steroids together. So wtf is your problem?

WTF? He isn't in the HoF yet.

 

[Toasthead]

He is nowhere NEAR the greatest player of all time. Its almost impossible to compare players from one generation to another. I remember reading somewhere that if you were to make all decades equal, Babe Ruth would have hit something like 800 homer runs and Bonds would have like 500 right now. The Ball wasnt the only thing juiced n the late 90's.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ncircle
manny ramirez is the best pure hitter in the game.

He looks more like the best pure eater in Baseball

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
What in the hell is wrong with some of you people? You act as if Barry is the only one in baseball using (allegedly) steroids. Are you really going to sit there and believe that none of the people on your favorite team are using steroids?

Look, I'm sorry to break this to you, but freaking go to a high school and test every one of those kids. Then go to colleges. Steroids IS baseball today. That's just a fact. Barry is doing nothing that no one else IN HIS GENERATION is doing in order to compete.

The fact is that no matter what Barry would have been better than everyone else in his generation with or without steroids. The guy was a hall of famer before any of you ever equated the words Bonds and steroids together. So wtf is your problem?

Stop blaming baseball's steroid problems on Barry. It's like saying that the Cubs lost the World Series because of a fan's interference and that the short stop botching an easy grounder had nothing to do with it.

Do you deny that steroids dramatically increase muscle mass (Hint: THG has ingredients used to put on weight for cattle before they're slaughtered), and dramatically increase bat speed? Is it a fact that Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield received THG in the mail from Balco Labs (hint: Yes)? Is it ironic that all had the same trainer, one who has been prosecuted for illegally providing THG to his athletes? Is it fact that Bonds, from 1987-2000, averaged a .5719 SLG% for 12 full seasons played, and then posted: .863 in 2001, .799 in 2002, and .749 in 2003? Keep in mind that federal investigators have said that Bonds started receiving steroids from Balco in 2001.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Toasthead
He is nowhere NEAR the greatest player of all time. Its almost impossible to compare players from one generation to another. I remember reading somewhere that if you were to make all decades equal, Babe Ruth would have hit something like 800 homer runs and Bonds would have like 500 right now. The Ball wasnt the only thing juiced n the late 90's.

Also, don't forget that Ted Williams lost FIVE YEARS in his prime to WWII and Korean War.
From Here:

The myth is that if he hadn't lost five seasons to military service in World War II and Korea, Williams would have broken Babe Ruth's career home run record. Williams missed the 1943-45 seasons, all but six games of 1952 and all but 37 games of 1953, and he finished his career in 1960 with 521 home runs, 193 short of the Babe's 714 and third on the all-time list, behind Ruth and Jimmy Foxx, who hit 534. He's now tied for 12th.

Or how about:

From Here:

Mays? power was equivalent to Babe Ruth?s. Mays hit 35 or more homers 10 times, 40 or more six times, and more than 50 twice. He won five slugging titles, another MVP in 1965 (.317 average, 52 homers, and 112 RBI), and finished with 660 career homeruns. Give him back the two seasons he lost while in the service, and Mays would have easily beaten Ruth?s 714.

I think it would have to be Ruth for his 100 wins as a pitcher... second would be Mays or Williams.

 

[IndieSnob]

Originally posted by: NumbaJuan
ya want one of the best here ya go

Haha, righttttttt

Batting average of .276, OBP of .340 and OPS of .788 are not really that great of numbers at all. Just because he broke Gehrigs record never really meant sqaut to me. Sure maybe he worked harder to stay injury free, but Gehrig did it while spotting much better numbers (Average of .340) and had his OBP and OPS been statted at the time, his numbers would make Ripken look like a chump.

As to the subject, I'll go as far as to say he's one of the top hitters in the game of the past 30 years or so, but all around best hitter or best 'player', I'd have to say no. There's a few players I still consider to be better all around hitters, all around players, and lots of past era players that were better also. Take into account if he juiced himself, well add that to the fold also. And as far as attitude, the guys one of the most unlikeable SOB's in the sports world (save a few more). If I could go one day without having to hear about how he wants to break a 'white mans' record again, how he treats the media, and touts his Dad and Mays, I'd be happy.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
What in the hell is wrong with some of you people? You act as if Barry is the only one in baseball using (allegedly) steroids. Are you really going to sit there and believe that none of the people on your favorite team are using steroids?

Look, I'm sorry to break this to you, but freaking go to a high school and test every one of those kids. Then go to colleges. Steroids IS baseball today. That's just a fact. Barry is doing nothing that no one else IN HIS GENERATION is doing in order to compete.

The fact is that no matter what Barry would have been better than everyone else in his generation with or without steroids. The guy was a hall of famer before any of you ever equated the words Bonds and steroids together. So wtf is your problem?

Stop blaming baseball's steroid problems on Barry. It's like saying that the Cubs lost the World Series because of a fan's interference and that the short stop botching an easy grounder had nothing to do with it.

Do you deny that steroids dramatically increase muscle mass (Hint: THG has ingredients used to put on weight for cattle before they're slaughtered), and dramatically increase bat speed? Is it a fact that Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield received THG in the mail from Balco Labs (hint: Yes)? Is it ironic that all had the same trainer, one who has been prosecuted for illegally providing THG to his athletes? Is it fact that Bonds, from 1987-2000, averaged a .5719 SLG% for 12 full seasons played, and then posted: .863 in 2001, .799 in 2002, and .749 in 2003? Keep in mind that federal investigators have said that Bonds started receiving steroids from Balco in 2001.

Thanks for dancing around the freaking issue in my post. Did you just decide that was a great place to throw out some statistics about three players that ALLEGEDLY took steroids? You seem to count among the blind masses who think that only baseball players 'linked' to BALCO are the ones who use steroids. This is a stupid assumption. Steroids have been a part of 'strength' sports for a very long time. The only reason people want to bring up Barry's name so vehemently is because they DO NOT LIKE HIM AS A PERSON.

Why are none of you crying foul about McGwire's use of andro? Oh, it's because he used the Bull Durham cliche's with relative eloquence. All the while Sammy was blowing his fake kisses at you while swinging corked bats. But since everyone loved them for their great work of cliche we have no problem forgetting the andro and forgetting the cork.

Nothing in my post ever remotely touched on the subject of bat speed or strength. Only a moron would suggest that steroids/thg would not positively affect a person's ability to crush a baseball, a skull, or a monitor upon noting some of the severe reading comprehension skills evident on internet message boards.

 

[Fingolfin269]

If I could go one day without having to hear about how he wants to break a 'white mans' record

That quote was taken out of context and most of the time when it is referred to the question he was asked is left out. They can get away with that because people generally don't like Barry. His point was that he's tired of hearing about a white guy, who played only when other white guys were allowed to play, is considered the greatest to play the game.

I understand his point. I seriously doubt if there had been integration in the game back then that Ruth would have been considered in the same stature as he is today. Just look at today's MLB racial statistics and open the blind eye.

 

[erikistired]

he might have more roids raging through his veins than mark mcgwire did. so if by greatest you mean most roided up, then yes. otherwise, no.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
What in the hell is wrong with some of you people? You act as if Barry is the only one in baseball using (allegedly) steroids. Are you really going to sit there and believe that none of the people on your favorite team are using steroids?

Look, I'm sorry to break this to you, but freaking go to a high school and test every one of those kids. Then go to colleges. Steroids IS baseball today. That's just a fact. Barry is doing nothing that no one else IN HIS GENERATION is doing in order to compete.

The fact is that no matter what Barry would have been better than everyone else in his generation with or without steroids. The guy was a hall of famer before any of you ever equated the words Bonds and steroids together. So wtf is your problem?

Stop blaming baseball's steroid problems on Barry. It's like saying that the Cubs lost the World Series because of a fan's interference and that the short stop botching an easy grounder had nothing to do with it.

Do you deny that steroids dramatically increase muscle mass (Hint: THG has ingredients used to put on weight for cattle before they're slaughtered), and dramatically increase bat speed? Is it a fact that Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield received THG in the mail from Balco Labs (hint: Yes)? Is it ironic that all had the same trainer, one who has been prosecuted for illegally providing THG to his athletes? Is it fact that Bonds, from 1987-2000, averaged a .5719 SLG% for 12 full seasons played, and then posted: .863 in 2001, .799 in 2002, and .749 in 2003? Keep in mind that federal investigators have said that Bonds started receiving steroids from Balco in 2001.

Thanks for dancing around the freaking issue in my post. Did you just decide that was a great place to throw out some statistics about three players that ALLEGEDLY took steroids? You seem to count among the blind masses who think that only baseball players 'linked' to BALCO are the ones who use steroids. This is a stupid assumption. Steroids have been a part of 'strength' sports for a very long time. The only reason people want to bring up Barry's name so vehemently is because they DO NOT LIKE HIM AS A PERSON.

Why are none of you crying foul about McGwire's use of andro? Oh, it's because he used the Bull Durham cliche's with relative eloquence. All the while Sammy was blowing his fake kisses at you while swinging corked bats. But since everyone loved them for their great work of cliche we have no problem forgetting the andro and forgetting the cork.

Nothing in my post ever remotely touched on the subject of bat speed or strength. Only a moron would suggest that steroids/thg would not positively affect a person's ability to crush a baseball, a skull, or a monitor upon noting some of the severe reading comprehension skills evident on internet message boards.

i'm a barry bonds fan. always have been. even back in the day when he used to play for the pirates and lost to the braves.

so what really pisses me off, is that he probably did do the roids and it just gave his haters (most baseball fans) an excuse to hate him. but it is an excuse because they would have hated him regardless.

another thing, somewhere above i read someone say that bonds had a bad attitude and went on to say that Ty Cobbs was a "greater" player.

Ty Cobbs may have had better numbers with respect to his generation but a "great" player?? cobbs was a PIG. how ironic to complain of bonds bad "attitude" and then claim that ty cobbs was "greater".