Outside of his batting average there is not a real difference. He's hit in hit in the 40's on average for his entire career. But here's what shoots down this theory which is thrown out there so much. Because he has become a more patient and disciplined hitter he doesn't swing at garbage. Also what you have also failed to include is the fact that hrs have went up per player over the last 6-7 years as well. Many say the ball is a bit harder, because baseball felt the homerun attracted more fans. If you wanted to say roids could cause a guy to hit more hrs because he can hit farther that would make sense. Bat speed ain't got sh1t to do with roids. That is a bs arguement there. To make it even sound dumber just beacuse you can swing fast doesn't mean you can hit the ball. And Barry Bonds again has only struck more than 100 times in any season and that was his rookie year. So if your arguement of bat speed, :roll: , was true it would show some signs in his strike out numbers which it hasn't. All I can is just behold greatness. Because he is that, greatness.
Outside of his batting average there is not a real difference. He's hit in hit in the 40's on average for his entire career. But here's what shoots down this theory which is thrown out there so much. Because he has become a more patient and disciplined hitter he doesn't swing at garbage. Also what you have also failed to include is the fact that hrs have went up per player over the last 6-7 years as well. Many say the ball is a bit harder, because baseball felt the homerun attracted more fans. If you wanted to say roids could cause a guy to hit more hrs because he can hit farther that would make sense. Bat speed ain't got sh1t to do with roids. That is a bs arguement there. To make it even sound dumber just beacuse you can swing fast doesn't mean you can hit the ball. And Barry Bonds again has only struck more than 100 times in any season and that was his rookie year. So if your arguement of bat speed, :roll: , was true it would show some signs in his strike out numbers which it hasn't. All I can is just behold greatness. Because he is that, greatness.
+7 hrs/year even w/ exclusion of 2001 because the ball is harder? Please. That's a 17% improvement.
As for the bat speed argument. What if he had my bat speed? Same hand-eye coordination, timing, same everything but bat speed. You're telling me he would still put up those numbers if he couldn't hit it out of the infield? Bat speed and hand-eye coordination define hitters.
I don't understand how roids wouldn't increase bat speed.
He has awesome hand-eye coordination, so does Paul LoDuca. As does Helton, Ichiro, and most any good hitter. He's not the only person averaging less than 100 SO's a season. Hell, LoDuca averages less than 50.
So because of Clemens, Johnson, and few other ageless wonders, the old standard of prime doesn't exist? :roll:
Your argument would only be rational if there were more athletes competing at the professional level past the age of 40.
It may also be an issue of maintaing bat speed with Bonds. As players tend to get older, their bat speed tends to slow down. It's just a by-product of getting old.
Steroids allow players to train harder, longer, and recover faster. They also help avoid injuries, and keep muscles from degrading as rapidly.
Steroids would have EVERYTHING to do with bat speed.
It's not even worth your time Ophir. The Bonds apologists believed his lies when it was blatantly obvious he was using for years, now they will go with his "unknowingly took them" BS.
It's a shame that the guy took a first ballot HOF career, a pre-steroid career as a left fielder that put him among the greatest ever, and tarnished it to this magnitude. And it's not fair that he's singled out to this degree by the media and the government, but he's the one who will likely set the all time HR record with synthetic-hormone-aided longevity, I don't feel too sorry.
It's a shame that the guy took a first ballot HOF career, a pre-steroid career as a left fielder that put him among the greatest ever, and tarnished it to this magnitude. And it's not fair that he's singled out to this degree by the media and the government, but he's the one who will likely set the all time HR record with synthetic-hormone-aided longevity, I don't feel too sorry.
That's sorta my point. I don't think he was THAT great before the 2000 season. He may well have been a first ballot HOFer (I was a bit harsh before when I called him questionable HOFer), but he would have been considered with the Molitors, Berras, and Schmidts. NOT the Ruths, Williams, Mays, Mantles, etc.
edit: Also, it is worth my time because blind fanboism really irks me, as does devaluing the greatness of the game's legends. Greatest ever?! It stings just to think of it.
That and I have a couple of hours to kill/am in the mood for a decent argument.
I think the theory is that as you build more mass, you become slower. Taking roids will help you build mass, and allow you to hit the ball harder, but will not increase your bat speed, it not slow it down.
My question is, there are obviously more than a handful of players who take roids in mlb. Why aren't there more baseball players having numbers close to bonds? Sosa? He had a few good years, but high k, and his average is dropping. The only other player that I can think of who is comparable to bonds is pujols. So assuming that bonds is taking roids, it tells me that it takes more than roids to have the kind of seasons that bond has had.
My question is, there are obviously more than a handful of players who take roids in mlb. Why aren't there more baseball players having numbers close to bonds? Sosa? He had a few good years, but high k, and his average is dropping. The only other player that I can think of who is comparable to bonds is pujols. So assuming that bonds is taking roids, it tells me that it takes more than roids to have the kind of seasons that bond has had.
Molitors?? the ultimate COMPILER???
OMFG, he had FOUR HUNDRED FIFTY+ HOME RUNS and FOUR HUNDRED FIFTY + STOLEN BASES before the year 2000, 14 seasons.
He had 3 MVP's.
no, he was already well ahead of anything Molitor was ever capable of and if molitors career had been as short as barrys at that point, molitor would not have made the HOF.
Molitor, his entire career only hit 234 Homeruns.
you are SERIOUSLY comparing Bonds to MOLITOR??
it's morons like you that bring out the bonds apologists. i mean even a relatively neutral party can see how moronic that statement is.
Ok, Molitor was a bit of a stretch.
What I'm saying is that up to 1999 his numbers were:
.288AVE, 445HR, 2010H and 3 MVP's which don't mean all that much to me when comparing to all-time players (it's more of a relative thing IMO).
It stands to reason that his performance would have decreased after his 14th year in the league and would most likely have ended his career with ~550HR, +3000H, and MAYBE another MVP.
These are still NOT all-time great stats (esp. the BA) in comparison to Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Cobb, etc.
What goes into "hitting the ball harder?"
0.5(m)(v)^2
They are not using heavier bats. The bat is moving faster. Presumably muscles are helping, otherwise they wouldn't have transformed themselves from the toothpicks they used to be over the last 15 years.
Bonds was the greatest position player of his generation before steroids, I'm not really surprised that he's the greatest in the juiced era. He has the cumulative baseball experience of a 40 year old, and with steroids he can set his hormonal levels to whatever freakish level he wants in order to match the 25 year old juicers. Too bad he can't regenerate cartilage or he'd be all set.
Originally posted by: Ophir
Ok, Molitor was a bit of a stretch.
What I'm saying is that up to 1999 his numbers were:
.288AVE, 445HR, 2010H and 3 MVP's which don't mean all that much to me when comparing to all-time players (it's more of a relative thing IMO).
It stands to reason that his performance would have decreased after his 14th year in the league and would most likely have ended his career with ~550HR, +3000H, and MAYBE another MVP.
These are still NOT all-time great stats (esp. the BA) in comparison to Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Cobb, etc.
how many players in the HISTORY of baseball has hit more than 550 HomeRuns?
Oh ya, only 10. and Bonds is clearly an overall better baseball player than Palmero or Sosa.
14 of the top 54 career HR leaders are active players. players like McGriff, Griffey Jr, Juan Gon, ARod, Piazza, Galarraga, Thome, Thomas (none of whom, to me, appear to be on the Juice).
i think more is going on than just the Juice. we are clearly in an era of power.
i think more is going on than just the Juice. we are clearly in an era of power.
As he was a better player than McGwire. Excluding those and Eddie Murray, I'd take just about anyone of the top 18 on the HR list over him. Not to mention any of the many other pure hitters throughout history (Cobb, Hornsby, etc.).Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Ophir
Ok, Molitor was a bit of a stretch.
What I'm saying is that up to 1999 his numbers were:
.288AVE, 445HR, 2010H and 3 MVP's which don't mean all that much to me when comparing to all-time players (it's more of a relative thing IMO).
It stands to reason that his performance would have decreased after his 14th year in the league and would most likely have ended his career with ~550HR, +3000H, and MAYBE another MVP.
These are still NOT all-time great stats (esp. the BA) in comparison to Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Cobb, etc.
how many players in the HISTORY of baseball has hit more than 550 HomeRuns?
Oh ya, only 10. and Bonds is clearly an overall better baseball player than Palmero or Sosa.
Hell, I'd even take Todd Helton over pre-2000 Bonds. Look at the numbers.
Originally posted by: Ophir
As he was a better player than McGwire. Excluding those and Eddie Murray, I'd take just about anyone of the top 18 on the HR list over him. Not to mention any of the many other pure hitters throughout history (Cobb, Hornsby, etc.).Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Ophir
Ok, Molitor was a bit of a stretch.
What I'm saying is that up to 1999 his numbers were:
.288AVE, 445HR, 2010H and 3 MVP's which don't mean all that much to me when comparing to all-time players (it's more of a relative thing IMO).
It stands to reason that his performance would have decreased after his 14th year in the league and would most likely have ended his career with ~550HR, +3000H, and MAYBE another MVP.
These are still NOT all-time great stats (esp. the BA) in comparison to Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Cobb, etc.
how many players in the HISTORY of baseball has hit more than 550 HomeRuns?
Oh ya, only 10. and Bonds is clearly an overall better baseball player than Palmero or Sosa.
Hell, I'd even take Todd Helton over pre-2000 Bonds. Look at the numbers.
you are comparing a hitter that is hitting in COLORADO to barry bonds?
sheesh.
you really just want to hate bonds don't you.
helton last three seasons
66 HR at home
33 HR on the Road
380 BA at home
310 BA on the road
482 OBP at home
420 OBP on the road
i'm sure colorado has nothing to do with heltons slight advantage over Bonds pre 2000 numbers.
66 HR at home
33 HR on the Road
380 BA at home
310 BA on the road
482 OBP at home
420 OBP on the road
i'm sure colorado has nothing to do with heltons slight advantage over Bonds pre 2000 numbers.
Well, yeah. Bonds really bothers me. I would love to get on the Bond's bandwagon, but what he's done is tragic to me, not great. His attitude and outright lies on taking roids makes me despise him. I actually used to like the Bonds/Bonilla Pirates, but what he's done in the past 5 years combined with his arrogance have turned me completely.
BTW I'm comparing pre-2000 Bonds to Helton, and Helton looks like a better hitter. Definitely not better overall, but a better hitter.
how about a pre 2000 bonds vs a helton NOT in colorado?
helton is soo overrated it's not even funny. i'd take a chipper jones or even a David Wright of the Mets over Tod Helton.
i'd take a Pre 2000 Bonds over a helton also.
Bonds last three seasons
68 HR at home
68 HR on the Road
377 BA at home
339 BA on the road
592 OBP at home
559 OBP on the road
837 SLG at home
739 SLG on the road
Hitters are always better at home than on the road, regardless of where they play. I'd love to find Bond's splits pre-2000, but I'm sure the pattern would be quite similar.
I think we may have to agree to disagree.
edit: It seems like we left Classy in the dust long ago.
edit: It seems like we left Classy in the dust long ago.
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