Baptist preacher shot and killed in front of congregation this morning...

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

It's rude, but that's not reason for ban, I think. Other than that, he doesn't have a fucking clue about religion.

It's only offensive if YOU take offense. And, his point was that god didn't protect a priest from a bullet, how does that demonstrate ignorance about religion?

Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Invulnerability to harm doesn't count as a miracle? because I seem to remember this passage from the bible, "You can perform miracles".

 

[Greg04]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

It's rude, but that's not reason for ban, I think. Other than that, he doesn't have a fucking clue about religion.

It's only offensive if YOU take offense. And, his point was that god didn't protect a priest from a bullet, how does that demonstrate ignorance about religion?

Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Er...Godless appears to be an athiest, not a bigot. He asks a question that many Christians
ask at some point, and even Jesus must have asked himself at at least one point in his life.
The question provokes thoughtful introspection, insight, and hopefully answers, not bigotry.

The answer to his question is already known to all believers and unknowable to all athiests.

Question away Godless...those with faith will sit back and knowingly grin, those with questionable faith and fear, will fear the question and attack the questioner.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

It's rude, but that's not reason for ban, I think. Other than that, he doesn't have a fucking clue about religion.

It's only offensive if YOU take offense. And, his point was that god didn't protect a priest from a bullet, how does that demonstrate ignorance about religion?

Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Christianity, in EVERY case, preaches that god has a plan, that he will protect his flock from harm and will call you home when he wants you to come and not a moment sooner. Anyone that feels otherwise demonstrates ignorance bred by even more ignorance. It's all part of gods plan and the almighty cosmic muffin would never allow his plan to be messed up by a mere kook with a gun. God wanted that priest dead. It was his will.

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

And he's dead now, supposedly in a place free of pain, in the eternal presence of God, forever and ever and ever.

What's there to be upset about?



Anyway, out of the land of magic, it is unfortunate that people still try solving minor problems and disagreements with violence.

yeah why don't we kill you too, since its all pros and no cons

-.-

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

It's rude, but that's not reason for ban, I think. Other than that, he doesn't have a fucking clue about religion.

It's only offensive if YOU take offense. And, his point was that god didn't protect a priest from a bullet, how does that demonstrate ignorance about religion?

Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Christianity, in EVERY case, preaches that god has a plan, that he will protect his flock from harm and will call you home when he wants you to come and not a moment sooner. Anyone that feels otherwise demonstrates ignorance bred by even more ignorance. It's all part of gods plan and the almighty cosmic muffin would never allow his plan to be messed up by a mere kook with a gun. God wanted that priest dead. It was his will.

Yet Christ suffered and his disciples, and the NT speaks of persecution to the church. "God's plan" is understood as a macroscopic effect, that ultimately the prophecies will be fulfilled regardless of opposition. This is subjective however, since neither you nor I can possibly know until it happens (or doesn't). None of this means that every single event is intimately constructed and enacted by God.

I only mention bigotry and ignorance because this is hardly the first time I've seen such comments. The majority of them aren't intended to stimulate thought and discussion, but are crude attacks against something that isn't very well understood.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Taejin

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

And he's dead now, supposedly in a place free of pain, in the eternal presence of God, forever and ever and ever.

What's there to be upset about?



Anyway, out of the land of magic, it is unfortunate that people still try solving minor problems and disagreements with violence.

yeah why don't we kill you too, since its all pros and no cons

-.-

To live is [in the service of] Christ, to die is gain.

What a horrific thing for this pastor's family, friends and congregation. I'm glad they kept the shooter from offing himself so he can stand trial. I hope his reasoning for the action is published sometime; I can't fathom why anybody would attempt to do something like this.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Greg04
Question away Godless...those with faith will sit back and knowingly grin, those with questionable faith and fear, will fear the question and attack the questioner.

Please don't make assumptions like this. Taking offense to something and responding does not indicate fear or ad hominem. In either case, it is not right to assume that those who challenge a statement or belief are fearful or hateful. My mention off bigotry had everything to do with how the comment appeared, but Godless is free to clarify if it wasn't inflammatory.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Hacp
If the parishioners had their own guns, the gunman would never have had the chance to get the shot off.

The only way to stop gun violence in this country is to arm every man, woman and child.

:laugh:

 

[Greg04]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Greg04
Question away Godless...those with faith will sit back and knowingly grin, those with questionable faith and fear, will fear the question and attack the questioner.

Please don't make assumptions like this. Taking offense to something and responding does not indicate fear or ad hominem. In either case, it is not right to assume that those who challenge a statement or belief are fearful or hateful. My mention off bigotry had everything to do with how the comment appeared, but Godless is free to clarify if it wasn't inflammatory.

Pot, the kettle is calling. You took offense to Godless' post and reacted with fear.

You wrote, "Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry."

An alternative approach would have been to engage Godless and ask him to clarify his intent.

Instead, you labeled him, and *all people* who would dare pose the question, ignorant, bread by bigotry. And, you put the onus on him to correct *your* knee-jerk impression. That is ignorance per se: You admittedly don't know his intent, but will allow for correction if wrong. How gracious 🙂.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Greg04

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: dquan97

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Where's your God now, father?

vote for a BAN! Please!?!?!!

whats wrong with it? 😕

It's rude, but that's not reason for ban, I think. Other than that, he doesn't have a fucking clue about religion.

It's only offensive if YOU take offense. And, his point was that god didn't protect a priest from a bullet, how does that demonstrate ignorance about religion?

Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Er...Godless appears to be an athiest, not a bigot. He asks a question that many Christians
ask at some point, and even Jesus must have asked himself at at least one point in his life.
The question provokes thoughtful introspection, insight, and hopefully answers, not bigotry.

The answer to his question is already known to all believers and unknowable to all athiests.

Question away Godless...those with faith will sit back and knowingly grin, those with questionable faith and fear, will fear the question and attack the questioner.

Yeah, I've gathered that GodlessAstronomer is an atheist. However, even atheists should know when a comment would be in severely bad taste. If he was indeed trying to promote a theological debate, that isn't the way to go about it no matter what side you are on.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Greg04

Pot, the kettle is calling.

Your usage of the pot/kettle idiom is odd. Please correct it. Use the more common form. Thanks.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: pontifex
but, but, but...that's not possible. no one brings guns to church. no needs guns anywhere...if you're in an area that is that bad, maybe you should move...

:roll: :roll:

Note that no one had a gun...except the gunman and he was subdued by people without guns. Even if someone had a gun the chances of this being prevented are slim to none.

He was subdued only after his gun jammed. Had his gun not jammed, he would very likely have killed or severely injured at least one of the people who were attempting to subdue him.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
By the time you realized he had a gun it would be too late and then you'd have a shootout in a crowded room with more chance of hitting someone else with a stray bullet.

Less chance of a stray bullet hitting someone than if the police were there. 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person, while only 2% of shooting by citizens kill an innocent person. (C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

ZV

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Greg04
...

"Anyone" was exaggeration. Everyone loves pizza, right?

I said it "demonstrates" bigotry. There is a difference between appearing to be a bigot and actually being a bigot. A made an assumption that he was demonstrating bigotry and thus appearing to be a bigot. Woop-dee-doo! This is not the only time I've seen comments from him that appeared that way.

Also, please be aware that you must make an assumption about my level of fear and offense in reaction to the comment. Remember that before you reference the pot/kettle thing again.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Christianity, in EVERY case, preaches that god has a plan, that he will protect his flock from harm and will call you home when he wants you to come and not a moment sooner. Anyone that feels otherwise demonstrates ignorance bred by even more ignorance. It's all part of gods plan and the almighty cosmic muffin would never allow his plan to be messed up by a mere kook with a gun. God wanted that priest dead. It was his will.

You haven't read much actual theology, have you? Rudolf Bultmann argues strongly against the "god has a plan" variety of Christianity, as do many other noted theologians (e.g. John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, etc).

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Hacp
If the parishioners had their own guns, the gunman would never have had the chance to get the shot off.

The only way to stop gun violence in this country is to arm every man, woman and child.

:laugh:

Don't forget the bears. Gotta arm the bears...:laugh:

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: pontifex
but, but, but...that's not possible. no one brings guns to church. no needs guns anywhere...if you're in an area that is that bad, maybe you should move...

:roll: :roll:

Note that no one had a gun...except the gunman and he was subdued by people without guns. Even if someone had a gun the chances of this being prevented are slim to none.

He was subdued only after his gun jammed. Had his gun not jammed, he would very likely have killed or severely injured at least one of the people who were attempting to subdue him.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
By the time you realized he had a gun it would be too late and then you'd have a shootout in a crowded room with more chance of hitting someone else with a stray bullet.

Less chance of a stray bullet hitting someone than if the police were there. 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person, while only 2% of shooting by citizens kill an innocent person. (C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

ZV

Blah blah blah blah blah...fact is you don't know that.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Christianity, in EVERY case, preaches that god has a plan, that he will protect his flock from harm and will call you home when he wants you to come and not a moment sooner. Anyone that feels otherwise demonstrates ignorance bred by even more ignorance. It's all part of gods plan and the almighty cosmic muffin would never allow his plan to be messed up by a mere kook with a gun. God wanted that priest dead. It was his will.

You haven't read much actual theology, have you? Rudolf Bultmann argues strongly against the "god has a plan" variety of Christianity, as do many other noted theologians (e.g. John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, etc).

ZV

ROFL!! Bultmann's method of getting away from the "God has a plan" mentality was to call the gospels pure bupkis. I agree with him, they are pure bupkis. But in order to believe in Bultmann you essentially have to disbelieve in the bible. Easy for me to do, easy for anyone with a brain to do, pretty damn tough for Christians to do. This is a Baptist minister we're talking about and Baptists most assuredly do not subscribe to Bultmann's view of the gospels as mere fantasy storytelling. Come to think of it, what sects of Christianity do subscribe to Bultmann's ideas? Bultmann is big among theological debaters practicing mental masturbation, but he's pretty much an outcast among actual practicing Christians. If the only way to balance out the numerous contradictions in the bible is to discredit the entire book as allegory then what exactly is the Christian religion based on?

 

[Leafy]

Originally posted by: videogames101
Maybe you ought to be a little more thoughtful before spewing ignorance about a tragedy.

Have a week off to think about it.

Hayabusa Rider Senior AnandTech moderator.

Maybe you ought to pay more attention before ironically spouting your ignorance about a tragedy.

In 2008, an estimated 55198553 people died (1). That's about three every two seconds. The only thing distinguishing about this story is that it was a church pastor who was killed during service.

From an atheistic perspective, this story has no more significance than if a plumber was busy fixing pipes when it burst and decapitated him. The only difference is the occupation.

What is especially enraging, however, is the actions of the believers:

"People were down on their knees and on the floor, screaming and praying."

[...] and that church members did not recognize the gunman.

Instead of calling for an ambulance, or identifying the gunman, they (from an atheistic perspective) wasted their time.

I don't see how videogames101 is incorrect here. If Christians are so gung-ho about going to Heaven and expect unlimited bliss when they arrive, and they so fervently obsess over getting into it, pouring in hundreds and hundreds of hours of work into it. They also use the belief as a crutch later - "Well he's in a better place now."

If they genuinely believed it, then what would entail was that they would be happy that they died. Since they're not happy, the only relevant causes are that they don't genuinely believe or that they aren't mad that they're dead, but something peripheral (selfish).

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Because religion, at least Christianity in this case, doesn't make you invulnerable to harm. Never has, never will, never claimed. Anyone who makes a statement, as made above, demonstrates ignorance bred by bigotry.

Wrong. Read your bible closer.

Mark 16:15-18 (2)
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Luke 21:16-19 (3)
You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

This is also contradicted by the fact that most christians preach that God has a plan for all of us, and there is some scriptural support:

Jeremiah 1:5 (4)
Before I formed you in the womb I [knew|chose] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Originally posted by: Greg04
The answer to his question is already known to all believers and unknowable to all athiests.

Question away Godless...those with faith will sit back and knowingly grin, those with questionable faith and fear, will fear the question and attack the questioner.

Well that's a nice way to cover up a lie. "We know the answer, but we're too stuck-up and narcissistic to give you the answer."


(1) https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...ok/geos/xx.html#People
(2) http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...%2016:15-18&version=31
(3) http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...021:16-19;&version=31;
(4) http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...emiah%201:5&version=31

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Christianity, in EVERY case, preaches that god has a plan, that he will protect his flock from harm and will call you home when he wants you to come and not a moment sooner. Anyone that feels otherwise demonstrates ignorance bred by even more ignorance. It's all part of gods plan and the almighty cosmic muffin would never allow his plan to be messed up by a mere kook with a gun. God wanted that priest dead. It was his will.

You haven't read much actual theology, have you? Rudolf Bultmann argues strongly against the "god has a plan" variety of Christianity, as do many other noted theologians (e.g. John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, etc).

ZV

ROFL!! Bultmann's method of getting away from the "God has a plan" mentality was to call the gospels pure bupkis. I agree with him, they are pure bupkis. But in order to believe in Bultmann you essentially have to disbelieve in the bible. Easy for me to do, easy for anyone with a brain to do, pretty damn tough for Christians to do. This is a Baptist minister we're talking about and Baptists most assuredly do not subscribe to Bultmann's view of the gospels as mere fantasy storytelling. Come to think of it, what sects of Christianity do subscribe to Bultmann's ideas? Bultmann is big among theological debaters practicing mental masturbation, but he's pretty much an outcast among actual practicing Christians. If the only way to balance out the numerous contradictions in the bible is to discredit the entire book as allegory then what exactly is the Christian religion based on?

I usually disagree with you on most things but this was a very accurate post. 🙂 And it gave me a GREAT excuse to hassle Zenmervolt, who is posting from the other room. 😀

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: pontifex
but, but, but...that's not possible. no one brings guns to church. no needs guns anywhere...if you're in an area that is that bad, maybe you should move...

:roll: :roll:

Note that no one had a gun...except the gunman and he was subdued by people without guns. Even if someone had a gun the chances of this being prevented are slim to none.

He was subdued only after his gun jammed. Had his gun not jammed, he would very likely have killed or severely injured at least one of the people who were attempting to subdue him.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
By the time you realized he had a gun it would be too late and then you'd have a shootout in a crowded room with more chance of hitting someone else with a stray bullet.

Less chance of a stray bullet hitting someone than if the police were there. 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person, while only 2% of shooting by citizens kill an innocent person. (C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

ZV

Blah blah blah blah blah...fact is you don't know that.

So you think he would have been less dangerous with a functioning firearm? Because all I said was that he likely would have caused more death/injury. Unless your position is that the firearm isn't dangerous, then I don't see how you can disagree.

As for the second part, yes, I do know it. That's how I was able to offer a scholarly citation.

ZV

 

[geno]

yikes.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: pontifex
but, but, but...that's not possible. no one brings guns to church. no needs guns anywhere...if you're in an area that is that bad, maybe you should move...

:roll: :roll:

Note that no one had a gun...except the gunman and he was subdued by people without guns. Even if someone had a gun the chances of this being prevented are slim to none.

He was subdued only after his gun jammed. Had his gun not jammed, he would very likely have killed or severely injured at least one of the people who were attempting to subdue him.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
By the time you realized he had a gun it would be too late and then you'd have a shootout in a crowded room with more chance of hitting someone else with a stray bullet.

Less chance of a stray bullet hitting someone than if the police were there. 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person, while only 2% of shooting by citizens kill an innocent person. (C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws?. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

ZV

Blah blah blah blah blah...fact is you don't know that.

right, because after i've just killed someone, i'm going to let someone try to subdue me...
i'll agree that there is a chance that he would have been subdued (without any further shootings) by unarmed people had his gun not jammed, but that chance is very, very slim.

my original comments were more about the people on this forum who think they are safe or think that places like a church are completely safe from anything like this every happening. what do the people who spout things like "don't go to unsafe areas" or "it's a gun free zone" have to say when stuff like this happens?

 

[IEC]

Let's see:

12% Christian apologetics
22% militant atheist nonsense
16% idiotic posts
20% troll posts
30% expressing condolences

103593% made up statistics

Sound about right for this thread?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I'm not being facetious, this is probably a pretty good time to die if you have to and you're a preacher. Should help a bit at the moment of judgement, I would think.

...what?

Also,

Thought 1: You mean the bible didn't stop the bullet?
Thought 2: Probably a lover's spat.

 

[MercenaryYoureFired]

So the people who don't believe in God go up, up, and out of their way to make it painfully clear that they don't believe in said God, entity, or w/e they want to refer to it as. So here's an idea to all those weirdos who seem to worry far too much about other people's beliefs.

If you don't believe in God, GOOD for fucking you, I'm glad you think you're smart enough to know about all of the logical fallacies the idea of God seems to imply, but also can't comprehend the simplest of problems in our known, physical universe. But OK, God is a LOLFEST.