Bailout bill failing in House

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

I didn't know that European countries hold more US debt then China
I did a quick sum and it's 558 billion dollars :Q


no wonder you guys can run these massive deficits

as % GDP we're actually a bit better off than ze germans and way better than belgium (not that belgium is huge, my city almost matches it's GDP)

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I guess some people missed this...

Originally posted by: bamacre
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com...ongressmen-doomed.html

Those who fear losing their seats were the ones voting "no."

i posted in another thread that the republicans were much more vulnerable than the democrats this election and so you'd expect them to vote no to keep their phoney-baloney jobs. seems like this bears me out.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Special KThey are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

they are also in a perfect position to be the some of the few people who really understand what is going on and what can be done to fix it.


it's like, there are two competing theories as to why CEOs and other insiders consistently make much higher returns than the market as a whole. 1) they could be trading on insider information or 2) they probably know better how to evaluate and what to do with the public information than the average trader. the real answer is probably some of each.

 

[IcePickFreak]

So to get to the really important part.. with Wamu in trouble, does this mean I won't get the standard 3 mailings this week from them for CCs? I get one from them every other day, and sometimes two in the same day, and have been for at least a year. Figure if they do that to even say 1million people, 3 letters a week is over 1mil a week in postage alone... for people who have never done any business with them. I'll be sure to shed a tear when I grab my mail this evening.

And just my .02¢ - which is really worth .00001¢ and falling - I think the people who are screaming the sky is falling are people who work in the financial sector and fear they may actually have to work at some point if things continue downwards. I say let it burn, I'll survive. Things need to be taken down a few notches anyway, we've somehow converted far too many "wants" into "needs."

edit: Also, since it was mentioned early in this thread - the bill did NOT pass, I DO get paid monthly, it IS the next day, I DID get my check, and I DID get my money.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: freegeeks

I didn't know that European countries hold more US debt then China
I did a quick sum and it's 558 billion dollars :Q


no wonder you guys can run these massive deficits

as % GDP we're actually a bit better off than ze germans and way better than belgium (not that belgium is huge, my city almost matches it's GDP)

the big difference is that most of our debt (99%) is domestic because of the high personal saving rates. This means that interest payed by the govt. is flowing back to ze Belgians. This is not the case for the 1,5 trillion dollar US debt which is external. At the end of the 80's our debt was a whopping 128% of GDP (thank you shitty govt. !!!). It's down now to 84% because we have a balanced or positive budget since 2001.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: freegeeks

I didn't know that European countries hold more US debt then China
I did a quick sum and it's 558 billion dollars :Q


no wonder you guys can run these massive deficits

as % GDP we're actually a bit better off than ze germans and way better than belgium (not that belgium is huge, my city almost matches it's GDP)

the big difference is that most of our debt (99%) is domestic because of the high personal saving rates. This means that interest payed by the govt. is flowing back to ze Belgians. This is not the case for the 1,5 trillion dollar US debt which is external. At the end of the 80's our debt was a whopping 128% of GDP (thank you shitty govt. !!!). It's down now to 84% because we have a balanced or positive budget since 2001.

About 1/2 of the US debt is money the goverment owes itself(SS and such). And the rest is owned by investors, most of which reside in the US. OUr current debt to gdp is about 65% and likely to go much higher if the bailout get passed.

 

[SlickSnake]

Since I started posting in this thread, and virtually no one seems to have noticed or commented on my posts, this Time/CNN link confirms that the government should not bail out these risky speculative types of financial investments like mortgage-backed securities and mortgage hedge funds. And they also agree with me that these financial companies need to file bankruptcy for their badly miscalculated financial risks they chose to take as a private company. Failed hedge funds are not the responsibility of the taxpayers to bail out. This is financial gambling, and they LOST pure and simple. The taxpayers did not ask them to take these large risks, nor are the taxpayers on the hook to cover these investors huge hedge fund losses.

Let Risk-Taking Financial Institutions Fail

And these little tidbits from Michael Moore seems to also hit the rusty nail squarely on the Republikrats empty square heads, too.

The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore

Congratulations, Corporate Crime Fighters! Coup Averted for Three Days! ...from Michael Moore

Michael Moore .com

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Since I started posting in this thread, and virtually no one seems to have noticed or commented on my posts, this Time/CNN link confirms that the government should not bail out these risky speculative types of financial investments like mortgage-backed securities and mortgage hedge funds. And they also agree with me that these financial companies need to file bankruptcy for their badly miscalculated financial risks they chose to take as a private company. Failed hedge funds are not the responsibility of the taxpayers to bail out. This is financial gambling, and they LOST pure and simple. The taxpayers did not ask them to take these large risks, nor are the taxpayers on the hook to cover these investors huge hedge fund losses.

Let Risk-Taking Financial Institutions Fail

And these little tidbits from Michael Moore seems to also hit the rusty nail squarely on the Republikrats empty square heads, too.

The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore

Congratulations, Corporate Crime Fighters! Coup Averted for Three Days! ...from Michael Moore

Michael Moore .com

So what's the alternative?

Michael Moore is a fucking idiot. He put this all down to medical costs? Is he stupid or insane. Surely both.

The fact that all you've got is the rantings of a fat idiot only shows you've got no real leg to stand on.

I wouldn't trust Michael Moore to run a Dairy Queen.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Special K
I am currently undecided about the bill. What I don't like about it is the way in which it is being presented. Typically when someone tries to force you to make a big decision in a hurry, especially when it involves a large sum of money, they will typically gain something from the deal at your expense. One representative from Indiana used the analogy of a used car salesman. When the salesman gets pushy and insists that you must make the purchase "today" or the deal will be gone forever, typically that means you will get shafted by going along with the deal.

Maybe this bill is what's necessary to lead the country out of the current financial mess, and maybe it isn't. I don't trust Bernanke or Paulson because they likely have very close ties to Wall Street and I think they would put what's best for their friends before what's best for America. Wall Street seems to have an insatiable thirst for money at any cost, and I don't think that will ever change. Specific to the bill, I also don't see why buying these mortgage-backed assets won't simply cause the banks to load up on the next big get rich quick scheme. We will then be facing this situation again in ~10 years when the next asset bubble bursts.

I am not an economics major, but I believe the term "information asymmetry" applies in this situation. The average voter may not understand the complex issues behind this bill, but I see no reason to blindly put our trust in Paulson, Bernanke, etc. They are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

You summed up my feelings perfectly. I admit I don't understand the whole issue but I don't trust those telling us what we need either. The way it's being pushed (forced) on us really bothers me.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Since I started posting in this thread, and virtually no one seems to have noticed or commented on my posts, this Time/CNN link confirms that the government should not bail out these risky speculative types of financial investments like mortgage-backed securities and mortgage hedge funds. And they also agree with me that these financial companies need to file bankruptcy for their badly miscalculated financial risks they chose to take as a private company. Failed hedge funds are not the responsibility of the taxpayers to bail out. This is financial gambling, and they LOST pure and simple. The taxpayers did not ask them to take these large risks, nor are the taxpayers on the hook to cover these investors huge hedge fund losses.

Let Risk-Taking Financial Institutions Fail

And these little tidbits from Michael Moore seems to also hit the rusty nail squarely on the Republikrats empty square heads, too.

The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore

Congratulations, Corporate Crime Fighters! Coup Averted for Three Days! ...from Michael Moore

Michael Moore .com

So what's the alternative?

Michael Moore is a fucking idiot. He put this all down to medical costs? Is he stupid or insane. Surely both.

The fact that all you've got is the rantings of a fat idiot only shows you've got no real leg to stand on.

I wouldn't trust Michael Moore to run a Dairy Queen.

I could have posted links to a 1000 sites that agree with no investment bank fund bailouts and you would say the same thing. Just admit you are a shill for some failed or failing investment bank or losing money from some failed stock or hedge fund you lost your silk shirt in and stop promoting a bad deal for the taxpayers at large like some narrow minded self important financial whore, ok? Don't you have a game of golf or a wine and cheese tasting you need to get back to? Moore is simply pointing out ONE reason for the fact people can't pay their bills. Health care costs are the number ONE reason people default on their bills.

Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.

Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?

It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.

He's right, and the facts reported by such companies as the credit repair firms back him up. Even with health care coverage, you can expect to pay up to 50% or more of the total bills you get from healthcare, including emergency healthcare. You somehow think if you or a family member gets a heart attack or has a wreck or some other accident and loses their job with or without healthcare, you are still going to be able to pay all your bills or theirs? What fairytail land do you live in, Canada or the UK where you have universal health coverage no matter what?

If a 2 income family who buys a house and 2 cars loses one or 2 income streams to a health emergency accident or loss of job and they need both incomes to pay their mortgage and bills, what in the hell do you think happens to the house and all their bills when they can't pay them? Now you want those same financially overburdened people who can't even afford gas, the TAXPAYERS, to bail out retarded banking robber barons who gambled financially and LOST so they can keep making their second and third vacation house and Lear jet and ocean yacht payments?

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Special KThey are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

they are also in a perfect position to be the some of the few people who really understand what is going on and what can be done to fix it.


it's like, there are two competing theories as to why CEOs and other insiders consistently make much higher returns than the market as a whole. 1) they could be trading on insider information or 2) they probably know better how to evaluate and what to do with the public information than the average trader. the real answer is probably some of each.

Who is an "insider"? True insider trading is illegal. Also, what proof do you have that CEO's consistently beat the market on a long-term basis?