Bailout bill failing in House

Page 26 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Genx87
Whether or not republicans cried like girls and changed their vote because a bitter old liberal proved yet again she cant lead is irrelevant. Democrats could have passed this without much help from republicans.

So while they play partisan politics our credit markets continue their spiral downward.

The bailout is unpopular with the public. Why is it the responsibility of the Dem's to fall on their swords? So the Rep's don't have to? :confused:

it's not falling on your sword if you L-I-S-T-E-N to the people that pay your wages and gave you your job.

Hold on a sec... I'm on the fence on the bailout. I freely admit I don't know enough about economics to have a strong opinion one way or the other. I'm just pointing out that those who are in favor of it are blaming Pelosi and the (D)'s for the failure.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

If you want to have a conversation about economics, making statements like that don't help.

Nobody is printing any money.

Serious question: If they aren't printing it then where are they going to get $1T from? Are other countries willing to lend us that kinda money right now? Also, how in the world do you deliver that kind of money? I assume most of its electronic but the money has to be physically deposited somewhere doesn't it?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

If you want to have a conversation about economics, making statements like that don't help.

Nobody is printing any money.

Serious question: If they aren't printing it then where are they going to get $1T from? Are other countries willing to lend us that kinda money right now? Also, how in the world do you deliver that kind of money? I assume most of its electronic but the money has to be physically deposited somewhere doesn't it?

The 700BN would come from worldwide investors.

It's electronic, nobody has to "hold" bills.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

Since when does the US print money?




Que?


http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=798161

So when you use your credit card and not cash you are printing money right?
So when you get a car loan, the bank gives you cash, and you give them an IOU, you just printed money?
So when you buy a house, the bank gives you cash, and you give them an IOU mortgage, you just printed money?

Hell, everyone is printing money, why do you care if the govt does it? They are selling treasury bills in exchange for cash.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

If you want to have a conversation about economics, making statements like that don't help.

Nobody is printing any money.

Serious question: If they aren't printing it then where are they going to get $1T from? Are other countries willing to lend us that kinda money right now? Also, how in the world do you deliver that kind of money? I assume most of its electronic but the money has to be physically deposited somewhere doesn't it?

The 700BN would come from worldwide investors.

It's electronic, nobody has to "hold" bills.

So in theory we (as in the US Gov) wouldn't need to print money, just push a few buttons and our account is plus whatever sum we wanted to add?

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

If you want to have a conversation about economics, making statements like that don't help.

Nobody is printing any money.

Serious question: If they aren't printing it then where are they going to get $1T from? Are other countries willing to lend us that kinda money right now? Also, how in the world do you deliver that kind of money? I assume most of its electronic but the money has to be physically deposited somewhere doesn't it?

The 700BN would come from worldwide investors.

It's electronic, nobody has to "hold" bills.

So in theory we (as in the US Gov) wouldn't need to print money, just push a few buttons and our account is plus whatever sum we wanted to add?

Somebody else has to buy the bond, they deposit money into the system.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

If you want to have a conversation about economics, making statements like that don't help.

Nobody is printing any money.

Serious question: If they aren't printing it then where are they going to get $1T from? Are other countries willing to lend us that kinda money right now? Also, how in the world do you deliver that kind of money? I assume most of its electronic but the money has to be physically deposited somewhere doesn't it?

The 700BN would come from worldwide investors.

It's electronic, nobody has to "hold" bills.

So in theory we (as in the US Gov) wouldn't need to print money, just push a few buttons and our account is plus whatever sum we wanted to add?

Somebody else has to buy the bond, they deposit money into the system.

Really? And all this time I figured we would just print up another 70 Billion... :p

Almost everything is done electronically - I'm sure China would love to give us another 70Billon. They will just keep collecting interest on the debt as usual. We'll sell out again.

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.


 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,055
33,101
136
Originally posted by: ericlp

Really? And all this time I figured we would just print up another 70 Billion... :p

Almost everything is done electronically - I'm sure China would love to give us another 70Billon. They will just keep collecting interest on the debt as usual. We'll sell out again.

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.

Foreign holdings only.

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
I am currently undecided about the bill. What I don't like about it is the way in which it is being presented. Typically when someone tries to force you to make a big decision in a hurry, especially when it involves a large sum of money, they will typically gain something from the deal at your expense. One representative from Indiana used the analogy of a used car salesman. When the salesman gets pushy and insists that you must make the purchase "today" or the deal will be gone forever, typically that means you will get shafted by going along with the deal.

Maybe this bill is what's necessary to lead the country out of the current financial mess, and maybe it isn't. I don't trust Bernanke or Paulson because they likely have very close ties to Wall Street and I think they would put what's best for their friends before what's best for America. Wall Street seems to have an insatiable thirst for money at any cost, and I don't think that will ever change. Specific to the bill, I also don't see why buying these mortgage-backed assets won't simply cause the banks to load up on the next big get rich quick scheme. We will then be facing this situation again in ~10 years when the next asset bubble bursts.

I am not an economics major, but I believe the term "information asymmetry" applies in this situation. The average voter may not understand the complex issues behind this bill, but I see no reason to blindly put our trust in Paulson, Bernanke, etc. They are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: Special K
I am currently undecided about the bill. What I don't like about it is the way in which it is being presented. Typically when someone tries to force you to make a big decision in a hurry, especially when it involves a large sum of money, they will typically gain something from the deal at your expense. One representative from Indiana used the analogy of a used car salesman. When the salesman gets pushy and insists that you must make the purchase "today" or the deal will be gone forever, typically that means you will get shafted by going along with the deal.

Maybe this bill is what's necessary to lead the country out of the current financial mess, and maybe it isn't. I don't trust Bernanke or Paulson because they likely have very close ties to Wall Street and I think they would put what's best for their friends before what's best for America. Wall Street seems to have an insatiable thirst for money at any cost, and I don't think that will ever change. Specific to the bill, I also don't see why buying these mortgage-backed assets won't simply cause the banks to load up on the next big get rich quick scheme. We will then be facing this situation again in ~10 years when the next asset bubble bursts.

I am not an economics major, but I believe the term "information asymmetry" applies in this situation. The average voter may not understand the complex issues behind this bill, but I see no reason to blindly put our trust in Paulson, Bernanke, etc. They are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

Paulson used to be the CEO of Goldman Sachs, so yes, he has ties....lots of ties.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,933
3
81
Originally posted by: Special K
I am currently undecided about the bill. What I don't like about it is the way in which it is being presented. Typically when someone tries to force you to make a big decision in a hurry, especially when it involves a large sum of money, they will typically gain something from the deal at your expense. One representative from Indiana used the analogy of a used car salesman. When the salesman gets pushy and insists that you must make the purchase "today" or the deal will be gone forever, typically that means you will get shafted by going along with the deal.

Maybe this bill is what's necessary to lead the country out of the current financial mess, and maybe it isn't. I don't trust Bernanke or Paulson because they likely have very close ties to Wall Street and I think they would put what's best for their friends before what's best for America. Wall Street seems to have an insatiable thirst for money at any cost, and I don't think that will ever change. Specific to the bill, I also don't see why buying these mortgage-backed assets won't simply cause the banks to load up on the next big get rich quick scheme. We will then be facing this situation again in ~10 years when the next asset bubble bursts.

I am not an economics major, but I believe the term "information asymmetry" applies in this situation. The average voter may not understand the complex issues behind this bill, but I see no reason to blindly put our trust in Paulson, Bernanke, etc. They are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

What you are looking for and what is clearly missing is transparency....
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: JS80
Sorry, Bush doesn't qualify, he doesn't give a shit what his party thinks - he does what he thinks is right. He gets off with a slap on the wrist.

Pelosi on the other hand is a partisan wise and beautiful woman whore who needs to be publicly humiliated and guillotined.

Ignorant and dispicable both, JS80. And that's from someone who is not a fan of how Pelosi has handled this. Bush doing 'what he thinks is right', you must be on Mars.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: ericlp

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.

IIRC China holds about a trillion in our debt.

Our borrowing can't be sustained. Among other things inflation becomes inevitable IMO.

And that will lead to people not wanting to lend so much - actually, just their anticipating inflation can have the same effect - and then we have to pay higher rates, etc.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Did I just read that the dollar is gaining huge on the Euro today? Could that possibly be because we decided not to print another $1 Trillion of our fake money?

No, that's the exact opposite. The dollar is gaining because people are betting the bailout will be passed.

Dollar surges vs. rivals on rescue-plan hopes

You people need to understand how things work better. First of all, we don't print more fake money, we just create more supply in USD. In the end, simply having more supply of USD do not necessary reduce the value of USD. As long as the fundamental of the US economy is strong, and USD based investment is attractive, USD will have a high demand and thus high value.

Even if you don't "print" more USD, if all US bank fails and no one in the world wanna buy US debt, or US investments, USD will tank big time anyway.

So you people need to stop b!tching and get the mess fixed as soon as possible.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,055
33,101
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ericlp

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.

IIRC China holds about a trillion in our debt.

Our borrowing can't be sustained. Among other things inflation becomes inevitable IMO.

And that will lead to people not wanting to lend so much - actually, just their anticipating inflation can have the same effect - and then we have to pay higher rates, etc.

I posted the table...

China, Mainland 518.7

Our current debt to gdp level doesn't even approach most of Europe's. Deciding that right now is the time to cut off all spending is insane, especially considering the majority of the $700B will not be lost. This will not cause hyperinflation.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: Special K
I am currently undecided about the bill. What I don't like about it is the way in which it is being presented. Typically when someone tries to force you to make a big decision in a hurry, especially when it involves a large sum of money, they will typically gain something from the deal at your expense. One representative from Indiana used the analogy of a used car salesman. When the salesman gets pushy and insists that you must make the purchase "today" or the deal will be gone forever, typically that means you will get shafted by going along with the deal.

Maybe this bill is what's necessary to lead the country out of the current financial mess, and maybe it isn't. I don't trust Bernanke or Paulson because they likely have very close ties to Wall Street and I think they would put what's best for their friends before what's best for America. Wall Street seems to have an insatiable thirst for money at any cost, and I don't think that will ever change. Specific to the bill, I also don't see why buying these mortgage-backed assets won't simply cause the banks to load up on the next big get rich quick scheme. We will then be facing this situation again in ~10 years when the next asset bubble bursts.

I am not an economics major, but I believe the term "information asymmetry" applies in this situation. The average voter may not understand the complex issues behind this bill, but I see no reason to blindly put our trust in Paulson, Bernanke, etc. They are in a perfect position to exploit everyone else simply because of the information they have. I simply don't trust the people supporting this bill because they are in a perfect position to use their superior information to take advantage of everyone else.

Paulson used to be the CEO of Goldman Sachs, so yes, he has ties....lots of ties.

Silk or cotton?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: senseamp
So, are congressional Republicans really so EMO that they decide whether to vote for a bill based on Pelosi's speech? If they lack the ability to act rationally, and instead act out of spite, how can they be trusted to have any power?

For once, we agree on something.

Today the MSM is reporting that the story of Pelosi's speech caused some to change their minds is FALSE.

We also know why the bill didn't pass, why only 60% of Dems voted for it:

The bill is highly unpopular with the public, Pelosi gave many Dem House members who are up for re-election in tough races permission to vote "NO". The Repub side doesn't like the bil or how it's being shoved down everyones' throat, nor do they wanna put their jobs on the line by pissing off their constiuents. The Repub side came up with less votes than expected.

So, yeah, something's up. Why would Boehner agree to get enough Repub votes so Pelosi could let some of her Dems off the hook?

Esssentially, he's helping keep these Dems in office; why would he do that?

Fern
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: ericlp

Really? And all this time I figured we would just print up another 70 Billion... :p

Almost everything is done electronically - I'm sure China would love to give us another 70Billon. They will just keep collecting interest on the debt as usual. We'll sell out again.

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.

Foreign holdings only.

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

I didn't know that European countries hold more US debt then China
I did a quick sum and it's 558 billion dollars :Q


no wonder you guys can run these massive deficits
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,055
33,101
136
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: ericlp

Really? And all this time I figured we would just print up another 70 Billion... :p

Almost everything is done electronically - I'm sure China would love to give us another 70Billon. They will just keep collecting interest on the debt as usual. We'll sell out again.

Would be interesting to see a chart to see how much china and other nations have invested in the USA.

Foreign holdings only.

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

I didn't know that European countries hold more US debt then China
I did a quick sum and it's 558 billion dollars :Q

The UK has been on quite the buying spree lately...

Que the "omg europe owns us/switch to the gold standard quick" posts.
 

yuppiejr

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,318
0
0
Well lookie, lookie...

Dow Comes Back Big : http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...york/index.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like investors are scooping up some deals, could it be that private investors are going to take care of "bailing out" so the government doesn't need to use our tax dollars to do so? Capitalism at work here people.

Also on CNN, looks like the FDIC is finally looking to up it's insured deposit limit to help prevent a run on deposits. http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...mits/index.htm?cnn=yes

Sounds like "doing nothing" and letting capitalism work it's magic might just do the trick. Let the poorly run banks fail, let better run organizations swoop in and pick up their market share and keep your bailout money unless the FDIC ends up needing it to make good on lost deposits with banks that dissolve.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: yuppiejr
Well lookie, lookie...

Dow Comes Back Big : http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...york/index.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like investors are scooping up some deals, could it be that private investors are going to take care of "bailing out" so the government doesn't need to use our tax dollars to do so? Capitalism at work here people.

Also on CNN, looks like the FDIC is finally looking to up it's insured deposit limit to help prevent a run on deposits. http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...mits/index.htm?cnn=yes

Sounds like "doing nothing" and letting capitalism work it's magic might just do the trick. Let the poorly run banks fail, let better run organizations swoop in and pick up their market share and keep your bailout money unless the FDIC ends up needing it to make good on lost deposits with banks that dissolve.

you have no idea what you are talking about. This is just a technical rally and the share prices does not say anything about the liabilities some of these financials have. It will be a big mess if the US Congress does not pass this bailout.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: yuppiejr
Well lookie, lookie...

Dow Comes Back Big : http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...york/index.htm?cnn=yes

Looks like investors are scooping up some deals, could it be that private investors are going to take care of "bailing out" so the government doesn't need to use our tax dollars to do so? Capitalism at work here people.

Also on CNN, looks like the FDIC is finally looking to up it's insured deposit limit to help prevent a run on deposits. http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/3...mits/index.htm?cnn=yes

Sounds like "doing nothing" and letting capitalism work it's magic might just do the trick. Let the poorly run banks fail, let better run organizations swoop in and pick up their market share and keep your bailout money unless the FDIC ends up needing it to make good on lost deposits with banks that dissolve.

Do you even know why it increased?

Not because everybody is euphoric and buying shit up in the wake of the failed rescue plan thinking "ZOMG, CHEAP STUFF!"

Nope, it was because they think something will get passed this week.