Bail Out the Auto Industry

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Where did capitalism go? A company fucks up and the gov helps.

Capitalism remains. Sinking our entire country in the name of pure capitalism is cutting our noses off to spite our face.

What's funny is that we are so intent on being the world's boy scouts and playing by the "right" game that we do cut our noses off. From China trade to Boeing vs Airbus, we always "play fair" with "pure capitalism", only to suffer for it.

 

[SagaLore]

Instead of giving them free money, just make the entire industry from the manufacturing up to the dealerships, tax free until the end of 2010, and CAP union worker wages AND executive management wages.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Where did capitalism go? A company fucks up and the gov helps.

Capitalism remains. Sinking our entire country in the name of pure capitalism is cutting our noses off to spite our face.

What's funny is that we are so intent on being the world's boy scouts and playing by the "right" game that we do cut our noses off. From China trade to Boeing vs Airbus, we always "play fair" with "pure capitalism", only to suffer for it.

How likely do you believe that this bailout would be successful?

I know its hard to quantify, but try on a percentage scale. 70% ? 50%? 30%?

 

[bozack]

No, the unions need to be done away with and until they go chap 11 this will never happen. Let them crash and burn.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Instead of giving them free money, just make the entire industry from the manufacturing up to the dealerships, tax free until the end of 2010, and CAP union worker wages AND executive management wages.

Uhhhhhhh, they have an onrushing cash flow problem RIGHT NOW. Your "solution" wouldn't happen anywhere fast enough. Not even close.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
I say yes, but only under the same terms that the banks are being helped, huge concessions, regulatory changes, dilution of investors. I would add to that conditions for improvement, added CAFE restrictions, manditory hybrid and other technology improvements, complete management overhaul, and further concessions from the UAW (not volunteered, forced).

Please, at least with the big three we know who is getting bailed out and helped, with the banks the fed isn't relasing any info...pretty shitty IMHO, we are footing that bill, we should know who needs a hand out.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
I voted no because I've purchased many domestic cars and trucks in the past and I can't afford to be at the shop all of the time having them worked on.

You know, I used to only buy american, and while I had ok luck with that I was pretty peeved at the lack of service that I was offered especially when I talked to others who owned japanese cars...you'd think with how horrible the companies were doing they would do a little more for their customers.

We now own two japanese cars and the likelihood of my buying american again is really small.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: bozack
You know, I used to only buy american, and while I had ok luck with that I was pretty peeved at the lack of service that I was offered especially when I talked to others who owned japanese cars...you'd think with how horrible the companies were doing they would do a little more for their customers.

We now own two japanese cars and the likelihood of my buying american again is really small.

LOl at least you admit it. You do seem to be the kind of person who would make a decision to "buy American." Of course Japanese cars are better. Wtf do you think anyone buys them? Because they hate America? Welcome to the global free market, where you buy what's cheaper and better. Why do people continue to thinnk that conservatives understand the free market?

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Instead of giving them free money, just make the entire industry from the manufacturing up to the dealerships, tax free until the end of 2010, and CAP union worker wages AND executive management wages.

To be fair, I don't think any of the recent auto industry bailouts have been free money. All are low interest loans, so assuming they don't go belly up and are able to pay us back, we shouldn't lose any money on the deal.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: bozack
No, the unions need to be done away with and until they go chap 11 this will never happen. Let them crash and burn.

Chapter 11 does not affect the unions. Mindless bashing does nothing for your position.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

LOl at least you admit it. You do seem to be the kind of person who would make a decision to "buy American." Of course Japanese cars are better. Wtf do you think anyone buys them? Because they hate America? Welcome to the global free market, where you buy what's cheaper and better. Why do people continue to thinnk that conservatives understand the free market?

I am a bit perplexed by your statement of how I seem like whatever kind of person you presume?

I used to like American cars because I enjoyed musclecars and niche specialty vehicles a market that the Japanese don't really cater to (barring few exceptions). Specifically ford with their SVT division and Mustangs, however as times and priorities change I am no longer in the market for such a vehicle and have decided to consider other options. Also I do prefer to support companies that manufacture in the US whenever I get a chance, even if it means spending a little more...not because I feel what I would get is any better though, though it is nice when you do get top quality...for example I typically buy Allen Edmonds shoes, they cost alot more than what companies farm out to wherever, but they are made well, last a long time, and are made here in the US, plus customer service is fantastic, it would be nice if I could say the same about the US Auto industry, sadly I cannot.

Also I am not commenting on the quality of the vehicle per say, but rather the services that the dealerships offer...with our Japanese cars we can get service any day of the week, they provide loaners, and the cars get washed when we bring them in at no charge (Our Saab is really a Subaru Impreza so I consider it japanese), with the American cars I had the dealerships traditionally were open only during the week, and the work performed was usually sub par, where I would often times have to go back two or three times to get the same thing resolved.

My point is that American car companies could have done alot more to win over customers, and not just in quality of the car, but also quality of the service experience...I even know owners of Cadillacs who are really pissed that they don't get a loaner service wheras Lexus, Infinity, Acura, Saab, and many other luxury brands offer this to their customers....

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: bozack
No, the unions need to be done away with and until they go chap 11 this will never happen. Let them crash and burn.

Chapter 11 does not affect the unions. Mindless bashing does nothing for your position.

Chap 11 hopefully will give them the ability to erase their union contracts and start fresh, and how is this mindless bashing? if it weren't for union deals the costs for the companies would be much much less, sure corporate made some questionable product decisions but the reality is that things need to change, and dumping the unions is a smart move.

Honestly I am surprised so many are ready and willing to bail out these failed companies, as others have said this is only a band aid solution that will prolong the inevitable.

 

[Engineer]

<--- Works in automotive supplier industry. Guess my vote.

 

[StageLeft]

Stuck between no and yes but only if.

Only a damned idiot thinks that both are true at the same time: a) the auto companies are on the brink and it's going to completely screw the conomy and b) $25-50B is enough to completely reverse this.

Don't be so silly, these companies if so close to death and so crucial are going to take TONS more than that amount of money to get sorted out again. People are living in a complete fantasy land if they think that chump change is going to sort them out.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: bozack
You know, I used to only buy american, and while I had ok luck with that I was pretty peeved at the lack of service that I was offered especially when I talked to others who owned japanese cars...you'd think with how horrible the companies were doing they would do a little more for their customers.

We now own two japanese cars and the likelihood of my buying american again is really small.

LOl at least you admit it. You do seem to be the kind of person who would make a decision to "buy American." Of course Japanese cars are better. Wtf do you think anyone buys them? Because they hate America? Welcome to the global free market, where you buy what's cheaper and better. Why do people continue to thinnk that conservatives understand the free market?

american cars are as good as japanese, this isn't 1995 any more. The real crap is made in germany.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
People are living in a complete fantasy land if they think that chump change is going to sort them out.

<------------------ Has lived long enough to hear $25 BILLION DOLLARS earnestly and without any trace of irony called "chump change." :shocked:

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Stuck between no and yes but only if.

Only a damned idiot thinks that both are true at the same time: a) the auto companies are on the brink and it's going to completely screw the conomy and b) $25-50B is enough to completely reverse this.

Don't be so silly, these companies if so close to death and so crucial are going to take TONS more than that amount of money to get sorted out again. People are living in a complete fantasy land if they think that chump change is going to sort them out.

I agree Skoorb, it is too little, and I wonder if this gets passed would it open the floodgates to more in the not so distant future...I say squash it now and say no before they come back looking for more, these things have to be dealt with, not just paid off to be handled at a laster date.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

american cars are as good as japanese, this isn't 1995 any more. The real crap is made in germany.

FWIW I agree sort of, we owned a Jetta that was junk, and the customer service from VW was a joke, which is why we dumped that car at a big loss, I have heard loads of complaints from MB owners though their quality seems to be getting better.

Whereas the American cars I had were ok from a reliablilty standpoint, the build wasn't nearly as nice as our new Honda but then again that is comparing a 2000 to something new this past year so not really fair IMHO. My major issue is and always has been with the lack of service from the American brands dealers.

 

[Farang]

Anyone watch This Week today? It was an interesting discussion with two of the panelists being on the fence and supporting the bailout, and George Will opposing. I went into the show slightly opposed but I might be coming around. Krugman's argument was that in a normal market the companies would Chapter 11 and work through it, but in this market credit is frozen so they are put at a disadvantage that may warrant government intervention. Normally, he said, we should favor free market principles, but strictly acting on ideology in this crisis is a mistake.

 

[Viper GTS]

I lean towards yes. Part of it is for selfish reasons (I desperately want to upgrade to a Z06 Corvette & I really would prefer that GM be around when I do), but I just don't see the value in "letting them die." I don't think the current crisis is entirely their doing, particularly the last 3 months. The "let them die" crowd seems to think that the recent gas speculation should have been predictable, that the sudden death of all car sales was avoidable (if only they had better cars!). All car manufacturers are having some terrible months, it's not like the US makers did anything substantially different. Nobody is selling cars right now, it's not a GM thing it's the whole market.

I don't think GM needs to die just because people just went all kinds of stupid over the high gas prices. There are a whole lot of downsides to letting them go, and no visible upsides.

Viper GTS

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: chess9
I've changed my mind on this issue. Initially I was opposed, but after considering some of the consequences to our economy and tax base, to say nothing of the pain to the 3 million workers involved, I think we should give them a hand.

The problem with a bailout is properly managing it. Without concessions by labor and management, a viable business plan, and completely new management, I don't think a bailout would do anything but prolong the inevitable. I would give it ONE try.

-Robert

don't listen to this guy, he's a fucking lawyer

 

[Farang]

ViperGTS I think you put it better than I did. Here you have a struggling industry that employs 2.5 million Americans and then a separate part of the the economy (the financial system) crumbles, taking everything down with it and brings this struggling industry to the point of collapse. If we are going to inject $700 billion into the financial industry to prop it up and save the economy, I do not think we can wipe our hands clean of the residual effects that the credit freeze has had and ignore the auto industry.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
I don't think GM needs to die just because people just went all kinds of stupid over the high gas prices.

I voted yes too but this part is wrong. People have a rational fear of high gas prices. Toyota invested in hybrids. GM is at fault for not doing that.

 

[bozack]

I think this whole thing is kind of silly though, cause we all know in the end they will get the money, so no point in arguing about it.

I do think though that for what they did throghout the 80s and into the 90s, and then by focusing mostly on SUVs and other gas guzzlers, as well as not doing a better job of keeping the UAW in check they somewhat deserve to be where they are.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Farang
ViperGTS I think you put it better than I did. Here you have a struggling industry that employs 2.5 million Americans and then a separate part of the the economy (the financial system) crumbles, taking everything down with it and brings this struggling industry to the point of collapse. If we are going to inject $700 billion into the financial industry to prop it up and save the economy, I do not think we can wipe our hands clean of the residual effects that the credit freeze has had and ignore the auto industry.

Exactly. Yes they were struggling before. But the completely fucked situation they're in now is not because of anything they did.

Yes they have bigger issues that need to be corrected long term, but IMO it's in the best interest of the country to make sure they survive this heart attack.

One issue is evident in this thread: No matter how good american cars have gotten people still think that there is a massive quality gap between them & the imports. This simply isn't the case any more, yet you can't even get people to consider the american offerings unless it's a truck/SUV.

Viper GTS