Bagram Airfield Crash 29 APR 2013

[StinkyPinky]

Looks like load shifting to me. The plane is taking off at that angle on purpose. It's called a "Tactical" takeoff and done if there are possible insurgents in the area. So it's already prone to stall and then the cargo shifts to the back of the plane and it's all over and lights out.

 

[Triumph]

I was wondering about that. Perhaps it was a gear failure. Everyone is quick to say improperly secured but it could have been and just a strap, attachment point, or whatever failed.

From what friends have told me planes in those parts (well military) often ascend much quick on take off than a civilian plane in the states would. The whole being shot at risk. Not sure if they do it at Bagram or not but could have been a factor too. Steeper take off with a weakened chain or something.


Still sad to have lost those on board

yeah, i have been on many flights into and out of bagram, and they were always, shall we say, uncomfortable. when wheels are up, it's full power and full climb. landings were the same way. also, bagram is at about 5,000 feet so you are already taking off at a disadvantage.

i'm sure everyone on the base thought it was some kind of anti aircraft missile or other attack. it is a very large base but you could've seen that smoke plume from the opposite end. and that usually isn't a good sign in a war zone.

 

[MarkXIX]

The large, black plume of smoke was quite troubling until word got around what happened. Just a day or two earlier the Taliban announced their spring offensive, so could have been massive VBIED or similar.

The crash happened just about 1-2 miles from my office. I heard the crash, but thought it was mine clearing operations or something.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's a heartbreaking video. They are battling the stall right away. You can see the left wing stall, and they actually recover from that and get the wings level, but it's futile. Both wings stall and they just don't have enough altitude to recover. The only way to recover is to point the nose down, but they are out of time and room so soon after takeoff.

5 MRAPs of some type were aboard, supposedly.

 

[LTC8K6]

Looks like load shifting to me. The plane is taking off at that angle on purpose. It's called a "Tactical" takeoff and done if there are possible insurgents in the area. So it's already prone to stall and then the cargo shifts to the back of the plane and it's all over and lights out.

Not that high of an angle, though. We can be reasonably sure that the crew knew they were in trouble almost immediately because they never raised the gear. Gear is normally raised as soon as the plane begins to indicate that it's climbing, while still just over the runway.

They had problems very soon after rotation, if not before, I think. The problems were bad enough that the gear was not important.

 

[Farang]

I've been flying a lot lately and it amazes me how safe it is. Lift seems to be a very delicate thing and as soon as you lose it you're not in an airplane but a giant metal box that will fall from the sky. This crash is unique from the ones I've seen it that the plane just drops.

Tragic.. for those interested in the mechanics check out Pprune forums. Don't post there if you aren't a pilot though (I don't) because it does tend to get muddled up with idiots.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Load shift seems to make sense for sure. My guess is from the very start of the video the plane already stopped getting lift and it was the engines directly keeping it in the sky, then they just stalled due to lack of air flow and being in no position to glide it just fell like a toy. I'm no expert so it's just a guess. Either way, crazy to see a plane completely fall out of the sky like that. It's not like a situation where all engines fail and it can glide, it just dropped.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

You know how they say stuff doesn't explode when it crashes.....well f that...that looked pretty explosion-y to me.

RIP. I remember that place well...

most stuff isnt filled with 57,000+ gallons of jet fuel

 

[tcG]

@RedSquirrel,

Stall != engines stopping

 

[_Rick_]

most stuff isnt filled with 57,000+ gallons of jet fuel

Also, that wasn't really much of an explosion, just some jetfuel burning off.

 

[LTC8K6]

The stall referred to is when the wings do not have enough air flowing over them to provide enough lift. It is the wings that are stalling. This can occur in several ways. One is simply moving forward too slowly. Another is getting the wings at too high an angle of attack. Too much nose up attitude.

As a separate issue, ice can alter the shape of the wing, raising the stall speed of the wing, and increasing the chance that the wing will stall.

The engines can be running fine and wide open, but if the wings stall, you have become a brick, and you will lose the battle with gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)#Stalling_a_fixed-wing_aircraft

 

[Farang]

The stall referred to is when the wings do not have enough air flowing over them to provide enough lift. It is the wings that are stalling. This can occur in several ways. One is simply moving forward too slowly. Another is getting the wings at too high an angle of attack. Too much nose up attitude.

As a separate issue, ice can alter the shape of the wing, raising the stall speed of the wing, and increasing the chance that the wing will stall.

The engines can be running fine and wide open, but if the wings stall, you have become a brick, and you will lose the battle with gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)#Stalling_a_fixed-wing_aircraft

IIRC this is what happened with the crash in Buffalo. Ice built up on the wings, when the plane slowed down on approach it fell out of the sky.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

That's one hell of a stall.

 

[BUTCH1]

Stall != engines stopping

No, every aircraft has a "stall" speed, that's the point where the plane is not moving fast enough for the wings to generate lift to keep the plane from falling. Stall speed can vary wildly depending on the design of the plane, a glider for example has a very low stall speed due to the size of it's wings and the low weight of the airframe..

 

[LTC8K6]

One other thing about wing stall, at high altitudes, the thinner air increases stall speed, making a stall more likely. Such as with AF447.

There is a similar thing with the rudder on a plane or on a boat. There has to be enough fluid moving at enough speed over the control surface for the surface to have the desired effect.

Ever see video of a boat slowly but surely crash into the dock, or another boat, from a seemingly long way away? If the boat isn't moving fast enough, the rudder doesn't do anything to the path of the boat. You can turn it all you want, but it does nothing. Steerageway is the term for the lowest speed at which the rudder will steer the boat. Get below that, and you have lost rudder steering. This is why boats that steer with a rudder don't just drift downstream, but power their way downstream.

Kind of counter intuitive to have to speed up to avoid a collision.

 

[Kaido]

The large, black plume of smoke was quite troubling until word got around what happened. Just a day or two earlier the Taliban announced their spring offensive, so could have been massive VBIED or similar.

The crash happened just about 1-2 miles from my office. I heard the crash, but thought it was mine clearing operations or something.

Suddenly I'm very grateful for my air-conditioned state-side job D:

 

[iamwiz82]

The large, black plume of smoke was quite troubling until word got around what happened. Just a day or two earlier the Taliban announced their spring offensive, so could have been massive VBIED or similar.

The crash happened just about 1-2 miles from my office. I heard the crash, but thought it was mine clearing operations or something.

They claimed responsibility

 

[jemcam]

I just got back from 9 months in that shithole. They climbout steeply because there are mountains in a horseshoe shape around Bagram Airfield and they have to have good altitude to turn west before they approach the mountains in the north. As someone said, add to that the thinner high altitude air and you have a recipe for disaster. Most planes, even the C-5's and 747 are wheels up at about 2/3 of the length of the runway. The fact that he cleared the end of the runway before crashing tells me he had problems long before this video started recording.

 

[ichy]

IIRC this is what happened with the crash in Buffalo. Ice built up on the wings, when the plane slowed down on approach it fell out of the sky.

The Continental crash in Buffalo was caused by pilot error. The situation should have been recoverable but when the stick shaker went off the pilot pulled back on the control column. Whoops.

 

[MarkXIX]

They claimed responsibility

Yeah, there was a jackass on the NBC News message board when the first article was published that claimed he saw the crash and that it blew up in mid-air and that it was very likely the Taliban did it. Worse than that, the idiot claimed to be here on base when he saw it.

I wish he were, I'd like to have "words" with him.

As for the mine fields, yes, the base is riddled with them still. Driving around the base there are active mine fields just feet off some of the main roads still. The Soviets left a shit ton of mines around this place when they pulled out. Our Engineers and EOD techs here on base clear as many as they can this time of year still.

 

[LTC8K6]

Here is a stall from too tight of a turn, at too low speed, and too low altitude to recover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2u9LWoQ_o

 

[Markbnj]

Here is a stall from too tight of a turn, at too low speed, and too low altitude to recover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS2u9LWoQ_o

Another famous example...

http://youtu.be/sjFIB1L3BPU?t=1m40s

 

[Markbnj]

The Continental crash in Buffalo was caused by pilot error. The situation should have been recoverable but when the stick shaker went off the pilot pulled back on the control column. Whoops.

He was chatting up his young female copilot when the stall occurred.

 

[rivan]

Shit. I wish I hadn't seen that.

RIP.

 

[reallyscrued]

Cars, perhaps. This plane was departing with full tanks, I assume. And aircraft very often explode when they hit something hard. All that fuel, and vapor, and four jet engines running... I think it's going to burn if you break it up into small pieces.

I find it ironic. Movies commonly show cars falling off cliffs then exploding on impact, but planes crashing typically result in an intact fuselage also in the movies.

Video was unreal.