Bagram Airfield Crash 29 APR 2013

[Minerva]

Wow that is a lot of black smoke.
I feel sorry for those that lost their lives.
One person is a father whose wife is expecting another baby in a few months.
So sad.

 

[LTC8K6]

Other pilots are saying this was a very good pilot.

If you look at the vid closely, you can see him apply full rudder to correct the stalling left wing successfully. What he apparently thought of quickly, was to use the yawing motion caused by the rudder to accelerate the left wing and bring it out of it's stall. You can see the wings go back to level briefly before the final inevitable outcome.

These pilots were doing a great job all the way down.

It looks like they actually recovered from what happened initially, but did not have enough altitude to fully recover.

Looking at the vid again, and considering the angle of the camera to the plane, I'm not so sure the plane is at such a high angle of attack as I initially assumed.

 

[OutHouse]

holy shit!

ESTIMATED PRICE AS TESTED - $1,437,000 (estimated base price: $437,000)

 

[Balt]

Other pilots are saying this was a very good pilot.

If you look at the vid closely, you can see him apply full rudder to correct the stalling left wing successfully. What he apparently thought of quickly, was to use the yawing motion caused by the rudder to accelerate the left wing and bring it out of it's stall. You can see the wings go back to level briefly before the final inevitable outcome.

These pilots were doing a great job all the way down.

It looks like they actually recovered from what happened initially, but did not have enough altitude to fully recover.

Looking at the vid again, and considering the angle of the camera to the plane, I'm not so sure the plane is at such a high angle of attack as I initially assumed.

That's one of the things that makes the video so heart-wrenching imo. It looks like he did the right thing and could have at least pulled off a hard/rough landing if he'd had more altitude to work with. Hard to say though because the plane had almost no forward speed. Seems like he would have needed more altitude so he could dip the nose quite a lot more.

I'm not a pilot, though, so I don't know.

 

[BUTCH1]

Other pilots are saying this was a very good pilot.

If you look at the vid closely, you can see him apply full rudder to correct the stalling left wing successfully. What he apparently thought of quickly, was to use the yawing motion caused by the rudder to accelerate the left wing and bring it out of it's stall. You can see the wings go back to level briefly before the final inevitable outcome.

These pilots were doing a great job all the way down.

It looks like they actually recovered from what happened initially, but did not have enough altitude to fully recover.

Looking at the vid again, and considering the angle of the camera to the plane, I'm not so sure the plane is at such a high angle of attack as I initially assumed.

Yep, he recovered it and got it level, poor dude just had no airspeed or altitude to work with. There's an aviation school near me (Embry Riddle), sometimes you will see a bumper sticker, "altitude is your friend" on students cars..

 

[MarkXIX]

It is appearing more and more likely that somehow the load inside the aircraft broke free and caused this. Supposedly an MATV broke free in the cargo hold after take off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_M-ATV

The information listed at the link above very likely does NOT take into account additional armor packages and modifications typically made in theater to adjust to the threats faced by the enemy. As such, you're probably looking at easily 25 tons shifting inside the cargo hold and that assumes that when it broke free it didn't break other cargo free in the hold as well.

 

[Balt]

Considering the amount of materiel that is being moved out of Afghanistan without the benefit of access to the sea, an accident like this may have been more likely than one would think given the sheer number of flights that are taking/will have to take place. There was an article in The Economist last week, in fact, talking about the logistical challenges of getting all of our equipment out.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's actually not that likely the cargo broke free. Each MRAP is tied down at dozens of points. It made the prior flight leg okay. No cargo was added or removed at Bagram as far as we know. The cargo was inspected at Bagram.

Of course, it still could have broken free.

If 15 or twenty tons broke free and moved to the back, I wouldn't expect them to ever get the nose down again. I'd expect a tail low impact. I wouldn't think there would be enough control authority at the low speeds to overcome the weight shift.

But it's early yet and much more info is needed.

 

[MarkXIX]

It's actually not that likely the cargo broke free. Each MRAP is tied down at dozens of points. It made the prior flight leg okay. No cargo was added or removed at Bagram as far as we know. The cargo was inspected at Bagram.

Of course, it still could have broken free.

If 15 or twenty tons broke free and moved to the back, I wouldn't expect them to ever get the nose down again. I'd expect a tail low impact. I wouldn't think there would be enough control authority at the low speeds to overcome the weight shift.

But it's early yet and much more info is needed.

Not disagreeing, the jury's still out, but based on information stating the pilots radioed about a load shift just before crashing, as well as National Air Cargo stating the cargo was 6 MRAPs (which has become a generic term for all types of armored tactical vehicles), it's looking likely.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not disagreeing, the jury's still out, but based on information stating the pilots radioed about a load shift just before crashing, as well as National Air Cargo stating the cargo was 6 MRAPs (which has become a generic term for all types of armored tactical vehicles), it's looking likely.

I wouldn't think they had time to bother with the radio. They didn't even have time to raise the gear, which is normally done almost immediately after the wheels leave the ground.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. First you have to fly the plane and keep it safe, then figure out where the plane is heading and finally, talk to external controllers.

The radio has very low priority in an emergency

Here is a typical M-ATV tiedown:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/513650-cargo-crash-bagram-18.html#post7824864

 

[LTC8K6]

Of course, if it broke free and moved back, it also can move forward again.

 

[MarkXIX]

Well, I will await the flight recorder information. The scene of the accident is still cordoned off here on base.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, I will await the flight recorder information. The scene of the accident is still cordoned off here on base.

Yes, and now we also have the KC-135 down in Kyrgyzstan to wonder about also.

http://kg.akipress.org/news:574074)

http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/g/o/gogiman/fotografiya-2.jpg

 

[Ksyder]

I ran across this computer simulation of the crash while checking out live leak.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ca_1367498083

 

[davmat787]

I wouldn't think they had time to bother with the radio. They didn't even have time to raise the gear, which is normally done almost immediately after the wheels leave the ground.

Sorry to nitpick, but gear up is only performed once the co-pilot confirms and announces to the PIC that positive rate has been achieved. Then, the PIC will call for gear up.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but this possibly could have been due to a stuck elevator as well. Although it looks like a load-shift has been confirmed. Usually an aircraft incident of this magnitude is the result of a series or combination of errors and/or problems, sometimes both mechanical and human error.

IF they recover data from the FDR, it will be very interesting to see it plugged into a real flight simulator and recreated. I have no doubt it is unrecoverable, but I also have no doubt many lessons will be learned from this and procedures updated.

 

[Triumph]

I'm still curious how the heck they fit an MRAP into a 747. I've seen them inside of C-5's, but that plane has huge openings in the front and rear.

 

[BUTCH1]

Sorry to nitpick, but gear up is only performed once the co-pilot confirms and announces to the PIC that positive rate has been achieved. Then, the PIC will call for gear up.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but this possibly could have been due to a stuck elevator as well. Although it looks like a load-shift has been confirmed. Usually an aircraft incident of this magnitude is the result of a series or combination of errors and/or problems, sometimes both mechanical and human error.

IF they recover data from the FDR, it will be very interesting to see it plugged into a real flight simulator and recreated. I have no doubt it is unrecoverable, but I also have no doubt many lessons will be learned from this and procedures updated.

The 737 had a crash due to a broken elevator (the one the movie Flight was based on), the jackscrew broke and caused the elevator to pitch the plane downward, I don't recall if it was a bad design or poor maintenance (lubrication) that caused it to break free. I've never heard of similar problems with the 747 but nonetheless the FDR will reveal the operation of the elevator and if it played a part in this crash..

 

[Nintendesert]

I'm still curious how the heck they fit an MRAP into a 747. I've seen them inside of C-5's, but that plane has huge openings in the front and rear.

MATVs are much smaller than conventional MRAPS we've all come to know.

 

[Markbnj]

The 737 had a crash due to a broken elevator (the one the movie Flight was based on), the jackscrew broke and caused the elevator to pitch the plane downward, I don't recall if it was a bad design or poor maintenance (lubrication) that caused it to break free.

Are you thinking of the aircraft that crashed into the sea off LA? If so, that was an Air Alaska MD-80, and the jackscrew failed due to improper maintenance.

 

[LTC8K6]

MATVs are much smaller than conventional MRAPS we've all come to know.

Well, 20 feet long and 15 tons isn't small.

 

[LTC8K6]

Sorry to nitpick, but gear up is only performed once the co-pilot confirms and announces to the PIC that positive rate has been achieved. Then, the PIC will call for gear up.

V1, rotate, positive climb, gear up.

Gear up is usually just after rotation.

You can see this in numerous cockpit takeoff vids.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm still curious how the heck they fit an MRAP into a 747. I've seen them inside of C-5's, but that plane has huge openings in the front and rear.

The pics have been posted already. Straight in the side door, 90 degree turn.
The load floor has motorized rollers designed for moving and turning heavy pallets. The door is big enough. Hundreds have been delivered by 747, 5 or 6 per load depending on the 747 model used.

Once through the door, there's plenty of room.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/513650-cargo-crash-bagram-18.html#post7824864

 

[LTC8K6]

The 747, and many other planes, has a system and method to deal with a jammed elevator.

It won't work on every type of jam, and you may run out of room anyway.

 

[AlienCraft]

According to other video... the load shifted towards the rear of the plane causing it to pitch up wildly and the engines to stall. No idea if that's accurate or not... will probably quite some time before it's all known for sure.

The engines rarely stall, however the wings are a different matter.
Either way, it is simply called a stall.

 

[LTC8K6]

When a jet engine stalls, it's usually a compressor stall, which would be very obvious. Lots of banging and flames out the back.

Other pilots have noticed that the landing gear doors are open as the plane impacts the ground, meaning the landing gear is "in transit". Most likely, they lowered the gear. So I think we can forget about the idea that they never raised the gear.

Looks like they raised it, and then decided to lower it.

The big gear doors are normally closed, except when the gear is moving.