Question B550 chipset, so AMD joins the dark side after all.

[Shivansps]

I just read the article...

So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later, they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.

 

[Shivansps]

No, it's not. The Athlon 200GE has PCI-E x4 for GPU, and x2 for NVMe. The Ryzen CPUs have PCI-E x16 for GPU, and x4 for NVMe.

If you've seen a board that accepts an Athlon 200GE-family APU, and supports an x4 NVMe @ x4, then it is "stealing" lanes from somewhere else, maybe the SoC SATA lines.

In not sure about the Athlons but the board im currently testing this on Asus Prime B450M-A it happens with 3200G and a 3600. This is also true on my AB350 Gaming with my 3600.

This is only true if you use a second NVME drive or you install your NVME drive in the the second NVME slot that is connected to the B450 chipset and not the first NVME slot that is connected directly to the CPU.

If you only use a single NVME drive and you connected to the first slot that uses the PCIe lanes from the CPU you dont loose any SATA and you have 6x SATA ports available.

No no, i can fully confirm that this happens on a AB350 Gaming, Asus B450M-A, and B450 Aorus Elite by using a single 4x NVME drive.
In fact the Aorus Elite losses 4 satas if both NVME are used.

https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_b450-aorus-elite_1002_e.pdf

Page 17

 

[AtenRa]

No no, i can fully confirm that this happens on a AB350 Gaming, Asus B450M-A, and B450 Aorus Elite by using a single 4x NVME drive.
In fact the Aorus Elite losses 4 satas if both NVME are used.

https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_b450-aorus-elite_1002_e.pdf

Page 17

That is because those boards have the NVME slot connected to the CHIPSET and not to the CPU.

edit:

For the Gigabyte B450 Aorus Elite, they connected only 4x SATA ports to the chipset (SATA3 ports 0,1,2,3 on the diagram) and another 2x ports to the CPU PCIe lines (ASATA3 ports 1,0 on the diagram)

That is why when you install a NVME drive in either slot 1 or in slot 2 you always loose 2x SATA , this is the worst they could do.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

I bought an excellent ITX B450 board with a 2700X thinking I could eventually upgrade to a 4XXX series CPU (based on AMD talking about maintaining the AM4 socket for several generations). Definitely disappointed to hear that they won’t be offering support for anything beyond the 3XXX series on B450. I now realize that bragging about hardware socket compatibility is meaningless when there isn’t a desire to also update the firmware.

I hope AMD reconsiders their stance and makes the 4XX chipset compatible with the 4XXX CPUs.

-AG

 

[Shivansps]

That is because those boards have the NVME slot connected to the CHIPSET and not to the CPU.

edit:

For the Gigabyte B450 Aorus Elite, they connected only 4x SATA ports to the chipset (SATA3 ports 0,1,2,3 on the diagram) and another 2x ports to the CPU PCIe lines (ASATA3 ports 1,0 on the diagram)

That is why when you install a NVME drive in either slot 1 or in slot 2 you always loose 2x SATA , this is the worst they could do.

One of the NVME is always attached to the CPU, but the SoC only provides 2x PCI-E, the other x2 are either PCI-E or 2x sata, the SoC never provided x4 PCI-E for the NVME and 2 SATAs, is one or the other. This is why you losse the SATAs from the SoC if you use a X4 NVME on the main one.

You can use a x2 NVME on the main slot connected to the CPU and dont lose any Satas...

B450 does not seems to provide more than 4 satas on his own, or at least, i dont know a implementation that does that.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That's really funny. Because my Asus B450-F ROG STRIX Gaming ATX mobo, I've got a Ryzen R5 3600 CPU in there, and I have... TWO NVMe x4 PCI-E 3.0 SSDs (Intel 660p 1TB), in RAID-0, AND several SATAs, some of which were on the SoC SATA ports (I think, a DVD drive or something). Anyways, one of the earlier BIOSes, I didn't have my SoC SATA ports. But now I do. Along with... both x4 NVMe slots. (One of which, I'm prettty certain, is bifurcated off of the PCI-E x16 3.0 GPU slot, I get x8 to primary GPU, x4 to secondary GPU, and x4 to secondary NVMe, all at 3.0, along with the dedicated PCI-E x4 3.0 off of the CPU for the primary NVMe, and then a couple of PCI-E x1 slots and a PCI-E x4 electrical (bottom-most PCI-E x16 slot), that's off of the chipset, PLUS the four B450 chipset SATA ports, PLUS the two SoC SATA ports.

Figure that one out.

 

[YAYgee]

Was B550 delayed?

In the official briefing they claim that isn't the case. Instead they decided it's now the right time to bring B550 to market.

B550 launched alongside the new Ryzen 3 CPUs and indeed that seems like a calculated move. The R3 3100 and 3300X are currently the only entry level CPUs that are supported. At least on B550 the 1600AF, for example, can't cannibalize the sales of the new Ryzen 3 CPUs. The 3200G and 3400G were explicitly left out. Hopefully desktop Renoir will be launched soon (especially as 2400G/3400G stock has dried up).

 

[eek2121]

PCIe Gen 4.0 is backward compatible with Gen 3, no problem having the CPU lanes at Gen 4 and the external devices being Gen 3.
Same as we have with the GPUs.

You misunderstand the issue completely. This isn’t about backwards compatibility, but rather, the negotiated link rate. Older boards have to have a hard stop at PCIE 3.0 due to stability issues. Boards COULD technically be remade with say, a B450 chipset, but you would have to have a way to distinguish those boards from other B450 boards. AMD is doing this by refreshing the chipset.

I would rather not go "backwards" to USB 3.0 / USB 3.1 Gen1 / USB 3.2 Gen2, but instead, what about those new NVMe-protocol HDDs?

And... as you well know, "mining rigs" have been using USB 3.0 shielded cables, to carry a PCI-E x1 signal to a riser board. Some mobos, designed specifically for mining, allowed you to plug those USB 3.0 shielded cables with Type-A plug, directly into the board.

Instead of USB as USB, why not stick a bunch of those external-style USB3.0 (carrying a PCI-E x1 signal) onto the mobo, instead of SATA ports, and then run the PCI-E signal over the USB3.0 cable to the drive itself, which would be using PCI-E NVMe. This could be used instead of SATA HDDs, and as well, PCI-E x1 NVMe 2.5" SSDs and whatnot.

NVME isn’t a connector type.

 

[eek2121]

I bought an excellent ITX B450 board with a 2700X thinking I could eventually upgrade to a 4XXX series CPU (based on AMD talking about maintaining the AM4 socket for several generations). Definitely disappointed to hear that they won’t be offering support for anything beyond the 3XXX series on B450. I now realize that bragging about hardware socket compatibility is meaningless when there isn’t a desire to also update the firmware.

I hope AMD reconsiders their stance and makes the 4XX chipset compatible with the 4XXX CPUs.

-AG

On most boards there isn’t enough space for the new microcode.

 

[AtenRa]

One of the NVME is always attached to the CPU, but the SoC only provides 2x PCI-E, the other x2 are either PCI-E or 2x sata, the SoC never provided x4 PCI-E for the NVME and 2 SATAs, is one or the other. This is why you losse the SATAs from the SoC if you use a X4 NVME on the main one.

You can use a x2 NVME on the main slot connected to the CPU and dont lose any Satas...

B450 does not seems to provide more than 4 satas on his own, or at least, i dont know a implementation that does that.

The SoC (CPU/APU) have 4x PCIe , you can use all four PCIe lanes for the NVME or you can have 2x lanes for SATA and the other 2x lanes for a 2x NVME.
In most of the boards, 2 SATA ports are connected to the SoC PCIe lanes and the moment you use a 4x NVME drive you loose the two SATA ports.

The B450 chipset provides 6x SATA but, if you connect a SATAe (NVME) port you lose 2x SATA

And here is B550

 

[AtenRa]

You misunderstand the issue completely. This isn’t about backwards compatibility, but rather, the negotiated link rate. Older boards have to have a hard stop at PCIE 3.0 due to stability issues. Boards COULD technically be remade with say, a B450 chipset, but you would have to have a way to distinguish those boards from other B450 boards. AMD is doing this by refreshing the chipset.



NVME isn’t a connector type.

There is no problem to create a new board that has PCIe Gen 4.0 with the B450 chipset simple because those PCIe Gen 4.0 lanes are coming from the SoC/APU(ZEN 2.0).

 

[Shivansps]

The SoC (CPU/APU) have 4x PCIe , you can use all four PCIe lanes for the NVME or you can have 2x lanes for SATA and the other 2x lanes for a 2x NVME.
In most of the boards, 2 SATA ports are connected to the SoC PCIe lanes and the moment you use a 4x NVME drive you loose the two SATA ports.

The B450 chipset provides 6x SATA but, if you connect a SATAe (NVME) port you lose 2x SATA

And here is B550

Both slides says otherwise:
B450 one:
4x PCI-E NVME 3.0
or
2xSATA + 2x NVME


B550 one:
x4 NVME 4.0
or
2xSATA + x2 NVME 4.0

If you use the x4 PCI-E for the NVME from CPU, you cant use the SATAs that comes from the CPU, that what im seeing and thats what the slides says.

 

[Shivansps]

That's really funny. Because my Asus B450-F ROG STRIX Gaming ATX mobo, I've got a Ryzen R5 3600 CPU in there, and I have... TWO NVMe x4 PCI-E 3.0 SSDs (Intel 660p 1TB), in RAID-0, AND several SATAs, some of which were on the SoC SATA ports (I think, a DVD drive or something). Anyways, one of the earlier BIOSes, I didn't have my SoC SATA ports. But now I do. Along with... both x4 NVMe slots. (One of which, I'm prettty certain, is bifurcated off of the PCI-E x16 3.0 GPU slot, I get x8 to primary GPU, x4 to secondary GPU, and x4 to secondary NVMe, all at 3.0, along with the dedicated PCI-E x4 3.0 off of the CPU for the primary NVMe, and then a couple of PCI-E x1 slots and a PCI-E x4 electrical (bottom-most PCI-E x16 slot), that's off of the chipset, PLUS the four B450 chipset SATA ports, PLUS the two SoC SATA ports.

Figure that one out.

Thats strange, Asus page for that mb say it is using 4 satas from B450 and 2 Satas from SoC... the 2nd M2 uses pci-e lanes from the main PCI-E, something is off, you are sure that all satas ports are working and that the NVME on the first slot is working at x4?

 

[AtenRa]

Both slides says otherwise:
B450 one:
4x PCI-E NVME 3.0
or
2xSATA + 2x NVME


B550 one:
x4 NVME 4.0
or
2xSATA + x2 NVME 4.0

If you use the x4 PCI-E for the NVME from CPU, you cant use the SATAs that comes from the CPU, that what im seeing and thats what the slides says.

The only difference is that the PCIe lanes from the CPU are Gen 4 in B550.

One more difference in B550 is that because you have PCIe Gen 4, you can use 2x PCIe (Gen 4) lanes for NVME 4x(Gen 3) + 2 SATA without loosing any performance on your NVME drive.

But yes, if you use all four PCIe lanes from the SoC then you loose 2x SATA ports.

Also with the B550 we can have 2x NVME drives (2x2 PCIe Gen 4.0) directly from the SOC without loosing any performance or the need to use lanes from the Chipset.

 

[Topweasel]

The only difference is that the PCIe lanes from the CPU are Gen 4 in B550.

One more difference in B550 is that because you have PCIe Gen 4, you can use 2x PCIe (Gen 4) lanes for NVME 4x(Gen 3) + 2 SATA without loosing any performance on your NVME drive.

But yes, if you use all four PCIe lanes from the SoC then you loose 2x SATA ports.

Also with the B550 we can have 2x NVME drives (2x2 PCIe Gen 4.0) directly from the SOC without loosing any performance or the need to use lanes from the Chipset.

Well..... No. Only if they specifically only if they Burificate the PCIE 4.0 to PCIE 3.0 before hand. Otherwise this is a 5500 Scenario and you get the bandwidth of PCIe 3.0 x2 unless you were using a PCIe 4.0 SSD.

 

[Rigg]

 

[AtenRa]

Well..... No. Only if they specifically only if they Burificate the PCIE 4.0 to PCIE 3.0 before hand. Otherwise this is a 5500 Scenario and you get the bandwidth of PCIe 3.0 x2 unless you were using a PCIe 4.0 SSD.

You can get 2x + 2x PCIe Gen 4 lanes to use two NVME (Gen 3.0)drives, you dont loose any bandwidth here.
Or
You get 2x PCIe Gen 4 + 2x SATA and again if you install a NVME Gen 3 drive you dont loose performance having both the NVME + 2x SATA

 

[DrMrLordX]

B550 will have affordable offerings just like B450.

Maybe. It took ASMedia forever to get PCIe 4.0 working because . . . reasons? I expect the entry price for B550 to at least be $10-$20 higher than B450.

Your assertions are incorrect. I don’t think you understand how things work on the technical side.

You may as well give up. ASMedia takes a whole year getting B550 ready because of PCIe 4.0 compliance, and that's just to one PCIe slot and one NVMe slot. Somehow motherboard OEMs are supposed to do this - and more! - using an old ASMedia chipset with no external support. Yeah, I totally see ASRock doing that and not screwing it up royally. Wait, no I don't. When it's obvious the OEMs didn't even want to support Matisse on B450 anyway. The only thing AMD "forced" anyone to do was support Matisse on every AM4 chipset except A320.

Of course the forum's one A320 fan pitched a fit when that happened too. Reeeeeeeee

LMAO!!! Outrage definitely not found.

Yup. More manufactured outrage, just like when A320 wouldn't support Matisse.

Was B550 delayed?

Essentially. Someone may be trying to save face, but the cat is out of the bag: ASMedia did a crap job, forcing AMD to sort out x570 on their own and delay B550.

 

[Rigg]

You can get 2x + 2x PCIe Gen 4 lanes to use two NVME (Gen 3.0)drives, you dont loose any bandwidth here.
Or
You get 2x PCIe Gen 4 + 2x SATA and again if you install a NVME Gen 3 drive you dont loose performance have both the NVME + 2x SATA

Yes you do because you can't run the device at 4 x 3.0 in a 2 x 4.0 slot.

 

[AtenRa]

Yes you do because you can't run the device at 4 x 3.0 in a 2 x 4.0 slot.

Ahh hell my bad, I was thinking about the bandwidth and forgot of the lanes.

 

[Shivansps]

Maybe. It took ASMedia forever to get PCIe 4.0 working because . . . reasons? I expect the entry price for B550 to at least be $10-$20 higher than B450.



You may as well give up. ASMedia takes a whole year getting B550 ready because of PCIe 4.0 compliance, and that's just to one PCIe slot and one NVMe slot. Somehow motherboard OEMs are supposed to do this - and more! - using an old ASMedia chipset with no external support. Yeah, I totally see ASRock doing that and not screwing it up royally. Wait, no I don't. When it's obvious the OEMs didn't even want to support Matisse on B450 anyway. The only thing AMD "forced" anyone to do was support Matisse on every AM4 chipset except A320.

Of course the forum's one A320 fan pitched a fit when that happened too. Reeeeeeeee

Can you please explain why or how the B550 chipset that has no PCI-E 4.0 support on its own AT ALL has anything to do with using the PCI-E 4.0 lanes that comes FROM THE CPU? im still waiting, i really want to see you try to explain this noncense.

Yup. More manufactured outrage, just like when A320 wouldn't support Matisse.

The 300 series outrage caused AMD to backtrack their desicion to drop support, you pick the A320 no one mentioned because reasons. Maybe, just maybe, instead of this senceless defense of AMD you would join, we can get B450 to support Zen 3 and B550 to have the retrocompatibility of X570. Because if that happens is not going to be thanks to you blaming Asmedia for everything.

 

[Rigg]

Can you please explain why the B550 chipset that has no PCI-E 4.0 support on his own AT ALL has anything to do with using the PCI-E 4.0 lanes that comes FROM THE CPU? im still waiting, i really want to see you explaining this noncense.

Because that would make it too close to an x570 and would require a more expensive chip. The x570 uses an I/O die identical to the one on the CPU and active cooling to achieve this on x570. That's part of why it costs so much.

 

[AtenRa]

Because that would make it too close to an x570 and would require a more expensive chip. The x570 uses an I/O die identical to the one on the CPU and active cooling to achieve this on x570. That's part of why it costs so much.

Hes asking why the B550 motherboards can use the PCIe Gen 4 from the CPU and B450 cannot do the same.

 

[Rigg]

Hes asking why the B550 motherboards can use the PCIe Gen 4 from the CPU and B450 cannot do the same.

I'm not an engineer but the simple answer is probably because the board layouts and trace paths weren't designed for it. AMD put the squash on PCIE gen 4 on the older boards because it didn't work right and wasn't worth the headache. Squashing it as product segmentation is a BS conspiracy theory.

 

[Shivansps]

I'm not an engineer but the simple answer is probably because the board layouts and trace paths weren't designed for it. AMD put the squash on PCIE gen 4 on the older boards because it didn't work right and wasn't worth the headache. Squashing it as product segmentation is a BS conspiracy theory.

Thats exactly what happened, and it is what AMD pointed out when they AGESA blocked older chipsets. But the point here is that OEM could have re-designed the B450 mbs for it, and those MBs would have been in the market for a long time ago by now, but since it was agesa blocked, they could not do that. When you consider that it does not look so much as BS.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Can you please explain why the B550 chipset that has no PCI-E 4.0 support on his own AT ALL has anything to do with using the PCI-E 4.0 lanes that comes FROM THE CPU? im still waiting.

Routing. The chipset and CPU socket don't exist in a vacuum. All motherboard designs come from a reference design, which is (in this case) going to come from ASMedia and AMD. All the reports were saying that ASMedia was struggling with PCIe 4.0 on B550.

The 300 series outrage caused AMD to backtrack their desicion to drop support, you pick the A320 no one mentioned because reasons.

Heh. Really? We had page upon page of fighting about Matisse support on A320. It got pretty heated!